Sunstone?

[Janice]

I'm curious what anyone may know or think about the LDS group known as Sunstone. What little I've heard has not been positive, and from looking at their site I am not able to glean much.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Janice

[NeuroTypical]

They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals reasoning their way into apostacy. There's nothing wrong with being pseudo intellectual, and there's nothing wrong with using reason. But yes, there is something wrong with Sunstone.

[Guest Lexish]

I'd have to disagree with that last statement. My dad subscribed to Sunstone so I've read it a few times. It is true that often their articles are probably on the edge of wrong-minded, however it seemed to me that they mostly just try to get different opinions on issues. It is a "liberal" LDS school of thought.

[Janice]

They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals reasoning their way into apostacy. There's nothing wrong with being pseudo intellectual, and there's nothing wrong with using reason. But yes, there is something wrong with Sunstone.

This is what I've heard said about them in the past, almost word for word. And I must confess, when I hear this my mind jumps right to, "But WHY?" Like a child who's told, "Don't open that door!"

I guess I'm curious to learn more about what's so wrong with them without joining/subscribing, which it looks like you have to do to really learn what they are all about?

Thanks,

Janice

[pushka]

This may not help you much, but is an overview of the organisation and its magazine:

Sunstone Magazine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Maxel]

I think, when General Authorities have sometimes warned against symposiums held 'by Church members', they are referring in part to Sunstone. I've never read it (never felt inclined too) but I've read about it from various sources.

I know that some of my least favorite Mormon intellectuals- including John Dehlin, producer of the Mormon Stories podcast- have held prominent positions at Sunstone. My (least) favorite talk presentation by Dehlin was called (IIRC) 'How to Stay a Member of the Church After You've Lost Your Faith'. It seems to me that Sunstone has constantly danced with intellectual apostasy, although I can't say for sure as I've never read it. However, many of my favorite Mormon intellectuals, including regular FARMS contributor Daniel C. Peterson, have also been published in Sunstone before.

In the end, I think it's more prone to intellectual and spiritual 'tares' (as in the wheat and the tares parable) than other LDS-based intellectual journals, such as FARMS and FAIR, but like the Apocrypha there's good to be found if one is enlightened by the Spirit of God.

To get a more rounded and fair view, you should ask someone who's subscribed to them before.

[Janice]

In the end, I think it's more prone to intellectual and spiritual 'tares' (as in the wheat and the tares parable) than other LDS-based intellectual journals, such as FARMS and FAIR, but like the Apocrypha there's good to be found if one is enlightened by the Spirit of God.

I love FARMS. I usually turn to them when I can't find answers on puzzling gospel questions, and I almost always find the most excellent articles that give me a great deal to think about.

I was wondering if Sunstone might be more of the same... sounds like maybe not.

Janice

[Moksha]

I'm curious what anyone may know or think about the LDS group known as Sunstone. What little I've heard has not been positive, and from looking at their site I am not able to glean much.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Janice

I think that their summer conference and their journal can provide stimulating thought for thoughtful Mormons and those interested in Mormonism. Of course, I have not ran that opinion past my correlating committee yet.

[Maxel]

I love FARMS. I usually turn to them when I can't find answers on puzzling gospel questions, and I almost always find the most excellent articles that give me a great deal to think about.

I was wondering if Sunstone might be more of the same... sounds like maybe not.

Janice

FARMS is plenty for me. The articles I have perused from Sunstone deal with notably different topics, including current events and what the Church leaders are doing 'right' and what they're doing 'wrong'. In the end, I fear the general consensus of the spirit sustaining Sunstone is the belief that the Church is good but not wholly inspired by God. That is to say, the general spirit of Sunstone is the same spirit that lead to the first Apostasy from the Christian religion. For that reason, I avoid it. Others feel differently.

I have, however, learned some from a few Sunstone articles I didn't know and, when pondered in tandem with the scriptures, lead to a few insights. That's why I say it's like the Apocrypha: righteousness is there, but it's not the prevalent spirit, nor the spirit that will win out if it continues its current course.

[Maxel]

I think that their summer conference and their journal can provide stimulating thought for thoughtful Mormons and those interested in Mormonism. Of course, I have not ran that opinion past my correlating committee yet.

You have a correlating committee? I want one...

[Moksha]

That's why I say it's like the Apocrypha: righteousness is there, but it's not the prevalent spirit, nor the spirit that will win out if it continues its current course.

I think Joseph Smith said something to the affect of "take from it what you can" regarding the Apocrypha. Maybe Janice could do the same from Sunstone. :)

I suspect that some avid students of Mormon thought piggyback both the Sunstone and the FAIR conferences in the summertime, since one is right after the other. They might also take in some Temple sessions while visiting the Magic Valley for these conferences.

[NeuroTypical]

I guess I'm curious to learn more about what's so wrong with them without joining/subscribing, which it looks like you have to do to really learn what they are all about?

Oh, not at all - they have a lot of online resources. sunstonemagazine.com You can download most of their back issues in PDF format for free.

