Prophets and Ex Mormons

[LilylovesJesus]

I'm new here. Just to preface, I am a Convert of five years, and for the first time I am concerend about my testimony...working on this by asking questions.

My husband shutters to think I do this, but I second guess decisions past prophets have made. I also anticipate future prophets possibly making mistakes. These chosen men are human. They are not perfect. What a huge responsibility it must be. We are taught to follow the prophet. What if the prophet is wrong about something? We are told to follow them anyway...I think that is the answer, but it's a hard answer for me to accept. I often wonder if past prophets were wrong about certain issues....for example not allowing black men to hold the priesthood...I know that's a whole other can of worms I'm sure.

Second thing. I would like advice on how to repel the lurings of anti Mormon websites. I do NOT seek them out. But I am currently having such a hard time...mentally and spiritually. I was trying to find more info on priesthood blessings, and came upon a website I thought was Mormon friendly, but of course it was some ex Mormon. Right away on the website it had a section of fast facts about the church....things like Joseph Smith had a slave sealed to him, etc...some things were so silly, but I admit other "facts" that popped up made me wonder. It's the LAST thing I needed to see considering I am fighting a fading testimony...trying to hold on to it, make things better.

Thoughts?

I'm sure many of you are rolling your eyes as I am surely another typical convert asking age old questions. Please know I am sincere in trying to learn as much as I can by going to the source...in this case, hopefully other faithful members who can offer their advice.

[marshac]

I can't speak about the prophets being wrong since i'm not yet a member. I will however say that the mormon stories podcasts (some of which can still be found at Stay LDS) helped me reconcile a lot of the issues I came across and put things into a perspective I could understand and also made sense. Others on this forum also know of additional resources which I personally have found very useful as well.

I hope you find the answers you're looking for Lily. Having been to the ex mormon sites as well, I can tell you that you'll find very few answers to what you're seeking there.

[LittleWyvern]

My husband shutters to think I do this, but I second guess decisions past prophets have made. I also anticipate future prophets possibly making mistakes. These chosen men are human. They are not perfect. What a huge responsibility it must be. We are taught to follow the prophet. What if the prophet is wrong about something? We are told to follow them anyway...I think that is the answer, but it's a hard answer for me to accept. I often wonder if past prophets were wrong about certain issues....for example not allowing black men to hold the priesthood...I know that's a whole other can of worms I'm sure.

I agree with you partly here... past prophets were wrong sometimes, but that doesn't mean they aren't prophets. One needs to consider the environment, culture, and influences of the prophets when they made decisions that may seem foolish by today's standards. The wonderful thing about this church is that we are still actively learning. Generally, I take comfort in the fact that it is up to the current prophet to expound, explain, and even sometimes correct statements made by past prophets. If you have any questions about a certain commandment, statement, or anything else by the prophet, you could try what I do and pray specifically for a testimony of that commandment or statement. Just ask if it's true or not, the same way you'd ask if a certain scripture is true. :)

Second thing. I would like advice on how to repel the lurings of anti Mormon websites. I do NOT seek them out. But I am currently having such a hard time...mentally and spiritually. I was trying to find more info on priesthood blessings, and came upon a website I thought was Mormon friendly, but of course it was some ex Mormon. Right away on the website it had a section of fast facts about the church....things like Joseph Smith had a slave sealed to him, etc...some things were so silly, but I admit other "facts" that popped up made me wonder. It's the LAST thing I needed to see considering I am fighting a fading testimony...trying to hold on to it, make things better.

Just consider the source and the goal of each site before considering the things being sold as facts there. If you have a question about a certain thing, FAIRwiki is a good fact-checking source.

[unixknight]

The thing is, anti-Mormon sites are really good at taking facts and reworking them in such a way as to seem a lot worse or a lot different than the reality.

I once read a really interesting blog about some of the things about the early days of the Restoration where the brethren were still trying to figure things out and made mistakes form time to time, doing things that by today's standards are pretty silly or even shocking. The thing to remember is that the prophets had to learn just like we do, and they put their pants on one leg at a time just as we do.

