G-d and Mercy

[Traveler]

Is it right (do you believe) that G-d punishes someone that was deceived and made a choice contrary to their real nature?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

It depends upon the deception and the person. If it is a 5 year old child deceived by an adult into doing something wrong, then no, the Lord would not punish the child.

If it is someone who should know better, who knows the commandments, but chooses to follow a temptation, then perhaps God could punish the person. Punishment is based upon many factors, including those we mortals may not be aware of. Punishment's purpose is to bring people to repentance, if possible. Some people must be compelled to be humble (Alma 32).

[NeuroTypical]

I think many of us are too immature (from an eternal viewpoint) to understand how our struggles and burdens are blessings instead of 'punishments'.

[Newcomer4831]

Believe it or not, we are constantly deceived. We often name things as ours, but they aren't really ours. We often think that some people might be right while others are wrong, and so forth. As for temptations again, we are always tempted. Why do you have a job, and why did you choose that job? Is it not for temptation for a better life? Or for benefits or your "interest"? These are all temptations of the body and mind. I am reluctant to think that God punishes, I believe that a person therefor punishes themselves.

[threepercent]

I dont believe that that G-d punishes anyone, at all, ever, anywhere, period.

having said that, I do believe that the atonement allows for the intercession of mercy in place of natural consequences in cases where we were not as gods, knowing good from evil. But where the law has been given, even if that law is in the form of commandment (not law), requiring faith, not a knowledge of good from evil, then mercy cannot intercede without robbing justice. And, just to make it clear as mud, we may be judged how we would have repented if we had knowledge.

for insight in the punish thingy:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Edited April 3, 2009 by threepercent

[Vort]

I dont believe that that G-d punishes anyone, at all, ever, anywhere, period.

Then perhaps you do not remember the scriptures.

D&C 19:10-12 "For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment."

Mosiah 2:33 "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge."

Alma 42:1 "And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery."

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 "...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

Deuteronomy 28: 20-22, 27-28, 35 "The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish...The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart...The Lord shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head."

2 Chronicles 26:20 "And Azariah the chief priest, and all the priests, looked upon him, and, behold, he was leprous in his forehead, and they thrust him out from thence; yea, himself hasted also to go out, because the Lord had smitten him."

Jeremiah 9:25 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised"

Edited April 3, 2009 by Vort
"Then" is often spelled with the final "n"

[Vort]

I dont believe that that G-d punishes anyone, at all, ever, anywhere, period.

Other scriptures to consider:

Mormon 3:14-15 "...the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Vengeance is mine, and I will repay..."

Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

Hebrews 10:30-31 "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

[threepercent]

guess we just understand differently.

see what LMM said.

[bytebear]

It sounds like you are looking at only one aspect of Heavenly Father. Yes, he is a God of vengence, but also of mercy, of justice and of love.

I found it interesting that the LDS Topical Guide has listed along with Vengence, see also "God, Justice of." So, my recommendation is look at the whole picture. God is perfectly just. No one who goes before the judgement bar of Christ will feel they were unfairly punished, because, unlike here on Earth where we tend to blame someone else, we will have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt.

[Islander]

guess we just understand differently.

see what LMM said.

God does punishes the wicked and the rebellious, no doubt about it.

"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away." 2 Ne 2:13

"The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him:" Jer 46:25

"Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria." Jer 50:18

"The Lord spake also unto me again, saying,

Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah’s son;

Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces." Isa 8 5 thru 9.

If this is not punishment I don't know what would qualify in your book. A little bit later, in the passage in Isaiah, the Lord brings the Assyrians into the land of Israel and just about destroyed everything. They took the the northern tribes as and dispersed them across the earth. Only Juda and Benjamin in the south survived because of the protection of the Lord as they did herken to the counsel of His prophet.

There are other references and examples where the Lord did punish for sin and rebellion.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Islander

[Vort]

guess we just understand differently.

see what LMM said.

That's fine, we understand differently, and LMM made a comment, too.

But that doesn't answer the scriptures. You said that you don't believe God ever punishes anyone. You were emphatic. I referred you to some scriptures that seem to me to disprove your emphatic belief. How do you respond to those scriptures? Saying, "Well, we just have to agree to disagree" is just another way of saying "I don't believe any scriptures except those that teach what I already believe anyway."

[Vort]

It sounds like you are looking at only one aspect of Heavenly Father.

I am examining threepercent's statement: "I dont believe that that G-d punishes anyone, at all, ever, anywhere, period."

I found it interesting that the LDS Topical Guide has listed along with Vengence, see also "God, Justice of." So, my recommendation is look at the whole picture.

