The Sign of the Dove

[mikbone]

If you like symbolism you'll probably like this post. Or... Hate it.

Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of

The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a dove is a misconception.

Matthew 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

D&C 93:15

And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2

You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man with his left arm at his side with the forearm extended, and with his right arm to the square.

This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276

"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."

And NOT incidentally, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in this position. He also has his hand cupped so he can receive the right wrist of the person being baptized. I believe that the cupping position of the left hand is not coincidental.

Now to make a leap of faith and bring it all together...

Baptism symbolizes rebirth and the birth of Christ. We know that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Alma 7:10

And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Medical definition of conception - The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium. Or in layman's terms - when the embryo attaches to the mother's uterus wall and begins to receive sustenance from the mother.

I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.

Edited April 6, 2009 by mikbone

[HiJolly]

You and Palmoni should get together & have a party.

HiJolly

[Moksha]

Next time you see that Dove, look and see if he has CTR imprinted on his underside.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

If you like symbolism you'll probably like this post. Or... Hate it.

Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of

The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a dove is a misconception.

Matthew 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

D&C 93:15

And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2

You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man with his left arm at his side with the forearm extended, and with his right arm to the square.

This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his spiritual body in this position. He was not a dove.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276

"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."

And NOT incidentally, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in this position. He also has his hand cupped so he can receive the right wrist of the person being baptized. I believe that the cupping position of the left hand is not coincidental.

Now to make a leap of faith and bring it all together...

Baptism symbolizes rebirth and the birth of Christ. We know that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Alma 7:10

And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Medical definition of conception - The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium. Or in layman's terms - when the embryo attaches to the mother's uterus wall and begins to receive sustenance from the mother.

I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.

I like you're thinking it is definitely outside the box. I'm sure like you you don't say the things you think all the time, because I probably wouldn't have any lds friends if I did. Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body and is a Begotten Child of our heavenly Father?

Hey seriously can I bounce some of my ideas off of you? I'd be happy if you did the same...

[email protected]

web.me.com/angelpalmoni

[TheAngelPalmoni]

You and Palmoni should get together & have a party.

HiJolly

There ain't no party like a Holy Ghost Party, hahahaha, all accused religious hobbyists are invited!

~Angel Palmoni~

So I guess I'm known as a nutter...

[mikbone]

Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body and is a Begotten Child of our heavenly Father?

1) Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body?

He is a spirit. I don't like the term Spirit Body because it is misleading. The Holy Ghost does not have a tangeable body. He is a personage of spirit. I could say that Elohim has a Spirit Body and in a sense be correct. Elohim has a resurrected celestial body of Flesh and Bone, but his (Elohim's) body does not have blood flowing through his veins. I imagine that Elohim's body is quickened by spirit or a kind of light that flows thru his circulatory system. So no, I do not believe that he, the Holy Ghost, has a Spirit Body. I believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.

2) Is the Holy Ghost a Begotten Child of our Heavenly Father?

Im unsure of the question. In what sense do you mean Begotten? For example. I believe that my Spirit was begotten by Elohim. My mortal physical tabernacle was begotten by my mortal parents. My soul on Earth has been spiritually begotten or reborn by Jesus Christ through the ordinance of his atonement and my earthly baptims. D&C 76:24, 93:22, Mosiah 5:7. If I had to make a guess I would say probably. But I don't know. Current revelations that we have concerning the specifics of his origin are limited.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Well I'll be the first to agree with the fact that revelation has limited info about the Holy Ghost... What we have is A and Z and we are left to ponder everything in between. That being said I'm a really good problem solver and I love to ponder.

Yes the term Spirit is misleading I agree... How do you feel about the term Intelligence....

[jadams_4040]

If you like symbolism you'll probably like this post. Or... Hate it.

Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of

The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a dove is a misconception.

Matthew 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

D&C 93:15

And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2

You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man with his left arm at his side with the forearm extended, and with his right arm to the square.

This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his spiritual body in this position. He was not a dove.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276

"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."

And NOT incidentally, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in this position. He also has his hand cupped so he can receive the right wrist of the person being baptized. I believe that the cupping position of the left hand is not coincidental.