Anti-Mormon websites are the masters of the Strawman. They present the Prophets as people who are absolutely infallible then present evidence to prove they aren't. Well, nobody ever claimed the prophets to be infallible. The prophets can mess up, and when they do they're rebuked for it. Joseph Smith even wrote in the D&C about how he was rebuked by the Lord more than once, and that's perfectly fine. Kinda reminds me of a quote... I don't remember where I heard it but it applies here:

"Catholics insist the Pope is infallible and nobody believes them.

Mormons insist the Prophet isn't and nobody believes them."

Remember, the anti-LDS sites aren't there to benefit YOU. They're there to self-validate by tearing down t he faith of others. Some have become quite good at it.

[Guest Godless]

As an ex-mormon, I strongly encourage you to avoid the anti- websites. They are filled with bitter apostates who are so blinded by their hatred of the Church that they will twist facts and build strawmen to try to discredit it. If you want advice on how to repel the appeal of such websites, you need only remember the extreme bias that they hold. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Church is true, because I honestly don't believe that, but it's not my place to tell you that. You have to make that decision on your own. You say that you are a convert, which tells me that you've already made the decision once. Try to take yourself back to that moment. Do you currently feel the same way about the Church as you did when you were baptized? If so, then stick with that feeling. If not, then don't be afraid to ask difficult questions. Personally, I fully believe in questioning everything that comes from people in authority. But I also believe in doing so with an open mind. Try to figure out for yourself what's true. And if you think it'll help, pray about it.

[a-train]

Trust in the LORD, not in man. Read, pray, ponder, meditate. Let yourself be empowered by the LORD not dependent on others. The writings of the prophets cannot be overstated. Remember Lehi's vision? What is it that God has given us to guide us through the darkness?

If you are experiencing doubt, it is because the LORD has something to show you, just as He did Thomas. Go to Him, see what great things He has in store.

-a-train

[LilylovesJesus]

I am so sorry for assuming that non members would not have useful advice for me at this time. How small minded of me. Thank you everyone for your thoughts. You have no idea how much conversation helps. I'll try and think before I type next time!

[Maxel]

LilylovesJesus-

Be cautious. As has been mentioned above, anti-Mormon sites are exactly that- anti-Mormon. They're not pro-Christ or pro-Truth or pro-Anything- their (usually) stated and (always) sole purpose is to tear down the faith of the Mormon church.

As for your specific questions- be cautious about them too. The answer to many of those questions cannot be healthily understood except by one who has partaken sufficiently of the milk of the Gospel and is ready for a little bit of meat. Pray to God about whether it is right to begin asking questions- when it is right, He will let you know. When you are ready, go to a faithful Mormon source FIRST. I cannot, as someone who went the route of visiting the anti-Mormon sites to try to find truth, stress that point enough. Your testimony is a living thing; Christ's Truth is the water of life, and deceit is the poison of death. The more outrageous the lie, the greater harm it gives to your testimony. There is no shame in that; in fact that truth gives credence to LDS theology and claims- despite what detractors might say.

If you have specific questions, and you feel that you are spiritually prepared to seek their answers, then I suggest trying to find as non-biased a source of historical information as possible, and then finding a faithful Mormon source to help you reach your own interpretations of the facts. The prophets may have been wrong in the past- but no official declaration or practice of the Church has ever been in error before God. As a faithful Mormon, I can still testify that after looking into the most controversial issues of our collective past, including the black priesthood ban, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, polygamy, etc. One important fact to note is that the Church itself is not yet perfect- it is the bride preparing for the bridegroom (Christ), but she is not yet prepared. Root your testimony in the basics- Christ, prophets, and scripture- and you will not be led astray.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Maxel
Clarification

[skippy740]

Just remember that an unchallenged testimony is a testimony built on sand.

This process you're going through will help you be stronger and more convicted of the truths you find.

[rameumptom]

While prophets are not perfect, and occasionally give wrong advice, the vast majority of the time, it is spot on.

