testimony

[threepercent]

so, what happens when you put Moroni 10"4 to the test and dont get an answer.

has this been addressed by GA or in Conference?

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

and lets skip the obvious answer that puts the fault on the person asking, lets say there is real intent, faith, and sincere heart.

[darrel]

I would say the problem is not with the test or the test administrator. We need to remember The Lord promised to give us answers. Also we need to understand faith and doubt cannot coexist. One will drive out the other.

[Madriglace]

The promise is given .. if the conditions are followed an answer will come ... you need to be sure you are listening. The answer will not necessarily (more than likely not) be a huge thing it may be still and small and quiet. Keep praying and keep listening. Consider what you are praying for and maybe change the content .... praying for the same thing a differnt way may produce results. The Lord does things in His own way in His own time.

[Justice]

I think many people do not understand how to get answers, or even how the Lord gives answers. People don't even know how to ask to get answers from the Lord.

We must study it out in our mind and arrive at what we think the best answer is. Then, we ask if our conclusion is right. Too many people pray with multiple choice questions. They ask, "Is it right or wrong?"

If a person wants to know what college to attend, they might ask, "Lord, should I go to college A or B?"

The Spirit cannot answer questions with more than 1 option. The Spirit manifests truth, He does not make decisions for us. The Spirit does not work with negative feelings. He will not tell us something is not true. He will simply not answer us, or in rare cases cause us to forget the thing we are asking.

So, to know if the Book of Mormon is true, one must read and study until they have come to the conclusion that it just might be true. Believing and desiring it to be true, then you ask for that confirmation. When the Spirit answers it causes all doubt and concern over a matter to flee. That is something we cannot do ourselves. However, if the Spirit does not answer, we are still confused and still worry over the matter.

I know you said not to blame the person asking, but a rose is a rose. The person asking must be believing and not skeptical, or it will not work.

Moroni 10:

4 And when ye shall receive these things...

If we don't first receive them, or accept them, then we will never know if they are true.

[mikbone]

It is true.

Amen.

[Faded]

and lets skip the obvious answer that puts the fault on the person asking, lets say there is real intent, faith, and sincere heart.

We can certainly skip that part, but it's critically important. You can't get an answer on the matter unless you have both a sincere heart and real intent.

What is your personal understanding of "real intent", "sincere heart" and "Faith in Christ?" The answer to your question is probably tied to one of those.

[Dravin]

This would apply to any promise given in the scriptures of do X and the Lord will do Y. If you are doing X and Y isn't happening the promise is either invalid or the Lord is not capable of doing Y or is unwilling to do so. The latter of course is incomprehensible to the Christian concept of God.

[hordak]

so, what happens when you put Moroni 10"4 to the test and dont get an answer.

has this been addressed by GA or in Conference?

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

and lets skip the obvious answer that puts the fault on the person asking, lets say there is real intent, faith, and sincere heart.

At the risk of being run off as an apostate i would say it means the church isn't right for that individual.

The "problem" with Moroni's challenge is that it what psychologist call a non falsifiable prediction. (at least that's how most look at it)

Hypothesis: The spirit will reveal the truth of the church

non falsifiable prediction:I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

possible outcomes: Spirit tells you the church is true: supports hypothesis

no answer from the spirit: many members will think you didn't do right :Supports hypothesis

Now that's not to say it's not true. After all I know the love my family has for each other is true and that can't be sported by the scientific method either. But to jump to the conclusion the person is not doing it right makes it a non falsifiable prediction. Which can be used to "prove" anything from alien abduction to Zeus.

[goofball]

For some the answer does not come right away. I have known too many who gave up before the trial of their faith. It can take some time before you receive the answer. Keep trying and dont give up, don't ever give up.

For me I remember trying this when I was a teenager, hoping for something to happen. I believed that I needed to know and receive this confirmation. Then the words of the Lord to Oliver Cowdry in Doctrine and Covenants 6:22-23 22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might aknow concerning the truth of these things. 23 Did I not speak apeace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater bwitness can you have than from God?

I realized at that time that I was asking for confirmation of what I already knew. I knew the Book of Mormon was true and had known for years. Why was I doubting what the Spirit had already confirmed to me? Many a times I have gone back to this scripture and don't doubt what I already know just because I feel I need ANOTHER confirmation.

Also check out this talk

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Learning to Recognize Answers to Prayer

[bytor2112]

You might want to apply the preceding verse as well:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

[threepercent]

ps, not about me, I have my testimony.

