Assisted suicide

[Elphaba]

Or, for SS couples "Partner Assisted Suicide." Which turns into whomever designated to be the "partner" for the purposes of killing oneself.

30 years ago the thought of a physician assisting in killing someone was abhorrent. It is legal today. Yes, there is such a thing as a slippery slope. 30 some years ago homosexuals in San Francisco lobbied "to be left alone and not being harassed by the police in their private gatherings" Today they are using the power of the government to force teir social values ontot he rest of society. Just another example.

Oh, for crying out loud.

Since you enjoy gay bashing so much, couldn't you actually do it in threads that are actually about gays?

Elphaba

[Mahone]

30 years ago the thought of a physician assisting in killing someone was abhorrent. It is legal today. Yes, there is such a thing as a slippery slope. 30 some years ago homosexuals in San Francisco lobbied "to be left alone and not being harassed by the police in their private gatherings" Today they are using the power of the government to force teir social values ontot he rest of society. Just another example.

Are we really on such a slippery slope? 30 years ago, your own country was forcing people with a darker skin to ride on their own buses, go to their own schools and not allowing them to walk on the pavement with white people. Many, many people disagreed with the governments decision to allow them to actually be treated as equals. Even the church had to change one of it's own rules to accommodate the big change in society as what they were doing was racist, they cannot get out of that fact by denying to give a reason for it. The USA today still has much more prevalent racism than the UK, but it's a lot better than it was. I'm sure there are some people though who think the USA is on a downwards slippery slope and wishing it was like it was 30 years ago.

As for assisted suicide, I do not agree with it however I have seen people in immense physical pain, pain which was never going to go away, making their quality of life absolutely nil - they can see no purpose for them actually living. Until you personally have been in that situation, where you know it is not going to stop until you die, I do not believe you have any right to condemn or judge those that choose that path. We put animals and our pets down because they are in too much pain to have any quality of life and there is nothing that can be done about it. We'd rather they were out of pain, it is the kindest thing to do. Until you have been there, you just cannot understand.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Mahone

[Maxel]

Oh, for crying out loud.

Since you enjoy gay bashing so much, couldn't you actually do it in threads that are actually about gays?

Come on, he wasn't gay bashing. He was stating a fact- one that is relevant to the situation. Can you stop turning everything portraying homosexuality in an even faintly negative light as 'gay bashing'?

Are we really on such a slippery slope? 30 years ago, your own country was forcing people with a darker skin to ride on their own buses, go to their own schools and not allowing them to walk on the pavement with white people. Many, many people disagreed with the governments decision to allow them to actually be treated as equals. Even the church had to change one of it's own rules to accommodate the big change in society as what they were doing was racist, they cannot get out of that fact by denying to give a reason for it...

Slippery slopes are funny things: a person or country can be heading downhill in one area, and uphill in another. The wheat have to grow up with the tares. Saying that a slippery slope cannot exist anywhere in society based on one area that is improving doesn't hold water.

[Moksha]

The elderly are next. The feeble and infirm. Later the developmentally disabled children (which is already practiced in some quarters). Ethnic cleansing has a myriad of forms.

What about the terminally ill in intractable pain?

[Gwen]

have we forgotten the op? if i recall correctly this wasn't about assisted suicide being wrong. it wasn't about ppl in chronic pain being allowed to have an answer. it wasn't about the terminally ill being allowed to choose an early death over an agonizing one.

it was about (as would seem from the article anyway) a healthy woman who has no "reason" to want to die other than her husband was dying. she wants to die the same moment as him, in spite of the life she has left ahead of her.

by the way, does that qualify as moving down that slippery slope?

[GingerGolden]

As far as the lady in the OP, well, this is merely my opinion, but her life belongs to her, what she sees fit to do with it is her own freedom to use her own free agency to do with as she wishes. If that is her wish, then I respect what she wants. Would I encourage her?

Of course not!

[Elphaba]

Come on, he wasn't gay bashing. He was stating a fact- one that is relevant to the situation.

Of course he was gay bashing.

He'd just written a long post about assisted-suicide that was very clear and on point. Then, close to the end of his post, he suddenly throws in a gratuitious dig at the gays, when he writes:

The next step will be "Family Assisted Suicide." Or, for SS couples "Partner Assisted Suicide." Which turns into whomever designated to be the "partner" for the purposes of killing oneself.