Just look at the advice given in the last 20 years or so. 1998, Pres Hinckley warned of great financial struggles and to get out of debt. 1980s, Pres Benson warned us about heeding the Book of Mormon, or to be cursed (and just look at how many people have turned from Christ and towards materialism and other gods during that time). The 1995 Proclamation on the Family is very prevalent in our sex-addicted society today.

I could go on, but I'm am amazed at how prescient their counsel and advice has been and believe it will continue guiding us, if we listen closely.

[LDSVALLEY]

I am someone who always looks for the hidden agenda in people, when Missionaries knocked on my door twelve years ago I told them good luck cause they didn't have a prayer of tricking me into their church. I just taught the Gospel Principle lesson on Prophets on Earth yesterday. I asked what a Prophet was and after getting all the Gospel answers I spent an equal amount of time reviewing the fact that they are also human and men with all the problems and failings of men and humans. The investigators and new members understood however, that revelations for the church do not come from a human man who is subject to human failings but from the mouth of God.

We use two terms for the leader of the church on earth. When he is acting under the direction of God as his messenger he is our Prophet. When he is acting as the administrator head of the church he is the President.

Our President and our past presidents can error or misinterpret things because they are spiritual men but men relying on guidance just as we all have available to us. Our Prophet and past Prophets can not error or misinterpret things because they are communicating spirit to spirit with Heavenly Father. They are following his direct will not their own.

As a priesthood holder I have to question the thought that major issues of the church that the Prophets had us follow might have been wrong. To me, for the time it was on Earth, polygamy made sense as a way to care for the many sisters without husbands at that time. A time before welfare, insurance etc. Were those faithful women to be denied the blessings of being cared for and nurtured? I am happy I do not live in the time when it was upon the Earth. I would think it a difficult task to undertake and hope to never have to.

I have heard the Black issue many times, I also have friends in the church who are black as well. Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought the revelation that gave the priesthood to blacks was not about blacks at all. Prior to the late 1970's 78? 79?, the priesthood was only given to male members of two tribes. As a white male not of either tribe if I had joined the church then I also would not have the priesthood.

Again if you look at the world prior to that revelation it makes sense to me. Before computers, internet, cheap long distance phones, cable, cheaper ways to produce magazines, textbooks etc it would have been almost impossible to keep the Priesthood from straying if it had been open to everyone. The church leadership would not have been able to maintain close enough contact and direction to prevent unintentional changes in the gospel from individual interpretation. Our Bishop must always be on guard for priesthood misremembering or mixing in personal doctrine with gospel doctrine. Without the ability to communicate easily and quickly it would have been impossible. Remember not all Wards are close like in Utah. The border from our chapel to the end of our WARD territory is 30 minutes on a 60mph highway either way. To drive around our stake area at the same speed would be 10 hours.

When we look at "mistakes of the past" we need to remember that revelation was for that time and place and in the context of the need at that time. Polygamy for example was provided by God at different times in history and forbidden at others as the needs of his children changed. That has never altered the Gospel of the Lord, just individual need.

Last thing and then I'll stop, I learned why some " mistakes" at the local level appear to happen. I almost left the church three years ago over a mistake that called my wife to something we both felt and prayed and recieved that she should not have accepted but did because the bishop asked her.

Recently in a Ward Welfare meeting a leader said they had prayed about an arrangement for home or visit teaching and this is what they were going to do. The Bishop vetoed that idea, the person was unhappy and asked why as they had gotten an answer that this was correct. The Bishop said that it was bad for those who were on the receiving end.

I pondered why two leaders would get two different directions about the same issue and after prayer understood. The auxileary leader had prayed about helping the person they were trying to get active with home or visit teaching. The Lord told them that yes it would help that person. The Bishop had prayed about the needs of the person recieving the visit which it would not be good for. We have to be careful about what exactly we pray for.

The "mistake" with my wife was easy to understand now. The organization she was called to was not doing well, the president was well intended but not organized or structured. My wife was a great match to resolve those issues and help the president. But for her it was a bad situation that caused much strife in her and my life because it was not what she needed at that time.

