G-d Vs. Satan

[Traveler]

It appears to me that Ex Mormon Jason worships a very different G-d than do I. To clarify the extent of this difference I have created this thread as to not take away from the thread (Gayness) where this difference arose. For clarification I have made a list to compare my understanding of G-d verses my understanding of Satan as the G-d of Hell with comments of comparison for Mr. Ex

1. The G-d I worship does not think of man as slaves – He thinks of man as his children that he loves.

Satan views man as his slaves rather than his children and only cares that he “sift us a wheat” according to his pleasure.

It appears to me that Jason’s G-d owns us as slaves and is the Satan I fear.

2. The G-d I worship does not intend to punish man – He would suffer great anguish and pain even death if it were possible rather than punish man. But since he cannot suffer such anguish and cannot die he allowed his “Beloved Son”. That is the “Son of G-d” to suffer great anguish and pain even death in an effort to not punish man.

Satan intends to punish man at every opportunity. He delight in causing suffering through his punishments.

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

3. The G-d I worship does not make rules for man except that such rules are guides to benefit man. Every thing my G-d does is merciful and kind and therefore his rules are only a “light burden” that cannot benefit him in any way or in anyway add to his greatness. His rules are for my sake only.

Satan makes rules that he may control us. We receive no benefit from the rules only punishment for not following them

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

4. The G-d I worship does not gain anything from my worship of him – he does not need my worship for it does nothing to his greatness. The only benefit to be gained by my worship is mine. He realizes this importance so commands that I worship him that I can receive great joy.

Satan benefits greatly from our worship of him and therefore this is the only reason he wants us to worship him. He does not care for those that worship him but intends to punish those that do not worship him.

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

5. The G-d I worship wants me to be free. The reason he offers himself as my master is because he intends that through my acceptance of him as my master I can learn and become just like him – free – for indeed at this time he alone is truly free and has no master. He created man in his image and likeness and has every intention that man become free like he is.

Satan does not want me to be free. He does not want anyone to be free. He wants to become the permeate master of all and maintain us forever as his slaves.

It appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the very Satan I fear.

I think I worship a different G-d than Jason – But I could be wrong, I hope so. If I have misrepresented this difference please correct me Jason and on at least the points I have made that we do after worship the same G-d and fear the same Satan.

The Traveler

[Amillia]

Very interesting input.

I think some are raised with the concept of a fearful God. It means they understand the God of the OT as He is recorded. But fail to understand the God of the NT as He is recorded.

Actually, both parts of the scriptures teach of the fearful part of God and the loving, kind, merciful God. But some tend towards one element while some tend towards the other.

How you perceive God is dependant upon where you are in the 'relationship' with Him. Those who were raised with less love and more letter of the law kind of homes tend towards the fearsome God, while those raised in calm and peaceful, kind, understanding homes, tend towards the Father image of God.

IOW what I am trying to say is that we find the God we are looking for.

[Blessed]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 12:19 PM

IOW what I am trying to say is that we find the God we are looking for.

I think that is right on there, A.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 11:19 AM

Very interesting input.

I think some are raised with the concept of a fearful God. It means they understand the God of the OT as He is recorded. But fail to understand the God of the NT as He is recorded.

Actually, both parts of the scriptures teach of the fearful part of God and the loving, kind, merciful God. But some tend towards one element while some tend towards the other.

How you perceive God is dependant upon where you are in the 'relationship' with Him. Those who were raised with less love and more letter of the law kind of homes tend towards the fearsome God, while those raised in calm and peaceful, kind, understanding homes, tend towards the Father image of God.

IOW what I am trying to say is that we find the God we are looking for.

I was raised in a very disciplined patricidal home. My father was a very wealthy man but hated rich kids all his life so we lived in a lower middle-income home with one beater for a family car. I did not know we were rich until I was in college (paying my own way). I never received an allowance and at the age of 8 I was expected to work to pay for my own clothing, vacations (with family) and contribute to my board and room. My father owned a lot of real estate where we were put to work cleaning, landscaping or fixing. We had to have our chores done at home before we could go to work.