Good recommendation. Is that the recommendation you would make to someone who said, "I dont believe that that G-d punishes anyone, at all, ever, anywhere, period."? Because if so, I missed your response to threepercent.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, let me expand a little:

According to my 5 yr old, I've imposed countless and weighty horrible punishments too severe to be beared without serious trauma. According to me, the kid is occasionally told 'no', and sometimes gets hauled into her room for a time out. Yes, I do lay out very clear consequences, and act as judge and bailiff when it comes to parceling out justice. So yeah, I see God doing the same stuff in the scriptures Vort mentioned.

The reason I do all that, is because I'm a loving father, and I want them to grow up healthy, independent, capable, and happy. From what I can tell, I get this from my Heavenly Father. My kids scream bloody murder and squeal like stuck pigs, but in reality, getting plopped in your bed for 10 minutes isn't exactly torture. But it is to them.

So yeah, when we look back on our infinitely quick mortal probation, we'll realize all the stresses and hardships and injustice and beatings and torments and grief - all of it - the stuff we brought on ourselves and the stuff God gave us - were for our benefit. Witholding these experiences from us would not be mercy - it would stunt our growth.

LM

[Vort]

Is it right (do you believe) that G-d punishes someone that was deceived and made a choice contrary to their real nature?

To answer the original question: I believe that our choices reflect and reveal our "real nature". People don't choose contrary to their real nature. If a person is truly deceived in that they do not understand what they are doing, then no, I don't believe there is any moral taint to that.

If you innocently choose the wrong road that has a bridge out and someone dies in the ensuing accident, I don't believe you're morally culpable of murder. But if you ignore a sign that you should have seen that says "Bridge Out" or you go around the roadblock or something, then yes, you do indeed bear some moral responsibility for the accident and its consequences. You may not be guilty of murder, but you're guilty of something.

[Traveler]

Believe it or not, we are constantly deceived. We often name things as ours, but they aren't really ours. We often think that some people might be right while others are wrong, and so forth. As for temptations again, we are always tempted. Why do you have a job, and why did you choose that job? Is it not for temptation for a better life? Or for benefits or your "interest"? These are all temptations of the body and mind. I am reluctant to think that God punishes, I believe that a person therefor punishes themselves.

I could not help but wonder about the thought I highlighted - What you say cannot possibly be true because if you are right then you are deceiving us with your post in that you are part of what is “constant” toward us to insure that we are constantly deceived. If you are not right then you are still deceiving us by implying something to be true that is wrong.

I thought I might attempt to help you unravel this paradox but the more I thought of it the more entangled it became. I think you need to rethink your thought and try again.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I have thought several times to respond to some posts. However, I do not think my original question was understood very well. I will now try to get back to the original purpose of the tread and highlight some ideas to see what people think.

One of the elements I wanted everyone to understand is that someone can be deceived into something contrary to their nature. In other words they were convinced to do something against their actual will. Deception could take the form of coercion and abuses both physical and emotional or even economic or social. I wanted to make the discussion open so I tried to make the parameters simple but in doing so I think the full extent of my question was missed.

If a person is deceived or coerced against their will what possibly could be achieved in punishment of the person deceived? How is that really truly and honestly just? I realize there is a spectrum of deception from someone beaten into submission and someone tempted or enticed.

There are two points I would like considered for discussion.

1. A person is deceived to act contrary to what they would have done without the deception. (If they had not been deceived?)

2. What do you expect from a just and merciful G-d concerning the person deceived?

The Traveler

[Vort]

I have thought several times to respond to some posts. However, I do not think my original question was understood very well. I will now try to get back to the original purpose of the tread and highlight some ideas to see what people think.

One of the elements I wanted everyone to understand is that someone can be deceived into something contrary to their nature. In other words they were convinced to do something against their actual will.

Not sure I agree. Can you give an example?

Deception could take the form of coercion and abuses both physical and emotional or even economic or social.

The freeing truth of the gospel is that we can always choose our reactions, and we own our choices.

If a person is deceived or coerced against their will what possibly could be achieved in punishment of the person deceived?

To help them learn the consequences of their actions, so they do not allow themselves to be deceived again.

How is that really truly and honestly just?

How is it not?

There are two points I would like considered for discussion.

1. A person is deceived to act contrary to what they would have done without the deception. (If they had not been deceived?)

2. What do you expect from a just and merciful G-d concerning the person deceived?

Point 1. A person is deceived to act contrary to what they would have done without the deception. (If they had not been deceived?)

This is what we commonly call "temptation". Satan deceives us into believing that the rewards of carnality exceed the rewards of spirituality. For this reason, we are commanded not to be carnal, not to yield to temptation, and not to be deceived.

Point 2. What do I expect from a just and merciful God (complete with the "o") concerning the person deceived?