If you are well-versed in the issues they're talking about, you'll be able to find out 'what's so wrong with them', as you notice they seem to have their mind made up about the issue they're supposedly exploring openly. If you're unaware of an issue you discover in their magazine, you can be pretty sure that there's another side to the story that you're not being given a clue about.

It's true that there is no such thing as unbiased - everybody has a bias no matter who they are or what they're talking about. It's just that the Sunstone bias seems to be along the lines of "let's see how we can make or church or it's members look wrong or goofy".

It's commendable to want to see for yourself, instead of just taking some random loudmouth's word for it. :)

LM

[Janice]

including current events and what the Church leaders are doing 'right' and what they're doing 'wrong'

Oh.

[Just_A_Guy]

As I understand it, sometime back the GAs warned generically about non-faith promoting symposia. The result was that the faithful Mormons pretty much bailed from Sunstone. You'll see some particularly vitriolic Sunstone issues from the late nineties, during which time the lunatics were pretty much left running the asylum (as the saying goes).

I believe that John Delin is running things there at present, and one of his stated goals is/was to make the environment more welcoming for observant Mormons. There is some thought-provoking stuff that comes out of there, but IMHO the foundation is rotten to the core and you really can't build anything substantial on it anymore.

[Maxel]

I actually searched for 'John Dehlin' in Google, and his wikipedia page popped up. Apparently, he resigned from Sunstone early 2008/late 2007, whether you believe the Wikipedia page or its source (which is actually kinda suspicious in my opinion, but it's no matter). I was first exposed to him when I was looking for faith-promoting podcasts on iTunes. I downloaded Mormon Stories and had a hard time making up my mind about him. In the end, I realized that what he was doing- giving ex-Mormons a pulpit from which to spew their rhetoric- was doing more harm to my testimony than anything else. I clearly remember his interview with Eric Johnson- in which Johnson claimed that he loved the LDS Church and just wanted to see some positive changes (that is, change basic doctrines and practices to reflect his own philosophy)- and the alarming spiritual reaction I had to it. The clincher came when I saw the title of the presentation for Sunstone Dehlin gave about how to stay a member of the Church after losing one's faith.

[hordak]

They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals reasoning their way into apostacy. There's nothing wrong with being pseudo intellectual, and there's nothing wrong with using reason. But yes, there is something wrong with Sunstone.

I've heard that same thing said about Apologetic in general. And i think I have seen you on the MADB boards.

:D

[Maxel]

I've heard that same thing said about Apologetic in general.

Ah man, who's saying that? That's not cool... *cries* Do they realize that FARMS has been officially incorporated into the Neil A. Maxwell Institute by order of a General Authority (I think it was Hinckley)?

[applepansy]

Ah man, who's saying that? That's not cool... *cries* Do they realize that FARMS has been officially incorporated into the Neil A. Maxwell Institute by order of a General Authority (I think it was Hinckley)?

what is the source for this?

[Maxel]

what is the source for this?

The most authoritative source I can find:

FARMS Joins BYU Community

President Merrill J. Bateman has announced that the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) has accepted an invitation from the BYU Board of Trustees to become part of the university.

In extending the invitation, President Gordon B. Hinckley, chairman of the board and LDS Church president, said, "FARMS represents the efforts of sincere and dedicated scholars. It has grown to provide strong support and defense of the Church on a professional basis."

Found in the Spring 1998 Edition of the BYU Magazine.

[Snow]

They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals reasoning their way into apostacy. There's nothing wrong with being pseudo intellectual, and there's nothing wrong with using reason. But yes, there is something wrong with Sunstone.

Utter nonsense - biased and decidedly uninformed.

For whatever flaws it may have, Sunstone and Sunstone aficionados are full of vitality, scholarship, talent, curiosity and insight. My understanding of the gospel and testimony have grown immensely from my interaction with Sunstone - much more so than, say, from endless, lightweight and uninformative Priesthood quorum lessons.

[Just_A_Guy]

For whatever flaws it may have, Sunstone and Sunstone aficionados are full of vitality, scholarship, talent, curiosity and insight

And whining. Never forget the whining.

Seriously--the magazine issues I've seen use the term "bishop" like it's some sort of epithet of dishonor.

[Maxel]

For whatever flaws it may have, Sunstone and Sunstone aficionados are full of vitality, scholarship, talent, curiosity and insight. My understanding of the gospel and testimony have grown immensely from my interaction with Sunstone - much more so than, say, from endless, lightweight and uninformative Priesthood quorum lessons.

I dunno.. I'm the opposite: I've gotten a lot more out of those 'lightweight' Priesthood quorum lessons than I got out of the Sunstone articles I've read. Then again, gospel classes are structured so that the recipient only gets out as much as they put in- and I admit I put a lot 'into' those gospel lessons. As far as gospel scholarship goes, I prefer material from FARMS or FAIR. I'm one of those hopeless wanna-be apologists.

Frankly, I'm extremely nonplussed by Sunstone's presentation and the fact that prophets have warned against some kinds of intellectual symposiums. I cannot help but feel Sunstone falls into that category. The driving intellectual foundation seems to be the movement away from belief in the divinity of the Church. Moreover, the general feel of the whole organization is... eerie.