Why in the world was it necessary to bring up SS couples in a thread about Assisted Suicide? Are SS couples somehow any better, or any worse, at promoting Assisted Suicide than heterosexuals?

Additionally, why was it necessary to mock these same-sex couples' partnerships, when they are both devoted to each other as any successful straight marriage. At least, I think it was an attempt at a joke. I didn't get it myself.

30 years ago the thought of a physician assisting in killing someone was abhorrent. It is legal today. Yes, there is such a thing as a slippery slope. 30 some years ago homosexuals in San Francisco lobbied "to be left alone and not being harassed by the police in their private gatherings" Today they are using the power of the government to force teir social values ontot he rest of society.

And here we have it.

Thirty years ago those uppity gays only asked to be left alone, and even then, it was not their place to ask for even that. Lo and behold, today they're coming out of the woodwork and actually demanding the same civil rights afforded to all Americans, and down that slope they slide.

What gives them the right to demand we accept their deviancy, their lifestyles, or their sin? How dare they go through the proper government channels to get what they believe is a fundamental right--to marry?

But, no, they don't count. They should know better than to expect anything more than what the Islanders of the world will grant them.

This is not an example of "fairly negative light" comments about people who are gay. It is much more degrading than that, and thus, it is gay bashing.

And, no, I will not ignore it if I see it.

Elphaba

[Mahone]

Of course he was gay bashing.

He'd just written a long post about assisted-suicide that was very clear and on point. Then, close to the end of his post, he suddenly throws in a gratuitious dig at the gays, when he writes:Why in the world was it necessary to bring up SS couples in a thread about Assisted Suicide? Are SS couples somehow any better, or any worse, at promoting Assisted Suicide than heterosexuals?

Additionally, why was it necessary to mock these same-sex couples' partnerships, when they are both devoted to each other as any successful straight marriage. At least, I think it was an attempt at a joke. I didn't get it myself.

And here we have it.

Thirty years ago those uppity gays only asked to be left alone, and even then, it was not their place to ask for even that. Lo and behold, today they're coming out of the woodwork and actually demanding the same civil rights afforded to all Americans, and down that slope they slide.

What gives them the right to demand we accept their deviancy, their lifestyles, or their sin? How dare they go through the proper government channels to get what they believe is a fundamental right--to marry?

But, no, they don't count. They should know better than to expect anything more than what the Islanders of the world will grant them.

This is not an example of "fairly negative light" comments about people who are gay. It is much more degrading than that, and thus, it is gay bashing.

And, no, I will not ignore it if I see it.

Elphaba

And this also explains my comparison to racism to the person who questioned it. Gay people are currently seen how black people were 30 years ago.

[GingerGolden]

Whoa!

Wow, just another reason to count it a blessing to be raised Military, even though it was hard, although I suppose gaining a 139 IQ is helpful too.

I wasn't raised to be nor have I adopted a discriminating and racist point of view when it comes to anyone and everyone and I will never encourage such in my children.

We are all the same, no matter what!

At least that's the way I see things and it is so liberating not to have to stand against a wall or in a box with a lot of others.

Thank you GOD & Daddy as well as Mother!

LOL!

And we're southerners...

Well, our family, I suppose Heavenly Father would be Universal, but I bet he'd love the south!

Edited April 6, 2009 by GingerGolden

[Gwen]

let's get back on topic or the thread will be closed.

[MarginOfError]

let's get back on topic or the thread will be closed.

Oh Gwen, quit being such a stick in the mud.

I’m not a big fan of assisted suicide, but I’m not sure how I feel about translating my moral objections into civil/criminal law. However, I do have major reservations about assisted suicide simply because I don’t trust HMO’s. I worry that HMO’s will make it near impossible to get treatment for terminal illnesses, or palliative care for that matter, because they would prefer people to go the assisted suicide route. I don’t think we have the safeguards in place to prevent that kind of abuse.

[applepansy]

We do not belong to ourselves. The thought that we do is the ultimate selfishness. We are children of a loving Heavenly Father. We are His. We have the right to choose but we have the obligation to choose right.

Suicide is wrong. The OP is shocking. I cannot imagine someone advocating a healthy person being allowed to let someone help them kill themselves.