I expect that God will deal justly and mercifully with the person. This just, merciful action may include explicit divine punishment and will almost certainly include allowing the person to suffer the consequences of his/her actions. In this way, the person will hopefully grow wiser and not allow himself/herself to be deceived as easily the next time.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Vort
tpyo croreciton

[Traveler]

Not sure I agree. Can you give an example?

The freeing truth of the gospel is that we can always choose our reactions, and we own our choices.

To help them learn the consequences of their actions, so they do not allow themselves to be deceived again.

How is it not?

Point 1. A person is deceived to act contrary to what they would have done without the deception. (If they had not been deceived?)

This is what we commonly call "temptation". Satan deceives us into believing that the rewards of carnality exceed the rewards of spirituality. For this reason, we are commanded not to be carnal, not to yield to temptation, and not to be deceived.

Point 2. What do I expect from a just and merciful God (complete with the "o") concerning the person deceived?

I expect that God will deal justly and mercifully with the person. This just, merciful action may include explicit divine punishment and will almost certainly include allowing the person to suffer the consequences of his/her actions. In this way, the person will hopefully grow wiser and not allow himself/herself to be deceived as easily the next time.

Perhaps if I made this personal for you. Let’s say you answered an ad for a job that would pay you much more that you are currently making and scheduled for an interview. When you went for the interview you entered the office of the person doing the interview there is a robotic device that looks to be out of control, in fact it appears that a life is in danger and someone call to you to please shutdown the robot by a switch on a table in a corner. Thinking that you can be of help you run to the switch and through it only to find out that it triggered a thermal nuclear device in a populated city like New York killing millions.

I can think of others – perhaps you are an artillery officer preparing your guns to assist in battle. You receive an order over a secure radio with coordinates for firing – The call and coordinates are a deception.

More. You purchase dinner for you and your wife and pay in cash and are given change that is counterfeit. But it is dark and you do not check the money carefully – later that night you pass a counterfeit $20 and are arrested.

Now, you believe that the merciful and just G-d you worship will punish you to make sure you never make a mistake again. And the punishments will make you more compassionate and loving; how?

I realize these are extreme examples – but I was not sure how else to get through to you.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Perhaps if I made this personal for you. Let’s say you answered an ad for a job that would pay you much more that you are currently making and scheduled for an interview. When you went for the interview you entered the office of the person doing the interview there is a robotic device that looks to be out of control, in fact it appears that a life is in danger and someone call to you to please shutdown the robot by a switch on a table in a corner. Thinking that you can be of help you run to the switch and through it only to find out that it triggered a thermal nuclear device in a populated city like New York killing millions.

I can think of others – perhaps you are an artillery officer preparing your guns to assist in battle. You receive an order over a secure radio with coordinates for firing – The call and coordinates are a deception.

More. You purchase dinner for you and your wife and pay in cash and are given change that is counterfeit. But it is dark and you do not check the money carefully – later that night you pass a counterfeit $20 and are arrested.

Now, you believe that the merciful and just G-d you worship will punish you to make sure you never make a mistake again.

No, of course I do not. That is absurd, and is certainly not what I wrote.

And the punishments will make you more compassionate and loving; how?

Why would there be punishment in such cases? You are using "deceived" to mean a blameless action. Clearly, there is no blame in the cases you mention above.

I did not think you were actually asking this at first, because the answer is so obvious that any Primary child could tell you. If you are deceived in complete innocence, there is no moral culpability involved. I already stated that in an earlier post on this thread.

I realize these are extreme examples – but I was not sure how else to get through to you.

So now I'm curious: Why ask such a seemingly obvious question? I agree that if I ask someone to turn on the light, which I have secretly wired to electrocute a hundred people, the person is not guilty of the murders of those people, and God will not punish him for their murders. This seems to be an area of some concern for you. Why? Do you think that you see divine punishment against those who innocently and without guile or knowledge do acts that have bad results?

[Justice]

I believe the answer is that consequences can be punishement. Whatever we sow, that will we reap. The reaping portion is a consequence of the sowing.

It gets deep fast, but Alma 42 holds a key to understanding the judgement, or punishment, of God.

It can be discerned in the distinction of what Alma calls the restoration, which comes to all along with the resurrection. The judgement, or punishement, of God is accomplished because He is the resurrection, and will pass it to all who lived on earth. The restoration will restore evil for evil. This is the punishement. Christ's Atonement made it possible to be forgiven of any sin committed while on earth, if repented of. But, remission of sins a different thing entirely. When you receive a remission of sins then those sins will not be restored to you during the restoration. They will be erased. Think of it like a disease in remission.