We were expected to get “A’s” in school – father also taught school for a while. We could stay out as late as we wanted but had to be up at 4 for work even during school. We were expected to set examples in our standards and dress. We were never allowed to talk back – especially to elders. My father was rather physical when we were disobedient but I never thought of physical punishment as abusive. If you ever said you would do something or be somewhere – you better be true to your word. I never remember my parents coming to any activity or school play that I was a part of but I did not think they should be there either. I was raised with the attitude that I could do most anything I wanted to pay for or take responsibility. I would report my plan and my father’s response was almost always – Sounds good. I can never remember my father saying anything other than I should have done better when a job was done. I do remember not being paid for work that was not up to standard. One time my team was paid but I was not because I was in charge and it was not good enough. My father never suggested that we should be less than he would give as an example. I knew if I did not paint an apartment good enough he would re do it himself.

I love my father and believe everyone should come from such a home – and you are right – I think G-d is a lot like that. But my father changed a lot when my brother was killed by accident – my father was the only one that could have saved him but was unable.

The Traveler

[Jason]

It appears to me that Ex Mormon Jason worships a very different G-d than do

That’s true. Your “Gods” are all created beings, separate and polytheistic. My God is complete and whole. Your “Gods” are incomplete until they’ve taken on human form, leaving the Holy Ghost as a secondary god until he fulfills a mortal existence. I will not worship a created being.

The G-d I worship does not think of man as slaves – He thinks of man as his children that he loves.

First, let me point out that the word “servant” can be alternatively translated as “slave” when found in the KJV. Then I’d like you to read the following verses so that you may understand what Im actually talking about, instead of assuming you understand what I teach:

“The disciple is not above his teacher, nor the slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.” (St. Matthew 10:24-25, NASB)

“Paul, a servant (slave) of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the Gospel of God...” (Romans 1:1)

“Paul and Timotheus, the servants (slaves) of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons” (Philippipans 1:1)

“Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow-labourer (slave)” (Philemon 1:1)

“James, a servant (slave) of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” (James 1:1)

“Simon Peter, a servant (slave) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:1)

“Jude, the servant (slave) of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father; and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called;” (Jude 1:1)

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (St. John 6:37)

We are given to Christ by the Father, therefore we are Christ’s POSSESSION. If someone owns you, that makes you a slave.

Satan views man as his slaves rather than his children and only cares that he “sift us a wheat” according to his pleasure.

I don’t know what type of belief-set you have, but I do not believe that Satan is the father of anything but lies. And the last time I checked, neither do Mormons. Perhaps you worded this statement poorly, but as worded, it implies that Satan has children, which as a created Angelic being, he/it does not.

It appears to me that Jason’s G-d owns us as slaves and is the Satan I fear.

Ignoring this obvious attempt to distort my views, and bait me into a fight, I will respond that you’re views of “non-slavery” completely ignore the humble stance of the Apostles, in referring to themselves as slaves of Christ. This is the view I take, and you clearly don’t understand.

The G-d I worship does not intend to punish man – He would suffer great anguish and pain even death if it were possible rather than punish man. But since he cannot suffer such anguish and cannot die he allowed his “Beloved Son”. That is the “Son of G-d” to suffer great anguish and pain even death in an effort to not punish man.

Again, your distortion of Scripture is mind-numbing.

“He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (St. John 3:18)

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (St. John 3:5)

Satan intends to punish man at every opportunity. He delight in causing suffering through his punishments.

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

God will punish man when he disobeys. He may use Satan as his tool, but as Job teaches, Satan can do nothing of himself, but only what the Father allows.

3. The G-d I worship does not make rules for man except that such rules are guides to benefit man. Every thing my G-d does is merciful and kind and therefore his rules are only a “light burden” that cannot benefit him in any way or in anyway add to his greatness. His rules are for my sake only.

Exactly. And I would add that God doesn’t need us at all. In His mercy he created us, and in His Love, He will offer us Salvation.

Satan makes rules that he may control us. We receive no benefit from the rules only punishment for not following them

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

Satan makes no rules. He makes no laws. He is powerless without God’s permission. Please re-read Job and (to quote Bruce R. McConkie) "get in line with Scripture!"

4. The G-d I worship does not gain anything from my worship of him – he does not need my worship for it does nothing to his greatness. The only benefit to be gained by my worship is mine. He realizes this importance so commands that I worship him that I can receive great joy.

I agree.