It is the viewpoint that is important, I am positive the revelations from Prophets is 100% right, I just might not always have the proper viewpoint to realize it. So I just do it and trust the Lord.

[Guest missingsomething]

You asked, what if a prophet gives wrong advice.... I am not exactly onboard with prophets giving wrong advice... because they are the direct mouth piece of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, I have to say that I believe that things come from the Prophets are part of the over-all plan. Do they change? Yep. Do the changes cause some to leave the church? You betcha. Does it mean it was "wrong"... Not sure on that. I am too weak minded to be able to grasp the utterlly full meaning of all that goes on. But I have prayed for faith in the prophets and the spirit has witnessed to me that they are men of God and I need to strive to be in tune with what they say.

Can I make a suggestion? If you are not temple worthy now, I would ask you to challenge yourself to get there. Take all these questions, concerns, worries - to the temple and pray on them.

There are SO many in the church who believe (naively in my opinion) that their testimony is unshakable. It is ok to question principles of the gospel or for things to not "set well" with you. I would say, if you blindly accepted everything - you are not heeding the counsel of the church. You must continue to pray on prophetic statements. The spirit will continue to witness for you.

As for anti-mormons - I used to always get upset when people told me not to talk to anti-mormons. Why not? I would say... Then I realized (through prayer)... satan knows us - personally - he knows our weaknesses - and Anti's are solely enlisted to pull people away from the church... they are not there to share their religion. Many of them as maxel so wonderfully said... are so full of hate.

I think this will be a great site for you as we all seem to be very respectful, even if we agree to disagree.

Pray. Pray. Pray. Pray to your Heavenly Father as though he was a close friend with whom you are confiding. Let him know the fears and worries of your heart. THen do your part - go to church, read your scriptures, and if you want to learn more about topics... go to lds.org and search past articles and talks.

Good luck and welcome!

[Guest missingsomething]

ARRGGHHH... I dont see a THANKS button for LDSVALLEY - so I will say it here... THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. AWESOME!

[Maxel]

Formulas of action for the converted Mormon with the Gift of the Holy Ghost:

Listening to the Holy Ghost + Always listening to prophets = Success!

Listening to the Holy Ghost + Sometimes listening to prophets = Partial success.

Not listening to the Holy Ghost + Listening to prophets = Partial success.

Not listening to the Holy Ghost + Sometimes listening to prophets = Failure...

Never listening to prophets = Failure...

Never listening to anything = Double failure...

If you'll notice, the only real formula for success (for Mormons with the Holy Ghost) includes listening to the Holy Ghost and the prophets at the same time. The prophets present the messages we need to hear; through the synchronization of the Spirit, we process and learn what we, in our personal lives, need to know to attain celestial glory.

This has been 'Math time with Maxel'.

[Elgama]

President Monson is our prophet in 2009, I firmly believe he has been given the keys and therefore greater understanding in the way back to Heavenly Father than I have. I also believe being a good guy anything he does do will not remove himself from that light and if he did I wouldn't have been weeping over my General Conference CD this morning (I am pregnant and hormonal)...... so even with just suggestions its OK to follow him because he is doing the best he can with the light he has,

I am sure 20 years after his death I may look back with the prophet of that day and find some his advice to be wrong at that point in my life, but thats because as humans our understanding should increase down the generations........ but he is what we have in 2009 and I love the way he is taking the church.

Concerning anti mormon sites they can be as addictive as porn and best way is to just avoid them as much as you can, use General Conference and Church Handbooks as your guide and scriptures as the base. Don't forget to pray and read the scriptures, do FHE etc these are things that increase the whisperings of the spirit and allow you to understand best what you are reading or come across and allow you to grow and understand the gospel more

-Charley

[cjmaldrich]

D&C 6:

22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

(Doctrine and Covenants 6)

I suppose that we can divide the realm of inquiry into an intellectual field and a spiritual field. While we are in school we are seeking knowledge primarily in the intellectual field, which knowledge probably comes in most instances by reason and through the senses.