I've had chronic pain for 20 years. Constant, unrelenting, continual PAIN. I've had days, weeks, months where I just wanted to die. Then I realized something. I'm here because my Heavenly Father needs me to do something and I'm not going to ask to die until HE is ready for me to die. I have work to do.

When I'm able to put myself aside and serve others I find I don't hurt as badly. The Lord has lifted me up physically many, many times. I'm very grateful to the pain for showing me the hand of the Lord in my life.

applepansy

[bytor2112]

And this also explains my comparison to racism to the person who questioned it. Gay people are currently seen how black people were 30 years ago.

If I were black, I might take issue with this comment. I would never know someone was "gay" unless they told me, but you can't hide being black.

[Hemidakota]

Of course he was gay bashing.

He'd just written a long post about assisted-suicide that was very clear and on point. Then, close to the end of his post, he suddenly throws in a gratuitious dig at the gays, when he writes:Why in the world was it necessary to bring up SS couples in a thread about Assisted Suicide? Are SS couples somehow any better, or any worse, at promoting Assisted Suicide than heterosexuals?

Additionally, why was it necessary to mock these same-sex couples' partnerships, when they are both devoted to each other as any successful straight marriage. At least, I think it was an attempt at a joke. I didn't get it myself.

And here we have it.

Thirty years ago those uppity gays only asked to be left alone, and even then, it was not their place to ask for even that. Lo and behold, today they're coming out of the woodwork and actually demanding the same civil rights afforded to all Americans, and down that slope they slide.

What gives them the right to demand we accept their deviancy, their lifestyles, or their sin? How dare they go through the proper government channels to get what they believe is a fundamental right--to marry?

But, no, they don't count. They should know better than to expect anything more than what the Islanders of the world will grant them.

This is not an example of "fairly negative light" comments about people who are gay. It is much more degrading than that, and thus, it is gay bashing.

And, no, I will not ignore it if I see it.

Elphaba

I do concur on what you stated is clearly undermining another special right group in the same mix as ‘AS’, but not with the statement of going through the proper channels, not what was done in the past history. It was done by back dooring their own agenda and hoping no one was paying attention. Now, that a few are paying attention, it needs now go through the proper channels but as you see, the public again, has denounced for now and the same group, very hypercritical in it own approach, crying foul to those who approach it through legal means.

We can also note, own Horrorwood, has the same agenda in promoting such lifestyles that are not in accordance with eternal principles as acceptable, through it own drudgery media sources, will eventually undermine true principles from what I term as a ‘infectious disease of evil.’

[Newcomer4831]

I'm for assisted suicide

[Mahone]

If I were black, I might take issue with this comment. I would never know someone was "gay" unless they told me, but you can't hide being black.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning? Why would you take issue with the comment? It is fact that black people were discriminated against and it is fact that gay people are currently discriminated against. If anyone took offense at my comments I apologise, but as far as I can see I stated two facts and neither were even close to being racist. I am not a racist person, very much the opposite in fact.

[Hemidakota]

As LDS people are also discriminated against. Not forgetting, even the Christian believers are discriminated against. It is a two-way street here.

[bytor2112]

I'm not sure I understand your meaning? Why would you take issue with the comment? It is fact that black people were discriminated against and it is fact that gay people are currently discriminated against. If anyone took offense at my comments I apologise, but as far as I can see I stated two facts and neither were even close to being racist. I am not a racist person, very much the opposite in fact.

You didn't state two facts. You made an erroneous comparison. Black people cannot change the color of their skin, they cannot hide the fact that they are black. A race or skin color is very different than a sexual preference.

I am betting that the blacks in this country that were lynched and beaten and had their homes burned down and were denied the rights to be seen as a human being , much less a U.S. citizen would gladly trade places with the alleged intolerance that the G/L community faces.

[Mahone]

You didn't state two facts. You made an erroneous comparison. Black people cannot change the color of their skin, they cannot hide the fact that they are black. A race or skin color is very different than a sexual preference.

I am betting that the blacks in this country that were lynched and beaten and had their homes burned down and were denied the rights to be seen as a human being , much less a U.S. citizen would gladly trade places with the alleged intolerance that the G/L community faces.

I apologise if anyone was offended, however I still think you are pulling something out of my words that was never there to begin with.

