Kidnapping And Murder

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 10:27 AM

I'm not blaming God. Why don't you answer the question instead of attacking me? How could a just, loving, merciful God allow such a thing to happen?

AS--I wasn't attacking you and you know it. You are really on one today. You asked a question, many people have tried to answer it according to their beliefs. What else do you want? Do you want everyone on this board to become a bitter atheist like yourself? It's not going to happen. If you want to disbelieve in God--go for it. Other people may choose to continue to believe in a God who allows bad things happen to good people. Even Jesus said that God sends rain upon the just and the unjust. I'm sure you don't believe in Jesus either, but you are on a board where most people believe in these things. What exactly do you want with this thread?

[Guest Starsky]

I think you're a sick woman. And bitter. Which is strange. Because your religion is supposed to fundamentally change a person.

So your thoughts are that our religion fundamentally changes a person? Then you believe that? and you are disappointed that you don't understand me?from this perspective?

You are very confusing AS. I don't think you really know what you believe or don't.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Ant -- Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I just figure if God had a better way to do bring about immortality and eternal life, he'd use it. The concept of divine omnipotence strikes me as more a philosophical abstraction than something real. God may have all power, but that doesn't mean that he has the power to do anything -- recall the paradox about an omnipotent God not being able to create a rock so big he can't lift it. God has all power that is capable, by definition, of existing. Just as there's an inherent paradox between infinite creative power and infinite lifting capacity, maybe there's some kind of inherent, definitional paradox between creating Gods and sparing the Gods-in-training the pain of living in a random universe. Maybe one necessary definition of a deity is one who has overcome the world.

And Ant -- I don't think you're guilty of spiritual rapine. Maybe a mild spiritual Schwarzeneggar-style grope here and there ...

[Snow]

I just glanced at the thread so forgive me for not addressing it completely, I'll get to more of it later, but, in a traditional Christian model of an omnipotent diety, of course you have to blame God.

If the all-powerful, all=knowing creator of everything that is created is responsible for what He created, then who is?

On the other hand, this is probably one of the best arguments for why the traditional Christian model doesn't make sense. (Don't worry Trident, you aren't expected to get it)

More later.

[Tr2]

If the all-powerful, all=knowing creator of everything that is created is responsible for what He created, then who is?

If I punch you in the face who do you blame, me or the person who taught my how to punch? Or would you blame God for not stoping the punch?

I have noticed how nobody seems to care about the criminal, nor the victim, in this thread.

[Guest Starsky]

And Ant -- I don't think you're guilty of spiritual rapine. Maybe a mild spiritual Schwarzeneggar-style grope here and there ...

LOL

[USNationalist]

....on a lighter note (dont know if it was said)

the killers name was Joeseph Smith

Antishock let me ask you somthing--

how could you let something like this happen? What do you do to protect children? Do you help out in information programs? Self defence classes for children? How can you accuse God of failing to live up to a moral standard of your creation if your not living up to it?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 6 2004, 07:59 PM

If the all-powerful, all=knowing creator of everything that is created is responsible for what He created, then who is?

If I punch you in the face who do you blame, me or the person who taught my how to punch? Or would you blame God for not stoping the punch?

You think that teaching someone to punch is analogous to an all-powerful creator who created the murderer and created his environment and created his parents and created his spirit which entered his body when the creator decided which family he was to be born into and created and put into motion all the dynamics that led to the horrible deed, and then stood idly by and did nothing to perhap the act?

Antishock,

You explain it to him.

[Winnie G]

I become consumed with anger and sadness when there is a kidnapping and sexual assault of our young people hits the news.

I become worried daily for the well being of my own son who lived through his own ordeal.

Oddly enough once the body was discovered my thoughts went to rest and the worry leaves.

Why? Because she will not spend her life battling depression drug addiction suicide attempts and boyfriends / girlfriends who will walk away once they know what happened.

All of the above happed and happens to my son now 26.

There have been times the thought "he would have been better off if he had died" enters my mind.

We as parents are selfish and pray to God that “if they would just come home alive”

We prayed for that as I am sure her parents did.

You never see past the "returned alive" part when you’re in the middle of hell.

It is hard to explain in less you have been there. The hours at mental hospitals or emergency rooms or the shadow of your son at the end of your bed wet with sweat asking if he can sleep with us even at 16.