This is a tremendously vital and important thing—we encourage it and we urge it upon all people who desire to progress and have enlightenment and advancement in their lives.

But my suggestion is that we need to devote an increasingly large portion of our time in the actual pursuit of knowledge in the spiritual realm. When we deal with spiritual realities, we are not talking about gaining something by reason alone, we are not talking about conveying in some way knowledge to the mind or the spirit that is within us through the senses alone, but we are talking about revelation. We are talking about learning how to come to a knowledge of the things of God by attuning the spirit that we have to the eternal Spirit of God. Such a course, primarily, is the channel and way that revelation comes to an individual.

It does not concern me very much that somebody writes or evaluates or analyzes either a doctrinal or a Church problem of any sort when he does it from the standpoint of the intellect alone. No one questions that everything in the spiritual realm is in total and complete accord with the intellectual realities that we arrive at through reason, but when the two are compared and evaluated and weighed as to their relative merits, the things that are important are in the spiritual realm and not the intellectual. The things of God are known only by the Spirit of God.

It is true that you can reason about doctrinal matters, but you do not get religion into your life until it becomes a matter of personal experience—until you feel something in your soul, until there has been a change made in your heart, until you become a new creature of the Holy Ghost. Providentially, every member of the Church has the opportunity to do this because, in connection with baptism, every member of the Church has the hands of a legal administrator placed on his head, and he is given the promise, “Receive the Holy Ghost.” He thus obtains “the gift of the Holy Ghost” which, by definition, means that he then has the right to the constant companionship of this member of the Godhead, based upon his personal righteousness and faithfulness.

(LDS.org - New Era Article - How to Get Personal Revelation)

There is enough out there that you can read about whether prophets have ever been "wrong" or "right." We could analyze and compare modern prophets to ancient prophets as far as "failed" prophecies are concerned... But will it fix your testimony? Is a prophet a prophet only if they meet criteria X, Y, and Z? Is a prophet a prophet only if they make zero mistakes and preach only what the majority of Christians want to hear?

If you need any more witness, follow the Lord's advice and think back to when you first gained your testimony. If it's still not enough, perhaps you could consider putting them to the test. Take their words (I mean things that we could consider doctrine, like scriptures, church magazines, conference talks -- NOT personal journals or non-doctrinal publications) and apply the principles to your life... See if you don't grow in spirit from following them...

It's helped me to be able to logically think about my church and what it really is (as opposed to what the world says it is or should be)... But it hasn't been what's strengthened my testimony. That will come only by faith and inspiration... A spiritual experience as Elder McConkie put it...

[blusun7]

Here you go . read the whole thing

Mormon Prophets, Called of God but Fallible: Why the Church of Jesus Christ Is and Can Be True even though Church Leaders and Other Mormons Make Mistakes

Mormon/LDS Answers: Questions about LDS Prophets and the Mormons

If any prophecy of a so-called prophet proves to be wrong, shouldn't we reject him? Isn't that the standard of Deut. 18:22?

Deut. 18:22 reads:

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This doesn't exactly say that one mistake makes a false prophet. James L. Mays, editor of Harper's Bible Commentary (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1988, p. 226), writes:

Prophecy in the names of other gods is easily rejected, but false prophecy in God's name is a more serious matter. This dilemma requires the application of a pragmatic criterion that, although clearly useless for judgments on individual oracles, is certainly a way to evaluate a prophet's overall performance.

The problem with applying Deut. 18:22 to a single, individual prophecy is that some prophecies can be fulfilled in complex ways or at times much later than anticipated by the hearers. Moreover, God sometimes appears to reverse certain prophecies, as He says He is free to do in Jeremiah 18:7-10:

