Feelings vs absolute proof

[Dravin]

Easy, because every town mentioned in the Bible you can still visit today.

None of that proves the spiritual component though. I can visit places mentioned in greek mythology, doesn't prove it true.

*This is technically false nobody last I checked knows where Sodom is. I understand the sentiment, a lot of them have been found, but every is an absolute statement and is false.

[lilered]

I might add to what already has been accomplished thus far that we shouldn't forget that we donot claim that others have no truth. In fact the Lord indicated otherwise when he described them as having a "form of godliness".

Ones testimony is the converting power of the gospel to others. If this was not so, then our entire Missionary effort would not succeed. We did not invent Church Doctorine, it was revealed by God, we must teach it to all who will listen.

We have the responsilbity to bear witness of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the rest relies on the Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Ghost is able to work through the Light of Christ. Thus, a seed needs to be planted by us and the Lord will take care of the rest.

I believe that this is possible because in the premortal world we all knew the truth, and once that seed is planted here on earth by us with others, will cause many to know that what we testify too, is indeed true and they will know it is true by the Spirit of God working within them.

[PastorBob]

There are two bible verses which clearly and most accurately describe the difference between feelings and proof:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Hebrews 11: 6 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[beefche]

Thank you, PastorBob. How do you have faith in something? Meaning, how do you have faith that Jesus is your Savior and that the Bible is true?

[PastorBob]

Thank you, PastorBob. How do you have faith in something? Meaning, how do you have faith that Jesus is your Savior and that the Bible is true?

Through the proofs:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

[beefche]

But you didn't see Jesus performing those miracles. How do you know He is the Son of God and Savior?

edit: How does the Holy Spirit play into your beliefs? Does He testify to you? If so, how do you know?

p.s. Thank you for answering my questions.

Edited March 22, 2009 by beefche
another thought

[PastorBob]

Not Jesus Himself, no. But, are not the miracles worked through his followers enough, when they are done in such a manner as would convince even the most die-hard skeptic?

The Holy Spirit is with me always; testifying His presence through that peace which is priceless, and cannot be moved due to any event or lack thereof in happenings in the outer world, such as gain or loss, love or enmity.

[beefche]

Not Jesus Himself, no. But, are not the miracles worked through his followers enough, when they are done in such a manner as would convince even the most die-hard skeptic?

The Holy Spirit is with me always; testifying His presence through that peace which is priceless, and cannot be moved due to any event or lack thereof in happenings in the outer world, such as gain or loss, love or enmity.

But, followers of Jesus (at least they claimed to be followers) have committed horrendous crimes--sometimes in His name. And there are many good people who do wonderful works who don't believe in God at all.

I guess I'm just confused (and maybe no one can help me with that! ) on how someone can know Jesus is Savior and NOT rely at least somewhat on feelings. Feelings of peace, happiness, joy, understanding, etc. help me to know that Jesus is real and alive and my Savior. When I pray to know something, I get those feelings in mega doses--it's a peace that surpasses understanding and I have a hard time describing it. It is different that the feelings I get when I eat a chocolate. I get peace, happiness, joy, understanding, from a little piece of Dove Dark Chocolate. But, those same feelings are felt to an even greater degree--it floods all of me: my mind, heart, body--when I pray about God's laws and doctrines.

I'm not picking on you, PastorBob. I just don't really understand what you're saying. I read those scriptures that you've quoted and understand them to mean something differently. Look at the scriptures surrounding the Jeremiah 17 one you quoted:

5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; aCursed be the man that btrusteth in man, and maketh cflesh his arm, and whose heart ddeparteth from the Lord.

6 For he shall be like the aheath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a bsalt land and not inhabited.

7 Blessed is the man that atrusteth in the Lord, and whose bhope the Lord is.

8 For he shall be as a atree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not bsee when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of cdrought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord asearch the bheart, I try the creins, even to give every man according to his dways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

I read that as saying that your heart is deceitful when you allow it to depart from God. The scriptures have told us to serve God with our heart, mind, and strength. If our heart is deceitful, why would God want us to serve Him with it? Because we've turned our heart over to Him. Only when we surrender our heart to Him can we serve Him with it. And how does He speak peace to us? Through our hearts and minds. Peace is a feeling from God. I feel peace in my heart when praying to Him. I feel ungrateful to Him if I say that those feelings are deceitful.

[PastorBob]

Well, as a Gnostic, faith as in believing things not seen, is evil, regardless of what it is. I was taught to search out and find proof. I did both. I had to work with, in the beginning, a foundation of utmost skepticism.

I was told that, if I did not find proof, my search was wrong. Eventually I was too tired with seeking to continue to do so, at that moment, when I stopped, I found.

[beefche]

Well, as a Gnostic, faith as in believing things not seen, is evil, regardless of what it is. I was taught to search out and find proof. I did both. I had to work with, in the beginning, a foundation of utmost skepticism.

I was told that, if I did not find proof, my search was wrong. Eventually I was too tired with seeking to continue to do so, at that moment, when I stopped, I found.

Yes, it's ironic sometimes how God will answer us. I am glad He found you and you were willing to be found.