The reason I made the comparison is that someone made a point of saying it is on a downward slippery slope to effectively allow someone who is gay marry a member of the same sex and that expecting society to allow this is causing their beliefs to be forced upon us. My point was that this is discrimination, just like how the blacks were treated was discrimination. The blacks also received a blacklash when they were finally given the same rights as white people, just like gay people who are now being given the same rights to marry who they wish as someone who is "straight" in a lot of places. I have never at any point said the discrimination levels were the same, I still believe with the point that I was making the comparison was valid.

You also seem to be suggesting from the highlighted sections of your post that gay people can in fact choose whether they want to be gay and that they should have to hide it. You also seem to suggest by your word "alleged" that you do not think they are discriminated against. These are points I am not willing to get into on this thread. I may post my thoughts on this somewhere else where it is more appropriate.

However once again, I sincerely apologise if anyone took offense from my words, however absolutely no offense was meant.

Edited April 6, 2009 by Mahone

[Dravin]

I feel sorry for you Mahone, you fell victim to the emotionally charged analogy.

[bytor2112]

I apologise if anyone was offended, however I still think you are pulling something out of my words that was never there to begin with.

The reason I made the comparison is that someone made a point of saying it is on a downward slippery slope to effectively allow someone who is gay marry a member of the same sex and that expecting society to allow this is causing their beliefs to be forced upon us. My point was that this is discrimination, just like how the blacks were treated was discrimination. The blacks also received the same kind of blacklash when they were finally given the same rights as white people, just like gay people are now being given the same rights to marry who they wish as someone who is "straight". I have never at any point said the discrimination levels were the same, I still believe with the point that I was making the comparison was valid.

You also seem to be suggesting from the highlighted sections of your post that gay people can in fact choose whether they want to be gay and that they should have to hide it. You also seem to suggest by your word "alleged" that you do not think they are discriminated against. These are points I am not willing to get into on this thread. I may post my thoughts on this somewhere else where it is more appropriate.

However once again, I sincerely apologise if anyone took offense from my words, however absolutely no offense was meant.

No need to apologize Mahone....I was just making conversation:)

[Moksha]

And this also explains my comparison to racism to the person who questioned it. Gay people are currently seen how black people were 30 years ago.

You mean back when some groups took a decisive stand against the right of back people to marry? Of wait, you were talking about blatant discrimination in general. Nevermind.

[Elphaba]

I'd think its pretty obvious what it is, as for the context look at the post above it. Its from the show Futurama. It was an attempt at satire of the idea there is nothing at all wrong with suicide or assisting somebody, maybe a pinch of, if its legal and there is money involved somebody will do it, though not a particularly brilliant example of satire by any means.

I think it’s pretty obvious that it is very juvenile to rely on a cartoon for your information about suicide.

For the record suicide can be funny, but then nearly anything can be funny.

Oh, I agree. It can be hilarious. Try not to squirt your soda through your nose as you read the following:

Suicide is a particularly awful way to die: the mental suffering leading up to it is usually prolonged, intense, and agonizing. There is no morphine equivalent to ease the acute pain, and after doing everything you can think of to stop the pain, the exhaustion takes over, and you realize you passed “the end“ long ago, and that it is never going to stop. At this point, you’re not “in” pain; rather, you “are” pain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn’t that a hoot? Oh, but it gets better.

You keep trying by pushing yourself, desperate for help. You end up in the hospital’s psych ward with its assembly line psychiatry where no one can spend any one-on-one time with you, and thus, they never really get to the suicide issue.

It’s not their fault; in fact, if they didn’t care, the psych ward is the last place they’d want to work. But they’re overworked, and underpaid, doing the best they can, which means many patients fall through the net, and walk out the door strategizing how, where, and when.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you busting a gut yet? I hope not, because there's more:

When you’re at this point, the taint of suicide hovers over you. Death is inches away, some, genuinely, for the rest of their lives. You strategize and revise your strategies every minute of the day. You are desperate to end the terrorr, agony, isolation, despair, and the only thing that really works is to stop strategizing, and choose. Then. . . the relief.

Relief. It's the best feeling you‘ve had for years. The decision is made, and you know it‘s almost over. The terror of lucid dreams, the endless nights of isolation and endless pain are soon at an end.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And you thought you knew how funny suicide is. Aren't you glad you knew enough to pull of your "suicide mimes"?