This has been "Opinion Time!" with Maxel.

[Maureen]

Posts by Maxel:

#6 - I think, when General Authorities have sometimes warned against symposiums held 'by Church members', they are referring in part to Sunstone. I've never read it (never felt inclined too) but I've read about it from various sources.

...It seems to me that Sunstone has constantly danced with intellectual apostasy, although I can't say for sure as I've never read it. However, many of my favorite Mormon intellectuals, including regular FARMS contributor Daniel C. Peterson, have also been published in Sunstone before....

#9 - ...The articles I have perused from Sunstone deal with notably different topics, including current events and what the Church leaders are doing 'right' and what they're doing 'wrong'. In the end, I fear the general consensus of the spirit sustaining Sunstone is the belief that the Church is good but not wholly inspired by God. That is to say, the general spirit of Sunstone is the same spirit that lead to the first Apostasy from the Christian religion. For that reason, I avoid it. Others feel differently.

I have, however, learned some from a few Sunstone articles I didn't know and, when pondered in tandem with the scriptures, lead to a few insights....

#22 - I dunno.. I'm the opposite: I've gotten a lot more out of those 'lightweight' Priesthood quorum lessons than I got out of the Sunstone articles I've read....

Okay Maxel you're confusing me. In Post# 6 it seems you are saying you have never read Sunstone, but then in later Posts you comment regarding Sunstone articles you have read. Have you read Sunstone or not?

M.

[Maxel]

Posts by Maxel:

#6 - I think, when General Authorities have sometimes warned against symposiums held 'by Church members', they are referring in part to Sunstone. I've never read it (never felt inclined too) but I've read about it from various sources.

...It seems to me that Sunstone has constantly danced with intellectual apostasy, although I can't say for sure as I've never read it. However, many of my favorite Mormon intellectuals, including regular FARMS contributor Daniel C. Peterson, have also been published in Sunstone before....

#9 - ...The articles I have perused from Sunstone deal with notably different topics, including current events and what the Church leaders are doing 'right' and what they're doing 'wrong'. In the end, I fear the general consensus of the spirit sustaining Sunstone is the belief that the Church is good but not wholly inspired by God. That is to say, the general spirit of Sunstone is the same spirit that lead to the first Apostasy from the Christian religion. For that reason, I avoid it. Others feel differently.

I have, however, learned some from a few Sunstone articles I didn't know and, when pondered in tandem with the scriptures, lead to a few insights....

#22 - I dunno.. I'm the opposite: I've gotten a lot more out of those 'lightweight' Priesthood quorum lessons than I got out of the Sunstone articles I've read....

Okay Maxel you're confusing me. In Post# 6 it seems you are saying you have never read Sunstone, but then in later Posts you comment regarding Sunstone articles you have read. Have you read Sunstone or not?

M.

Thanks for pointing out the equivocation. At the time I posted post #6, I had read snippets of various articles, as well as heard part of the transcript from one of the discussions (about the inoculations of Church members in regards to history). However, I have never sat down with a copy of Sunstone and read all the way through it. I didn't want to establish myself as some sort of pseudo-authority. I should have been more clear.

However, after posting post #6, I went to Sunstone's website to find another article to read and give the publication a fair chance. I found, and read a large part of, an article entitled Tracking the Sincere Believer: "Authentic" Religion and the Enduring Legacy of Joseph Smith Jr.. I stopped after reaching the author's comment "I don’t know whether Joseph Smith thought he heard the voice of God or not." Something inside of me rejected that statement. I came away feeling my initial ideas correct.

Specifically, the 'article' I mentioned in post #9 was actually the transcript of the discussion on the inoculation of the Saints against Church history. A bad habit of mine is occasionally substituting 'a' with 'a few' or 'some' when I'm in somewhat of a hurry.

As a side note, on my most recent foray to their website to get the link for the article I read, I was sidetracked by an article entitled When Virgins Collide about Mormon sexuality, and another called How the Prayers Ran Dry. The former gave intimate details on the author's wedding night and claimed the Church doesn't talk about marital sex enough (particularly the sexual joy women receive from it); the latter talks about how the author lost her faith in the power of prayer (although she's slowly getting back into the habit). All this combined evidence points to one conclusion: the foundational spirit of Sunstone is not one sent of God.

[Elphaba]

If you want to know what the Sunstone journal is like, you need to read it.

People are going to dislike it, and others are going to like it. I like it quite a bit, but since I'm not a member that probably isn't the best praise.

Sunstone will tackle any issue, regardless if its conclusions differ from an official Chruch position, or not. Many members like this approach, as they have had the same thoughts and questions.

For example, regarding the article about how to stay a mormon if you've lost your faith, you'd be shocked at how members are in this position, for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with them sinning or being offended.

Sunstone, by its nature, can address this dynamic, whereas normal Church venues usually will not.

Sunstone does serve a purpose for many members. Whether you'd agree or not is a good question. But I don't know how you'd answer it if you haven't actually read it.

Elphaba