[PastorBob]

Sometimes, when we are too busy searching, blinded by personal desires, wants, and goals, we lose sight of everything else, and the Truth we once knew, cannot present itself; there is no time for finding in the search. In order to know what one had, one had to lose it.

Luke 15:11-32

11. And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12. And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18. I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19. And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23. And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25. Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29. And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30. But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31. And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

[Moksha]

Yes, it's ironic sometimes how God will answer us. I am glad He found you and you were willing to be found.

The Divine works in mysterious ways. Answers and blessings happen but without a preset timetable.

:)

[X_Girl]

Except maybe Sodom and Gomorrah.

That was funny.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Great post Pam!

A common attack among LDS haters COUGH carm COUGH - is to scoff at our feelings of revelation.

Good stuff.

[Islander]

Easy, because every town mentioned in the Bible you can still visit today.

Not entirely true. SOME towns you can still visit. MANY more we have no clue where they are and some we are not sure.

[HiJolly]

I am interested. Do you have a source on that?

Isn't that Rene Descartes?

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Well, as a Gnostic, faith as in believing things not seen, is evil, regardless of what it is. I was taught to search out and find proof. I did both. I had to work with, in the beginning, a foundation of utmost skepticism.

I was told that, if I did not find proof, my search was wrong. Eventually I was too tired with seeking to continue to do so, at that moment, when I stopped, I found.

A conclusion is the place we find ourselves when we tire of thinking.

HiJolly

[Islander]

Not Jesus Himself, no. But, are not the miracles worked through his followers enough, when they are done in such a manner as would convince even the most die-hard skeptic?

The Holy Spirit is with me always; testifying His presence through that peace which is priceless, and cannot be moved due to any event or lack thereof in happenings in the outer world, such as gain or loss, love or enmity.

Negative!!!

MANY witnessed the miracles that Jesus worked in Judea and still did not believe. Some attributed the miracles to the devil!!

Evidence means little when the Holy Spirit is shun and rejected.

[PastorBob]

Negative!!!

MANY witnessed the miracles that Jesus worked in Judea and still did not believe. Some attributed the miracles to the devil!!

Evidence means little when the Holy Spirit is shun and rejected.

Well, some people only see what they want to see, enslaved to their "own" ideas (rather someone crafty's) and the first person they attack is anyone who challenges those ideas, directly or indirectly.

Jesus' very presence was a torment to the evil persons who were rendering the laws of God void through adherence to the traditions of the elders.

[JohnnyRudick]

ok, so what happens if you don't trust your feelings?

You miss out.

Sometimes you get hurt:eek:

Now, you must see this in context.

God did give us brains also;)

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 24, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
After tho

[JohnnyRudick]

There are two bible verses which clearly and most accurately describe the difference between feelings and proof:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Hebrews 11: 6 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I think it takes a lot of prayer to grow to the point where we can skillfully tell the difference between the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and the "feelings" of our own sentiments that Jeremiah through the spirit of God writes about.

Bro. Rudick

[PastorBob]

I think it takes a lot of prayer to grow to the point where we can skillfully tell the difference between the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and the "feelings" of our own sentiments that Jeremiah through the spirit of God writes about.

Bro. Rudick

Agreed.

[Islander]

We must also keep in mind that in ancient Hebrew "the heart" referred to human/carnal wishes and desires, one's own thoughts and ideas and not necessarily as we interpret it today.

My point was that the Pharisees and Sadducee thought they already knew and understood religion. They believed to be saved the law as they have been taught for 3000 years. They closed themselves to the possibility and the reality of the new revelation of God and rejected Christ. They had plenty of evidence but in their eyes it was not so, it was not sufficient, it was just magic and/or the work of the devil as some claimed. Even after the resurrection they would not believe still.

In summary, the greatest barrier to new knowledge and insight is old knowledge and the presumption that we already know. We shun the Spirit in favor of the desires of our heart, i.e to be right, to validate the belief that we already know.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Islander

[Islander]

We must also keep in mind that in ancient Hebrew "the heart" referred to human/carnal wishes and desires, one's own thoughts and ideas and not necessarily as we interpret it today.

My point was that the Pharisees and Sadducee thought they already knew and understood religion. They believed to be saved the law as they have been taught for 3000 years. They closed themselves to the possibility and the reality of the new revelation of God and rejected Christ. They had plenty of evidence but in their eyes itr was not so, it was not sufficient, it was just magic and/or the work of the devil as some claimed. Even after the resurrection they would not believe still.

In summary, the greatest barrier to new knowledge and insight is old knowledge and the presumption that we already know. We shun the Spirit in favor of the desires of our heart, i.e to be right, to validate the belief that we already know.

[beefche]

I think it takes a lot of prayer to grow to the point where we can skillfully tell the difference between the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and the "feelings" of our own sentiments that Jeremiah through the spirit of God writes about.

Bro. Rudick

I completely agree, Bro. It's something that we all struggle with...but what I have found is that as I act on my feelings, that God reminds me that "yep, THIS was Me telling you to do this." He testifies to us when we are doing His will. If I act on a feeling and don't get that response, then I know it was just my own feelings and not something from God. As we continue to practice that, we get more adept at recognizing God's voice vs. our own feelings. And, as long as my feelings are prompting me to do something good, whether it's from God or not, I know that it brings me closer to Him. (Moroni 7).