I have heard my son beg me to stop worshiping a God that allowed this to happen to him.

My hart was wrent from my chest when he screamed ” I was a good boy ! I passed the sacrament every Sunday, I did what I was suppose to do WHY?”!!!!

Its simple really free agency YES but also how can we learn what we have to learn if there is no homeless to feed and shelter, abused children to comfort and shattered soles to give rest to. That is why.

That is why God cannot control our every moment on earth.

Someone has to be the victim.

I use to say God saved my son by letting a nurse from the local prison see this man on the street knowing he was out of his assigned aria and notifying the locale police allowing the search to begin and the rescue of my son. But as the years pass and I watched with no control over my son as he suffered through his owe madness, with the understanding of how death would have brought him peace.

As I have said before this question is on the top of my list to ask my heavenly father about.

By the way my son struggles with his demons but not alone. He has a sweet companion and a wonderful stepson, who now gives him purpose and the understanding to be a better person. No he still does not speck to God.

[Jenda]

Winnie, that was a touching, touching story. Thank you for sharing the one thing this thread lacked, the personal testimony. God bless your son.

[Cal]

I feel for anyone who has endured the tragedies and mishaps that befall most of us.

As far as God is concerned, I have to ask myself what kind of God can I believe in? Do I believe in a God that goes around randomly selecting people to drastic pain and suffering? Is God some kind of cosmic terrorist? Does he play favorites, purposely providing some with smooth sailing (relatively speaking) and others with nothing but misery and pain?

I find it hard to believe in the Mormon God for the simple reason that the Mormon God IS in charge and does have control over pain and suffering. Mormons, and mormon scripture, regularly refer to God's hand in this and that. God will cause this to happen, God will destroy this person or that person. God will bring this punishment or that. This position imbues God with sufficient control to make Him responsible for both the good and evil in the world. And he apparently turns a blind eye, except to a chosen few...those with stories about how God gave them a warning of impending danger,which they then avoided or God cured their sick child. He apparently couldn't give a rat's ____ about the kid next door who just died of cancer.

Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS. He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood". Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly! Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

That kind of God--full of contradiction and irony--doesn't exist, IMHO. I don't mind making that claim because no one has ever presented me with ONE SHRED of evidence that he does.

Have you ever noticed that WITHOUT the mormon God, the world would be exactly the same as it is? What events in history CANNOT be explained by simple cause and effect laws of nature? The existance of the Mormon God doesn't explain anything, but causes even more confusion. Sure there are unusual and pivotal events. But that would be true anyway--nature is full of unusual occurances. Given the vast number of "rolls of the dice", there are bound to be highly unusual events. It doesn't require some "supernatural" hand, just lots of time and lots of events. For example, some mormon apologists assert that JS couldn't possibly have invented the stories in the BoM, so they must have come from God. For this to be meaningful, one must assume that there are no other cases in history where a person has come up with an inventive story line, and NOT claimed it came from god. I think, with a little thought we can think of many!

So, what KIND of God COULD I believe in? Given the nature of what I see in the world, its events--good and evil--If I were to be pushed into answering this question, I would say.....1) One that has no actual control over the random events of nature or life. 2) One that, however, he operates, recognizes that humans have so little ACTUAL control over their circumstances, looking at the big picture, that he can really only justify loving them ALL equally. And if we ever get to meet him in the anthropormophic sense, he will say something like---so, what did you think of that "life" thing? What did you learn? And, I'm glad to have you all back! (He'll also probably say something like "next time, I'll make a few less mosquitos. Oh, that's right, mosquitos were the result of evolution, which was out of my control. Sorry, next time, you'll just have to take your chances, like the last time."

[Snow]

So far no one has addressed the issue. You are all mostly talking right past it. The issue here is theodicy - the problem of evil. It is essentially a “tri”-lemma.

1. God is omni-benevolent (all-kind or all-good)

2. Goad is omnipotent (all-powerful)

3. Unnecessary evil exists

That’s the problem. A omniscient God (who knows about the evil) who was truly interested in the welfare of his creation, could not allow such evil as is in the world to exist. Note that “evil” means suffering caused by both immorality (murder etc) and natural suffering (natural or accidental harm - fire etc)

Here are some solutions to the problem:

1. (the orthodox Christian solution) Man is not innocent. Adam fell - thus all men are sinners and deserve what they get. (author’s note: that’s stupid)

2. Suffering and evil are just an illusion - that in the greater scheme of things, the suffering of this earth is so minor that it is not real suffering.