Satan benefits greatly from our worship of him and therefore this is the only reason he wants us to worship him. He does not care for those that worship him but intends to punish those that do not worship him.

Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

I strongly disagree, and I challenge you to prove this from the Bible (or even your Mormon writings). Show me where Satan gains benefit of anything? Show me how Satan can punish anyone without God’s permission?

5. The G-d I worship wants me to be free. The reason he offers himself as my master is because he intends that through my acceptance of him as my master I can learn and become just like him – free – for indeed at this time he alone is truly free and has no master. He created man in his image and likeness and has every intention that man become free like he is.

Man cannot live without God. We are not free, and will not be free in this life or the next. We are subject to God forever.

Satan does not want me to be free. He does not want anyone to be free. He wants to become the permeate master of all and maintain us forever as his slaves.

It appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the very Satan I fear.

I still find it interesting that I ever believed this line. Satan has no counter-plan. He/it does as instructed, period.

I think I worship a different G-d than Jason – But I could be wrong, I hope so. If I have misrepresented this difference please correct me Jason and on at least the points I have made that we do after worship the same G-d and fear the same Satan.

The Traveler

I believe we both try to worship the same God, but that your understanding is way off course. As for Satan, I do not fear it. Satan is a created being, as we all are, and has no power but what God allows. I place my trust in God and therefore have no fear of evil.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Traveler+Feb 4 2005, 01:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Feb 4 2005, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 11:19 AM

Very interesting input.

I think some are raised with the concept of a fearful God. It means they understand the God of the OT as He is recorded. But fail to understand the God of the NT as He is recorded.

Actually, both parts of the scriptures teach of the fearful part of God and the loving, kind, merciful God. But some tend towards one element while some tend towards the other.

How you perceive God is dependant upon where you are in the 'relationship' with Him. Those who were raised with less love and more letter of the law kind of homes tend towards the fearsome God, while those raised in calm and peaceful, kind, understanding homes, tend towards the Father image of God.

IOW what I am trying to say is that we find the God we are looking for.

I was raised in a very disciplined patricidal home. My father was a very wealthy man but hated rich kids all his life so we lived in a lower middle-income home with one beater for a family car. I did not know we were rich until I was in college (paying my own way). I never received an allowance and at the age of 8 I was expected to work to pay for my own clothing, vacations (with family) and contribute to my board and room. My father owned a lot of real estate where we were put to work cleaning, landscaping or fixing. We had to have our chores done at home before we could go to work.

We were expected to get “A’s” in school – father also taught school for a while. We could stay out as late as we wanted but had to be up at 4 for work even during school. We were expected to set examples in our standards and dress. We were never allowed to talk back – especially to elders. My father was rather physical when we were disobedient but I never thought of physical punishment as abusive. If you ever said you would do something or be somewhere – you better be true to your word. I never remember my parents coming to any activity or school play that I was a part of but I did not think they should be there either. I was raised with the attitude that I could do most anything I wanted to pay for or take responsibility. I would report my plan and my father’s response was almost always – Sounds good. I can never remember my father saying anything other than I should have done better when a job was done. I do remember not being paid for work that was not up to standard. One time my team was paid but I was not because I was in charge and it was not good enough. My father never suggested that we should be less than he would give as an example. I knew if I did not paint an apartment good enough he would re do it himself.

I love my father and believe everyone should come from such a home – and you are right – I think G-d is a lot like that. But my father changed a lot when my brother was killed by accident – my father was the only one that could have saved him but was unable.

The Traveler

That isn't exactly the home I was brought up, but pretty close. Everything was the same except my dad was very good at working with us when given an asignment and very praising when doing a good job. I always did very good job, but my sister didn't and nothing was ever said.

However, the siblings did enough complaining about a sloppy job so dad didn't need to.

My dad was always the one who came into us at night when we were sick. He would give us a blessings and we would go back to bed better. He was a great dad, but he was strict in his expectations of us and we all worked on paper routes and custodial jobs with him without pay of any kind.

I even took care of foster kids without any compensation. The allowance we were given just happened to cover our lunch money needed at school and I was expected to sew all of my own clothes. I didn't receive any store bought clothes until I was 14.

[neo_xero8]

"Exactly. And I would add that God doesn’t need us at all. In His mercy he created us, and in His Love, He will offer us Salvation."