No, but heck, my MTC buds and I had one missionary in our district who was very, very dull to listen to, we took to playing 'suicide mimes' (pantomiming ways we were offing ourself to get out of listening to him), not mature but we found it amusing.

How old are you? Twelve?

I’m curious as to the “suicide mimes” you came up with to off yourselves.

For example, did you think of pills? Since that’s very common, I assume you looked on the internet to determine just how many pills is enough to kill you, but not enough to make you throw them up.

Then there is the problem of where to take them. It needs to be somewhere where no one will catch on that you’re gone, but far away they won’t find you until it’s too late. That is not as easy as it sounds, believe me.

Or, did you want to make it look like an accident? That’s a pretty common way to suicide as well, so no one thinks you did it on purpose. Did you drive around, looking for just the right spot to ram your car into? Did you look up your car on the internet, to discover its weaknesses, and the least protected spot on the car to be sure it would work?

I imagine you all pretended you were hanging yourself as well. That’s a popular suicide “mime.” Did you search out a place where no one would know where you were, so they couldn’t stop you? Motel rooms are great for hangings.

Then there’s a gun. This one takes some real planning, because you can’t let on that you’re suicidal when you purchase the gun. Actually, it’s a fairly easy lie, as nothing else really matters anymore, and by the time you’re actually purchasing the gun, you’re pretty committed to using it. But where should you do it so you don’t create a hideous mess?

That’s a tough one. It doesn’t matter where you do it. Brains and gore are going to be splattered everywhere. Usually an off-the-path walking trail serves fairly well.

So, have I left anything out? Because I know a few people who could use a clever alternative.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting though that Suicide hasn't been illegal in England and Wales since the early sixties, and only a handful of US States ever did so and none no longer do. I wonder what the rational is for preventing somebody from doing something that is completely legal. I'm thinking suicide watches and the like, people throw around a sound mind, but what exactly does that mean?

I have no idea what it means, because you don’t make any sense.

I wouldn't consider the lady in the OP of being of sound mind, and if somebody thinks their life is endless emotional pain how do you determine that is a less sound judgment than endless physical pain?

I think it is pretty obvious that you determine this by talking to someone who is truly suicidal.

If you don’t agree, then you need to realize you don’t understand anything about suicide, which is fine. You don’t have to comprehend it.

The right thing to do, however, is to accept you don’t comprehend it, and stop acting as if you do by juvenile suicide mimes.

I agree, suicide can be funny. But the only people who should get to joke about it are those who live with it. Watching a cartoon about suicide does not qualify you as one of them.

I know that won’t stop you. Anyone who is cruel enough to come up with “suicide mimes” to mock a fellow missionary is not going to get it. So be it.

Elphaba

[MissyP]

And when there are people who want a body more than anything else...........

I hope she changes her mind, for her own well being.

[Elphaba]

. . . It was done by back dooring their own agenda and hoping no one was paying attention. . . .

We can also note, own Horrorwood, has the same agenda in promoting such lifestyles that are not in accordance with eternal principles as acceptable, through it own drudgery media sources, will eventually undermine true principles from what I term as a ‘infectious disease of evil.’

Hemi,

Everyone has an agenda, including you, and including me. So what?

Even Joseph had an agenda. While organizing the Church in its infancy, he certainly did his share of "backdooring." He insisted he had only one wife, when in fact, by that time he had many. But he knew if he admitted it, the already heightened prejudice against him would escalate even more, and that was dangerous not only to him, but to the Saints as well.

Thus, Joseph's agenda was to hide his polygamous practice, via the backdoor, while teaching it to the elite in the Church as a commandment of God.

It wasn't until the Church had relocated to an isolated territory that it could finally admit polygamy was part of its doctrine and religious practice.

So, what was the Church's agenda? To practice the doctrine of polygamy that God had commanded, as was their civil right according to the First Amendment.

They were denied their civil rights to freedom of religion, but they didn't stop fighting for it. This an agenda, and this was the Saints' agenda.

I am not comparing polygamy to assisted suicide. I am comparing your disdain of one's "agenda," when another "agenda" brought about the Church you love with all of your heart.

We are all entitled to choose our agenda, and you and I often disagree with what makes up our respective agendas.

But agendas in and of themselves, are not "evil" things, and we all have them.

Elphaba