3. God does not exist.

4. God is not all-powerful and cannot stop all evil.

5. God is not all-knowing and doesn’t know about all the evil.

6. God is not all-kind and doesn’t mind if humans suffer unnecessarily.

7. The suffering that occurs is necessary to accomplish God’s plans, such as perfecting mankind. That’s PD’s approach. Still, think of a murder and brutal rape of and child where no one finds out about it. It is hard to imagine how that benefits anyone as a learning experience since it no one knows about it.

8. God is not the creator of everything and thus is not responsible for all evil.

There are probably other possible solutions but off the top of my head, those are the main ones.

Mormonism solves the issue pretty easily with a combination of 4, 7 and 8.

Cal,

You are so full of it - I say with the utmost of respect. If I believed all the screwed up things you believe about Mormonism, I would be more antagonistic than you are.

More later but here’s a teaser. You said:

“

Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS. He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood". Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly! Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

I bet I can find about a dozen misrepresentations, exaggerations, logical fallacies and outright mistruths in that brief paragraph alone - and I just copied that one at random.

[AFDaw]

It seems it's been said over and over and some people just don't want to accept it. God did not do this. Could God have stopped it? Yes...I personally think he could have. But that would have been against his will. I said it once, I'll say it again, the innocent will suffer so that the wicked will be punished. The wicked are his children also, and they have their free agency also. God does not grant free agency just to the righteous.

Cal - You said...

He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood".

I'm curious why you think this? I don't remember anyone saying we believe God ONLY helps Mormons with the priesthood. (Keep in mind woman and young children don't have the priesthood therefore this is suggesting that we believe our God doesn't help the woman and young children in the church either)

After September 11, 2001 happened, I was watching Larry King Live and he had a few high officials of different churchs on and one of them, not sure which, said that so many people asked the same question then. Why did God allow this to happen? Where was God that morning? He said that God wasn't on those planes, but rather in the men and woman who went and donated their blood, who volunteered their time and energy, who searched for survivors, who gave their money to help families of those who lost loved ones. That's where God was that day.

[Guest Starsky]

Faith is common among most civilized people. Faith is the power which heals, or guides through the Spirit to avoid evil.

Everyone on the planet can access the power to be protected from evil for themselves and their families....but even that doesn't quarantee safety....consider Job....all that went wrong there was the fact that Satan as asked by God to take notice of how loyal and righteous Job was.

At this Satan stated that the only reason Job was righteous was because he was soooo blessed. If he wasn't so blessed, Satan said, he wouldn't be so righteous.

Well of course God proved Satan wrong by allowing him to test Job's righteousness...

That is what it is all about...even the most righeous can experience major evil experiences because of evil entities such as Satan and those he influences successfully.

[HalleysComet]

I'd like to add my two cents in. That little girl should have never suffered and been hurt and died. The person who hurt her well I won't say how I feel about them. People like to throw around the word rape,funny isn't it. Comments like do you want to commit spirtual rape by asking a question,they aren't neccessary. Antishock,as always you come up with some great questions. Yes,God made Satan as He did Jesus and just like Cain and Abel they had their own version of sibling rivalry. One chose to do good and the other committed acts or pain and hatred. God gave Satan and Jesus the gift as well as us.IF bad things were never allowed to happen how would we know when the good ones ever did? Me personally I'd like to see the person who hurt that little girl suffer immensely but I also wonder what would drive a human being to commit such horrific acts on another. Were all prone to doing evil as well as good but it's up to us to decide which side of the fence were on.

Halley

[Guest Starsky]

People like to throw around the word rape,funny isn't it. Comments like do you want to commit spirtual rape by asking a question,they aren't neccessary.

I know this is directed towards me, Halley. But I don't quite know what you are saying. Care to clarify?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 7 2004, 03:42 PM

So far no one has addressed the issue. You are all mostly talking right past it. The issue here is theodicy - the problem of evil. It is essentially a “tri”-lemma.