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Be careful in how you apply Deut. 18:22, for you threaten to reject some true prophets in the Bible! There are examples where a true prophet prophesied something which did not happen as he stated, to the best of our knowledge. An example is found in the story of Jonah, who was told by God to prophecy to the people of Nineveh. Jonah prophesied that the people would be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4) - no loopholes were offered, just imminent doom. God changed things, however, when the people repented and He chose to spare them - much to the chagrin of that imperfect (yet still divinely called) prophet, Jonah. Jonah, in fact, was "displeased ... exceedingly" and "very angry" (Jonah 4:1) about this change from God, perhaps because it made Jonah look bad. In spite of an "incorrect" prophecy and in spite of the obvious shortcomings of Jonah, he was a prophet of God and the Book of Jonah in the Bible is part of the Word of God. Yet if that sacred text had been lost, only to be restored by Joseph Smith, perhaps as part of the Book of Mormon, it would be assaulted as the most damning evidence against Joseph Smith. Just imagine how the critics would dismiss the Book of Jonah as being evil, contradictory, ludicrous, anti-Biblical, unscientific, and unchristian (of course, there are plenty already who reject it as it is, unable to believe major parts of the story).

The prophet Ezekiel provides another example of how true prophets may err or give prophecies of uncertain accuracy. In Ezekiel chapters 26, 27, and 28, we read that Tyre (a fortified island city) would be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. The riches of Tyre would go to Babylon (Ezek. 26:12). Nebuchadnezzar's army did lay siege to Tyre, and its inhabitants were afflicted, apparently so much that they shaved their heads bald, as prophesied in Ezek. 27:31. However, the 13-year Babylonian siege apparently was not quite as successful as Ezekiel had predicted, perhaps because the land-based tactics of Babylonian sieges were less effective against a fortified island city with significant maritime power. The result of the siege may have been a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder, for Ezekiel 29:17-20 reports that the predicted plundering did not take place. Almost as if in compensation, the Lord now announces that He will give Egypt to the Babylonians, which is the theme of chapter 29. Here are verses 17-20:

17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.

20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.

Yes, Tyre was eventually destroyed, but its complete destruction apparently did not occur during the Babylonian siege, and certainly the Babylonian army did not get the riches of Tyre as has been prophesied. It is Ezekiel himself who reports this "prophetic failure." (The analysis above is derived from an article by Daniel C. Peterson in Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 7, No. 2, 1995, pp. 49-50.)

D.C. Pyle has also commented on Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre:

Of course, my favorite part of the prophecy against Tyre is the part found in Ezekiel 26:14 and 27:36, where the Lord states that Tyre would "not be rebuilt" and "exist no more forever."

Of course, after it was left unconquered by the Babylonian armies, it eventually fell to the Greeks under Alexander and was destroyed by his armies.

But then, the city which was never to be rebuilt forever rose again to wealth and power in 125 BCE! During the Roman period, the city rose to even more prominence and had a Christian community living in the mainland portion. Muslims reduced the city to ashes in 1291. It was rebuilt again sometime after this. In 1983, it had an estimated population of 23,000.

The prophecy stated that the place would "be a bare rockface for spreading nets and would never be rebuilt" but today, the place has become a fairly important maritime center.

To those who refuse to believe that Tyre still exists today, pictures can be see at Tyre (Sour) City, Lebanon. Note that there are many buildings - it has been rebuilt. A literal interpretation of Ezekiel's prophecy coupled with a belief in Biblical inerrancy leads to obvious problems.

My purpose in discussing the prophecies about Tyre is not to question the truthfulness of the Bible (it is true - we just need to struggle to understand it properly, as we must with all scripture and all prophecy, and we need to understand its potential limitations). My primary purpose in discussing Tyre is to point out that an overly critical attitude and a strict application of Deut. 18:22 may reject even true, Biblical prophets. If we try hard enough to find reasons to reject a prophet, we will surely succeed - but beware lest we judge unwisely and reject those whom God has sent and anointed, even though they be mortal and fallible. As for Tyre never being rebuilt, I think it's fair to mention that Hebrew writers used extreme words like "never" or "all" or "forever" in a rather loose way. Tyre was "never" to rebuilt and animal sacrifices were to continue "forever" - but these expressions can best be understood as figures of speech rather than absolutes. But if we're going to take the reasonable, thoughtful path of understanding the Bible rather than looking for apparent flaws to condemn it out of hand, we should extend the same courtesy to the Book of Mormon and the words of modern prophets.