I say lets avoid the obvious because here is a real truth: people struggle with this. there are people who want an answer who have not received one. I for one am not going to tell someone who is moved to tears because they have not received an answer in years, and they have done everything they know how, that its their fault because they somehow did not have enough faith or real intent.

there are people who have been baptized, married in the temple, pay tithing, fulfill callings and have never had this promise fulfilled for them. when they hit a severe trial of faith, this will, has, does come into play.

we are all approaching severe trials of our faith.

how do you council someone like this?

someone who says "I dont KNOW the church is true"

[Dravin]

that its their fault because they somehow did not have enough faith or real intent.

Or they aren't recognizing the answer, or their trial of faith is not over.

My council would be to keep trying. Also knowing and knowing that you know are two different things. (See Elder Callister's talk Knowing That We Know).

[beefche]

ps, not about me, I have my testimony.

I say lets avoid the obvious because here is a real truth: people struggle with this. there are people who want an answer who have not received one. I for one am not going to tell someone who is moved to tears because they have not received an answer in years, and they have done everything they know how, that its their fault because they somehow did not have enough faith or real intent.

there are people who have been baptized, married in the temple, pay tithing, fulfill callings and have never had this promise fulfilled for them. when they hit a severe trial of faith, this will, has, does come into play.

we are all approaching severe trials of our faith.

how do you council someone like this?

someone who says "I dont KNOW the church is true"

Sounds like this conference address was aimed specifically at this member who has been baptized, married in the temple, pay tithing, fulfill callings, etc.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Testimony as a Process

[HiJolly]

I say lets avoid the obvious because here is a real truth: people struggle with this. there are people who want an answer who have not received one. I for one am not going to tell someone who is moved to tears because they have not received an answer in years, and they have done everything they know how, that its their fault because they somehow did not have enough faith or real intent.

there are people who have been baptized, married in the temple, pay tithing, fulfill callings and have never had this promise fulfilled for them.

That's me. Although, I have had many tiny and small witnesses, when asking directly RE: Moroni 10:4 I have not had that specific witness given. But it's Ok, and I *know* it's Ok because God Himself directly and personally TOLD me that I have received enough (and He pointed to the baptism of Fire I rec'd many years ago, as case in point). So I'm good.

when they hit a severe trial of faith, this will, has, does come into play.

Yes.

how do you council someone like this?

I tell them we're all different and that we must have faith and endure to the end. In God's time, we'll know what we need to know.

someone who says "I dont KNOW the church is true"

There is more than one way to know.

HiJolly

[Traveler]

so, what happens when you put Moroni 10"4 to the test and dont get an answer.

has this been addressed by GA or in Conference?

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

and lets skip the obvious answer that puts the fault on the person asking, lets say there is real intent, faith, and sincere heart.

There are two possibilities:

1. G-d does not answer - for whatever reason G-d does not answer prayers. He could be too busy, he really does not care or it is even possible that he does not exist.

2. The person cannot percieve a manifestation from G-d. In the parable of the sewer Jesus indicates that some soil has not been prepared for the seed and therefore the seed has no place in harden, rocky or weed infested soil.

The Traveler

[beefche]

Here's a quote from my online Book of Mormon reading website. When I read this, I thought of this thread:

"You exercise faith by...making your mind accept or believe as truth that which you cannot, by reason alone, prove for certainty."

--President Boyd K. Packer, Ensign, November 1994, page 60.

[Jasmin]

I was just about to start this thread. What do you all think about this: 10 Ways to Prepare for Personal Revelation

[Guest missingsomething]

I think that if you are reading and praying to prove mormonism wrong- you wont get your answer..

HOWEVER - I dont think you are necessarily feeling this way-

But sometimes we pray and think the answer should be instant.... if we arent prepared spiritually- emotionally - then we maybe getting the answer and not recognizing it... and we maybe getting an answer of "not now -"

I was told once that before you can see the light - you must be tested in the dark. Faith is not knowing something. You must first exihibit the faith that this could be true - that this is not a hoax .

Hope this helps.

[Traveler]

I think that if you are reading and praying to prove mormonism wrong- you wont get your answer..

HOWEVER - I dont think you are necessarily feeling this way-

But sometimes we pray and think the answer should be instant.... if we arent prepared spiritually- emotionally - then we maybe getting the answer and not recognizing it... and we maybe getting an answer of "not now -"

I was told once that before you can see the light - you must be tested in the dark. Faith is not knowing something. You must first exihibit the faith that this could be true - that this is not a hoax .

Hope this helps.

I find your post interesting and I have the feeling that they are only a tip of an iceburg representation of your thinking. May I add something to your thought?

I have always believed that answers to prayers are already answered before we even think of prayer. The real purpose of prayer is not to change anything G-d is doing but to change something within ourselves to become aware and part of what G-d is already doing. The only thing taking time is a change within us.

The Traveler