1. God is omni-benevolent (all-kind or all-good)

2. Goad is omnipotent (all-powerful)

3. Unnecessary evil exists

That’s the problem. A omniscient God (who knows about the evil) who was truly interested in the welfare of his creation, could not allow such evil as is in the world to exist. Note that “evil” means suffering caused by both immorality (murder etc) and natural suffering (natural or accidental harm - fire etc)

Here are some solutions to the problem:

1. (the orthodox Christian solution) Man is not innocent. Adam fell - thus all men are sinners and deserve what they get. (author’s note: that’s stupid)

2. Suffering and evil are just an illusion - that in the greater scheme of things, the suffering of this earth is so minor that it is not real suffering.

3. God does not exist.

4. God is not all-powerful and cannot stop all evil.

5. God is not all-knowing and doesn’t know about all the evil.

6. God is not all-kind and doesn’t mind if humans suffer unnecessarily.

7. The suffering that occurs is necessary to accomplish God’s plans, such as perfecting mankind. That’s PD’s approach. Still, think of a murder and brutal rape of and child where no one finds out about it. It is hard to imagine how that benefits anyone as a learning experience since it no one knows about it.

8. God is not the creator of everything and thus is not responsible for all evil.

There are probably other possible solutions but off the top of my head, those are the main ones.

Mormonism solves the issue pretty easily with a combination of 4, 7 and 8.

Cal,

You are so full of it - I say with the utmost of respect. If I believed all the screwed up things you believe about Mormonism, I would be more antagonistic than you are.

More later but here’s a teaser. You said:

“

Therefore, the mormon God is truely HEARTLESS. He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood". Does it matter that you never had a chance to learn about mormonism---NOPE---God won't step in unless you actually go to church regularly! Is God going to solve your financial problems? Not if you don't pay your tithing! God only helps people who jump through the right hoops.

I bet I can find about a dozen misrepresentations, exaggerations, logical fallacies and outright mistruths in that brief paragraph alone - and I just copied that one at random.

Snow--OK, just for fun, let's hear them! :) What have I said that doesn't have AT LEAST some element of truth, or is not a logical conclusion based on valid premises? Which of my premises are faulty OR which of my conclusions are faulty? Let's be specific.

[Cal]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 05:00 PM

It seems it's been said over and over and some people just don't want to accept it. God did not do this. Could God have stopped it? Yes...I personally think he could have. But that would have been against his will. I said it once, I'll say it again, the innocent will suffer so that the wicked will be punished. The wicked are his children also, and they have their free agency also. God does not grant free agency just to the righteous.

Cal - You said...

He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood".

I'm curious why you think this? I don't remember anyone saying we believe God ONLY helps Mormons with the priesthood. (Keep in mind woman and young children don't have the priesthood therefore this is suggesting that we believe our God doesn't help the woman and young children in the church either)

After September 11, 2001 happened, I was watching Larry King Live and he had a few high officials of different churchs on and one of them, not sure which, said that so many people asked the same question then. Why did God allow this to happen? Where was God that morning? He said that God wasn't on those planes, but rather in the men and woman who went and donated their blood, who volunteered their time and energy, who searched for survivors, who gave their money to help families of those who lost loved ones. That's where God was that day.

AFD--so I guess God cares more about the wicked than the rightous? He will sacrifice the rightous for the benefit of the wicked? Quite some God you have there!

[Cal]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 05:00 PM

It seems it's been said over and over and some people just don't want to accept it. God did not do this. Could God have stopped it? Yes...I personally think he could have. But that would have been against his will. I said it once, I'll say it again, the innocent will suffer so that the wicked will be punished. The wicked are his children also, and they have their free agency also. God does not grant free agency just to the righteous.

Cal - You said...

He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood".

I'm curious why you think this? I don't remember anyone saying we believe God ONLY helps Mormons with the priesthood. (Keep in mind woman and young children don't have the priesthood therefore this is suggesting that we believe our God doesn't help the woman and young children in the church either)

After September 11, 2001 happened, I was watching Larry King Live and he had a few high officials of different churchs on and one of them, not sure which, said that so many people asked the same question then. Why did God allow this to happen? Where was God that morning? He said that God wasn't on those planes, but rather in the men and woman who went and donated their blood, who volunteered their time and energy, who searched for survivors, who gave their money to help families of those who lost loved ones. That's where God was that day.