Another example to consider is the prophet Jeremiah - a great and inspired prophet - who prophesied that king Zedekiah would "die in peace" (Jer. 34:4-5). Critics could argue that this prophecy did not prove to be true, for Zedekiah saw his sons killed by the conquering Babylonians and was himself blinded and put in prison, where he died in captivity - not in peace (Jer. 52:10-11). Of course, the point is that he would not be killed by the sword, but die of natural causes - albeit in prison - yet to the critics, it may look like a case of a false prophecy. This case is certainly less clear-cut than the prophecy of Ezekiel discussed above, yet also serves to warn us against harsh judgments.

Many LDS critics attempt to condemn Joseph Smith using a standard that would, if applied to Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Jonah, also condemn the Old Testament as a fraud.

[blusun7]

You will be challenged in your testimony of the church. Satan will tempt you, but you have to remember why you joined. You wont understand everything right away. I think i did the same thing. It okay to challenge yourself it is normal. There are answers in many places. I found the one above and it made sense. Joseph Smith wasnt the only one made mistakes. The crazy thing is the bible tells us not to afraid of them. God knows how we are and think. This why we have scriptures.

[cjmaldrich]

bluesun7, if I can add a little P.S. to your post... I'll just hope it's okay, because I'm about to anyway

Prophets generally voice warnings from God, not just predict the future... Just because a prophet says something will happen doesn't take away the agency of the people to a.) repent, thus taking away some impending doom; or b.) turn to wickedness, thus taking away some impending blessing...

I would say that there are just too many variables to consider to even fairly judge whether an unfulfilled prophecy is "failed" or not... I'm sure that in an ideal world, any prophetic revelation of warning would become what most people would call "failed revelation," and any revelations of blessings would come to pass every time.

So it goes back to the spirit. We MUST gain a witness for ourselves, through personal revelation, that these people are prophets... Without that spirit, we could take anyone who has ever claimed to be a prophet and somehow justify their legitimacy or their erring.

Edited March 3, 2009 by cjmaldrich

[LilylovesJesus]

Thank you...each and every one of you.

I hope I have not offended anyone. I do not wish to disrespect our current Prophet or those who came before.

My journey as a member of this church is what I make it. This, I know...just need to remind myself.

These questions have never shaken me until now, and it is my desire to find a way to address them....I have moments where I doubt, and I am not one who can keep that doubt tucked away. It's like addiction...often the best way to stay out of trouble is to talk about it....I have always enjoyed every side of the story. In every other aspect of life, when I am making a decision I look at every option, every view point, every possibility. With the gospel, I have done the same thing. I see that only God can give me the answers I truly desire.

I know as a member of this church I need to learn how to better run on faith and lean not on my own understanding...something that is hard for me, but that's part of my journey I suppose.

I still wonder....when non members ask me about church history, things the prophets have revealed...I stumble....will I ever be able to answer their questions without feeling completely stupid and regretful the next day? I don't know how the missionaries do it, I really don't. I would be a TERRIBLE missionary in that regard. When others challenge my faith in this gospel, I immediately go on the defense, but ultimately feel defeated. How can I answer these questions when I am so far from knowing how to answer them for myself? And even when I do know the answers, I am not eloquent in my response. Some may think five years in the church is a long time...it often still feel so new to me. I am not a scholar in any way, shape, or form.

When I joined the church, I joined on blind faith. THings are different now. I need to adjust and adapt.

I know members who get angry at questions I have put out there, but I never mean harm. Sometimes we have to stumble and make fools of ourselves before we can walk without shame. For an adult, I sure feel like a kid...just blurting out questions that come to my mind...I just want to know. I'm sure God never intended for us to know everything.

You are all right about the anti sites. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to run into them. There was a time when I would be able to spot them, and instantly look away. It is amazing to me that people spend so much time and energy with what they hate rather than advertising what they love.

Finally, I think I need to work on strengthening my testimony of Joseph Smith and go from there. Boy there is so much to learn, so little time...