To those whose sins are not remitted, or they are restored to them, means they died in their sin, and they still desire those sins. They cannot be remitted of them because we will be restored to our desires. That He must restore us to a sinful state is His punishment and judgement because all who are restored in this way cannot be allowed to live in God's presence. It is His mercy that keeps us from His Father's presence, but it is what we desire.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Justice

[threepercent]

well, I really should just let all this go because its a useless discussion at this point. its about semantics.

vort you posted this:

D&C 19:10-12 "For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment."

and this is classic in what I am talking about. the casual student may read endless punishment to mean punishment without end. but here we see it really just means Gods punishment.

now to the other side of that phraseology, "gods punishment." punishment really means "just consequence", in a negative sense.

But I have learned that nothing God does in relationship to his children is really negative.

again, its semantics in a way that is to large of a pain the backside to try to debate over a forum, because we are weak unto writing.

[threepercent]

Is it right (do you believe) that G-d punishes someone that was deceived and made a choice contrary to their real nature?

The Traveler

so I guess you could also ask

Is it right (do you believe) that someone who places their hand in a furnace gets burned, even if they thought it was a Colman x-treem cooler?

your question is flawed.

[Vort]

well, I really should just let all this go because its a useless discussion at this point. its about semantics.

I disagree; I think this is where the discussion finally gets useful.

99.9% of philosophy is a discussion of word meaning. This is natural, since words are not just the vehicles of our thoughts but actually the clay from which they are formed. When we finally reach a point of semantic discussion, often that means that we are finally getting down to the real crux of the matter.

vort you posted this:

D&C 19:10-12 "For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment."

and this is classic in what I am talking about. the casual student may read endless punishment to mean punishment without end. but here we see it really just means Gods punishment.

now to the other side of that phraseology, "gods punishment." punishment really means "just consequence", in a negative sense.

But I have learned that nothing God does in relationship to his children is really negative.

So in effect, what you are saying is that the scripture doesn't really mean anything. "Punishment" doesn't mean anything with respect to God, because God never punishes anyone, so therefore a scripture that says "God punishes" doesn't really mean it.

That is the crux of the matter, and the very point of our disagreement.

I reject that idea. I think the scriptures are indeed meaningful. If God chose to tell us that he "punishes" the wicked, then clearly that means something. What it means might be open to interpretation, but I don't think you can just wave your hands and say "Nah, it doesn't mean anything." It does indeed mean something; it means that God punishes the wicked.

When I punish my daughter, am I "doing something negative"? Sure. But I'm doing it to drive toward a positive result -- a better-disciplined daughter. I am not looking to cause her pain or torture her, nor am I seeking to somehow relieve my own frustrations on her poor hide. I am teaching her as any loving father tries to teach his daughter. Nothing negative about that.

I believe the main problem here is that you insist on thinking of punishment as "negative" or "bad", and since you can't think of God as "negative" or "bad", you reject the idea that God punishes. But the scriptures very clearly teach that God punishes the wicked and chastises those he loves. You cannot escape it.

So you have a choice. You can:

• Reject the scriptures, claim they don't teach what they very clearly do teach, or simply ignore them and say you don't believe them, and thus continue with your current paradigm.
• Accept the scriptures and rethink your paradigm, which will probably result in you shifting your thinking on the matter of punishment.

Personally, I believe #2 is the wiser choice.

[threepercent]

I believe the main problem here is that you insist on thinking of punishment as "negative" or "bad", and since you can't think of God as "negative" or "bad", you reject the idea that God punishes. But the scriptures very clearly teach that God punishes the wicked and chastises those he loves. You cannot escape it.

So you have a choice. You can:

1. Reject the scriptures, claim they don't teach what they very clearly do teach, or simply ignore them and say you don't believe them, and thus continue with your current paradigm.

2. Accept the scriptures and rethink your paradigm, which will probably result in you shifting your thinking on the matter of punishment.

Personally, I believe #2 is the wiser choice.

1. you dont understand my thinking at all

2. you didnt get it

3. your list of choices are a direct result of your misunderstanding, and do not reflect my choices at all.

4. If I were limited to your choices, and if your assumptions were true, I would agree that #2 would be the wiser choice.

now I ask you

But the scriptures very clearly teach that God punishes the wicked and chastises those he loves

whom does he not love? just so we can make the distinction.

[Vort]

1. you dont understand my thinking at all

Then perhaps you can explain it.

2. you didnt get it

Then perhaps you can explain it.

3. your list of choices are a direct result of your misunderstanding, and do not reflect my choices at all.

Then perhaps you can explain them.

4. If I were limited to your choices, and if your assumptions were true, I would agree that #2 would be the wiser choice.

That is good to know.

now I ask you

whom does he not love? just so we can make the distinction.

I don't know. Which distinction are you trying to make? Who God chastises and who he punishes? I assume he loves the sinner. Early Church leaders who apostasized and then returned spoke of God's chastening of them for their sins, and how it brought them to repentence. They did not seem to make a distinction between chastisement and punishment.