I'll bet that if you asked the people giving all that blood, they would have rather God been with the occupants of the planes! If God can occupy hearts, why can't he occupy cockpits?

[Cal]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 7 2004, 05:00 PM

It seems it's been said over and over and some people just don't want to accept it. God did not do this. Could God have stopped it? Yes...I personally think he could have. But that would have been against his will. I said it once, I'll say it again, the innocent will suffer so that the wicked will be punished. The wicked are his children also, and they have their free agency also. God does not grant free agency just to the righteous.

Cal - You said...

He can alliviate suffering and refuses to do so on a regular basis. Oh, he does it for whom he "choses", according to mormons. Only if you are rightous enough and have the "priesthood".

I'm curious why you think this? I don't remember anyone saying we believe God ONLY helps Mormons with the priesthood. (Keep in mind woman and young children don't have the priesthood therefore this is suggesting that we believe our God doesn't help the woman and young children in the church either)

After September 11, 2001 happened, I was watching Larry King Live and he had a few high officials of different churchs on and one of them, not sure which, said that so many people asked the same question then. Why did God allow this to happen? Where was God that morning? He said that God wasn't on those planes, but rather in the men and woman who went and donated their blood, who volunteered their time and energy, who searched for survivors, who gave their money to help families of those who lost loved ones. That's where God was that day.

Priesthood--responding to your query---I thought that the priesthood was the power to get God to do stuff for you--like heal the sick and injured. If God can heal without the priesthood, why the priesthood in the first place?

[Cal]

Peace, you said: Everyone on the planet can access the power to be protected from evil for themselves and their families....but even that doesn't quarantee safety....consider ..."

If the power of God you talk about doesn't GUARANTEE anything, then what is it supposed to do? If it can't be counted on, why should anyone rely on it?

[Tr2]

Who is going to be the intelligent person and hold the rapist and murderer responsible for this crime?

You think that teaching someone to punch is analogous to an all-powerful creator who created the murderer and created his environment and created his parents and created his spirit which entered his body when the creator decided which family he was to be born into and created and put into motion all the dynamics that led to the horrible deed, and then stood idly by and did nothing to perhap the act?

Do you have the ability to answer questions? Or is it that you do not know how to answer it because it goes against the point that you are trying to make. If I punched you in the face would you blame me or blame God for not stopping it?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 7 2004, 05:46 PM

Peace, you said: Everyone on the planet can access the power to be protected from evil for themselves and their families....but even that doesn't quarantee safety....consider ..."

If the power of God you talk about doesn't GUARANTEE anything, then what is it supposed to do? If it can't be counted on, why should anyone rely on it?

Well you must always accept that God knows best. You would be putting yourself in complete control, with no recognition of God's will if you received what you wanted everytime reguardless whether or not it was what was best..

Just as a parent can't grant their children everything they want...because sometimes...though it doesn't always appear so to the child, what they want may not be what is right for them.

I believe that before we came, we foresaw our life and was asked what specific things we wanted to gain from this experience...What we would be willing to suffer...etc.

With this in mind, we must accept that somethings are going to happen, even evil things. But we still chose to come and get a body and have life in whatever situation that brought us.

It isn't any harder for me to consider this beautiful young woman (who, up to this time had a really nice life) having to endure this horrible end which only lasted a few days at worst....than it is for me to consider a child who was born wretchedly deformed and had to live 40 or 50 years in that horrid condition.

[Guest Starsky]

Which one had it worse for the person and his/her parents? The cripple from birth or the young girl killed this week?

Yet we will cry more for the young woman who was born perfect and had her time on the earth as mostly beautiful experience and whose parents totally enjoyed her, than for the child misformed whose parents suffered greatly...as well as himself.

[HalleysComet]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 7 2004, 06:59 PM

Yet we will cry more for the young woman who was born perfect and had her time on the earth as mostly beautiful experience and whose parents totally enjoyed her, than for the child misformed whose parents suffered greatly...as well as himself.

So if a man or woman was raped or molested as a child and goes and does the same to another should we cry for them and condone it?

Halley