[Elgama]

Finally, I think I need to work on strengthening my testimony of Joseph Smith and go from there. Boy there is so much to learn, so little time...

You need to ask your questions and you did the right thing noone on the forum will be discouraged by them and you don't cause dissention in your home ward.

My thing is best place to strengthen your testimony in my opinion is not in Joseph Smith he is human and will disappoint you if he is the mainstay in anyway.

My advice is start with the basics and be sure of the Holy Ghost so you know the Church is where God wants you, because whilst you may get angry with him from time to time, once you truly know he is there guiding you, then whether or not Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or President Monson are the Word of God is almost not important its important because God says this is the way.

I have a confession whilst I found Joseph Smith an easy testimony as I firmly believed God would not leave us without prophets, which was my main beef with Islam, it took me 14 years after my Baptism to gain a strong testimony of the Book of Mormon, I ended up praying about it and recording in my journal and gaining my testimony chapter by chapter. It also took me a long time to learn to say the Church is True not just the Church is True for me - That came as a result of learning about the priesthood and seeing it work in my life.

-Charley

[LilylovesJesus]

Wow Charley...wonderful, honest reply. Thank you so much!

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think it helps to remember that a prophet is a human being and as fragile and fallible as any of us. As a child I used to have this image of the Old and New Testament prophets as amazingly strong men both physically and spiritually, who could do no wrong and always followed God. That was the sort of thing I'd been taught as a child. Then when I grew older and read the Bible for myself, not just the children's storybook versions, I realised that it was littered with people who were far from perfect. Moses wasn't really Charlton Heston, he was a man who doubted his own ability and struggled to speak. Paul complained of a thorn in his flesh. Peter denied Christ. Jonah didn't want to go to Ninevah. David fell into temptation...................all human.

That didn't mean they were not prophets when they obeyed God and acted on his behalf. Their failings didn't lessen any of the righteous things they did. So if a modern day prophet proves to be human he is no different to the prophets of old.

However, when a prophet speaks on behalf of Heavenly Father then there is no mistake. What is revealed is right - for the people at the time. There may be things in the past that we do not understand looking back on them but that is because we see them from our persepective and not from a divine perspective. Heavenly Father doesn't need to give us the explanations for why he does things. We just need to believe that he does things which are right for us at the time. When a black friend of mine was asked how he felt about the priesthood having been withheld from his race for a time he replied, "That was because the white man wasn't ready for us."

[LDSVALLEY]

I teach Gospel Principle class. The first thing I did when called as Mission Leader was create a poster.

The only dumb question is the one you do not ask.

We all know lots about some things and little about others.

What you know about might be something I know nothing about.

We are here, all of us, to learn from each other.

I show it almost weekly.

[Hemidakota]

My husband shutters to think I do this, but I second guess decisions past prophets have made. I also anticipate future prophets possibly making mistakes. These chosen men are human. They are not perfect. What a huge responsibility it must be. We are taught to follow the prophet. What if the prophet is wrong about something? We are told to follow them anyway...I think that is the answer, but it's a hard answer for me to accept. I often wonder if past prophets were wrong about certain issues....for example not allowing black men to hold the priesthood...I know that's a whole other can of worms I'm sure.

Second thing. I would like advice on how to repel the lurings of anti Mormon websites. I do NOT seek them out. But I am currently having such a hard time...mentally and spiritually. I was trying to find more info on priesthood blessings, and came upon a website I thought was Mormon friendly, but of course it was some ex Mormon. Right away on the website it had a section of fast facts about the church....things like Joseph Smith had a slave sealed to him, etc...some things were so silly, but I admit other "facts" that popped up made me wonder. It's the LAST thing I needed to see considering I am fighting a fading testimony...trying to hold on to it, make things better.

Thoughts?

I'm sure many of you are rolling your eyes as I am surely another typical convert asking age old questions. Please know I am sincere in trying to learn as much as I can by going to the source...in this case, hopefully other faithful members who can offer their advice.

Then you will have a hard time in following the Savior Himself. It is Him who chooses these men to reside over His church.

The question here. what is your testimony based on?