I would like to debate, I do not back this with doctorine or scripture, I just wish to offer a new point of view, and I won't tear down your opinion. I belive taht God did NOT create us in mercy, but in Love, and for his own Joy, i think as my parents derive joy from me and that's why they had me, the same that God created us, to bring him more Joy, he created us out of his love.

"QUOTE

Satan benefits greatly from our worship of him and therefore this is the only reason he wants us to worship him. He does not care for those that worship him but intends to punish those that do not worship him. Again it appears to me that Jason’s G-d is the Satan I fear.

I strongly disagree, and I challenge you to prove this from the Bible (or even your Mormon writings). Show me where Satan gains benefit of anything? Show me how Satan can punish anyone without God’s permission? "

First of all Satan gains great benefit of drawing us away, he benefits from his own enjoyment at having drawn away another soul, this is just my personal belief, but it's a fact that he wants us all to be miserable like unto him, so if we are drawn away and made miserable, then he has benefited. He has succeded in his purpose. Seondly, I don't believe that God really punishes or Satan. I believe that when we disobey, God decides to test our faitfulness through a test, Satan administers this test, but God regulates the difficulty of it, based on what he knows we can, or can't handle. Once again, these are my personal testimonies and not doctrine.

Satan has no counter-plan. He/it does as instructed, period.

Of course he doesn't have a counter-plan, if he did there would be no way for him to enact it, as he is infintesimal in power compared to Heavenly Father. I also believe that Satan is not instructed to do anything really. He can be cast out through the power of the Holy Ghost obviously, however, as far as his own purposes are concerned, I believe he is his own boss in that department.

These are my own opinions, I'm not saying anyone here is wrong, this is just what I think, I'd rather this remain a debate, and no become an arguement, there is no benefit from arguement.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Feb 4 2005, 12:29 PM

I was raised in a very disciplined patricidal home.

This is very disturbing.

[Jason]

I would like to debate, I do not back this with doctorine or scripture, I just wish to offer a new point of view, and I won't tear down your opinion.

What's the point? No offense, but Im not interested in opinions. Perhaps someone else would be willing to debate opinions.

I belive taht God did NOT create us in mercy, but in Love, and for his own Joy, i think as my parents derive joy from me and that's why they had me, the same that God created us, to bring him more Joy, he created us out of his love.

Mercy as I intended it used would be synonymous with Charity, and Charity is a synonym of Love.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 10 2005, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 10 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Feb 4 2005, 12:29 PM

I was raised in a very disciplined patricidal home.

This is very disturbing.

Boy! I'm glad I'm not the only one who is concerned about that statement.

[neo_xero8]

In all honesty Jason, if you're not interested in opinions or debating, and you are an active member of a forum, then you would be a self-promclaimed hypocrite. This is the nature of forums, posting opinions and discussing them, no matter how hard you try to distort that fact, it always remains. I'm not trying to offend either.

I personally don't find Mercy synonymous with Charity, not that I don't succumb to any dictionary on the matter, but to me Mercy is extended to a person only to satisfy the demands of Justice. In this case there were no demands to satisfy. I do find Charity to be a good word however, the pure love of Christ. That would bring those opinion of ours into harmony with each other.

[Jason]

In all honesty Jason, if you're not interested in opinions or debating, and you are an active member of a forum, then you would be a self-promclaimed hypocrite. This is the nature of forums, posting opinions and discussing them, no matter how hard you try to distort that fact, it always remains. I'm not trying to offend either.

Call me a hypocrite then. I don't care about your opinion. If you wish to postulate your view regarding a scriptural passage, then that's fine. But you personal speculations with no Biblical support don't amount to a hill of beans as far as Im concerned.

[Tr2]

ghbhbv,mn kg ........... oops, sorry. I fell asleep half way through the original post because it was so boring. Maybe if the original poster had stated one single example rather than just making blanket accusations I wouldn't have been so bored. I wonder what point Tr-veler was trying to make. "My God is better than your God and my dad can beat up your dad".

[Snow]

Oh, oh,

Is this one of those thread were we all get to define another's beliefs in a way that defies their own self-understanding?

Can I play and tell you all what you really believe?

[pushka]

LOL...Go on then Snow...I'm finding this thread just a tad boring too...sorry guys!!! (insert yawn smilie... )