Now to make a leap of faith and bring it all together...

Baptism symbolizes rebirth and the birth of Christ. We know that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Alma 7:10

And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Medical definition of conception - The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium. Or in layman's terms - when the embryo attaches to the mother's uterus wall and begins to receive sustenance from the mother.

I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.

would that be in greek, latin, or hebrew?:)

[TheAngelPalmoni]

I can't read any of those Languages and I can read it fine.... maybe you should get that checked out.

Somehow Christ as an intelligence saw God the Father in the Last Plan of Salvation do what Christis doing here.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Which could mean that there is a perfect intelligence watching Christ in this Plan of Salvation, and will in the next plan of Salvation be the Christ.....

[mikbone]

I reject the idea that there is a Royal Line of perfect anointed souls that can progress through the eternities like Jehovah and Elohim. If this was so, all the other non-perfect spirit children of Elohim would be illegitimate heirs and not be able to inherit his fullness.

Unless youve figured that one out?

[TheAngelPalmoni]

So you are saying that at some point in the eternities as intelligences we were equal in running to be a "savior" and Christ was the only one who pulled it off? So you or I could have been a Christ?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.

I was with you right up until this last statement. I do not believe that the Holy Ghost delivered an already fertilised embryo. Jesus was divine on his father's side but mortal on his mother's side. He had to be or he would not have beenable to suffer pain and death. He needed a mortal body. What the Holy Ghost delivered was one half, Mary's own body provided the other half.

Quite apart from the Atonement though, Jehovah was a spirit being not an immortal being so he would have needed a mortal body at some point in order to progres himself anyway.

[mikbone]

I was with you right up until this last statement. I do not believe that the Holy Ghost delivered an already fertilised embryo. Jesus was divine on his father's side but mortal on his mother's side. He had to be or he would not have beenable to suffer pain and death. He needed a mortal body. What the Holy Ghost delivered was one half, Mary's own body provided the other half.

Quite apart from the Atonement though, Jehovah was a spirit being not an immortal being so he would have needed a mortal body at some point in order to progres himself anyway.

So can we agree that the Holy ghost at least delivered Elohim's haploid DNA to Mary's womb? If so the symbolism still works.

Jehovah's tabernacle in the pre-existence is a very interesting point. Don't know that I want to go there though...

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Ok, So the way that I think that it could at least make some logical sense... We Progressed through eternity as intelligences from various levels of Darkness to Light until a point of where our intelligences were at the level ready to be organized into spiritual bodies. There are intelligences behind us that are also progressing, so when we are in divine position to organize intelligences for the next plan of Salvation. These Lower Intelligences (Below us) are still apart of the Plan of Salvation as the Light of Christ, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

[mikbone]

Ok, So the way that I think that it could at least make some logical sense... We Progressed through eternity as intelligences from various levels of Darkness to Light until a point of where our intelligences were at the level ready to be organized into spiritual bodies. There are intelligences behind us that are also progressing, so when we are in divine position to organize intelligences for the next plan of Salvation. These Lower Intelligences (Below us) are still apart of the Plan of Salvation as the Light of Christ, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Intelligence -> Spirit -> Mortal body -> Immortal body - This we know

Defining Intelligence is difficult to do though. There has just been so little revealed about them. The only scripture that seems to allude to them is Abraham 3:18-26. But I think that the term intelligence used in this scripture actually is refering to the the level of righteousness of the spirit not the actual intelligence that we have come to think of as the pool of material that God uses to organize spirits.

I would never use the word darkness to describe an intelligence. Although obviously there are different levels of brilliance.

The Light of Christ is a whole different thing though.

Edited April 5, 2009 by mikbone

[TheAngelPalmoni]

You are correct that we don't know that much about intelligences, but I assume they are in the form of a personage. My intelligence is running this machine body of mine. D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed an be. D&C 93:23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of Truth;

Intelligence is the Light of Truth, or the Spirit of Truth, or the Light of Christ Spirit of Christ Holy Ghost.

Interestingly whatever principle of intelligence we attain in this life with rise with us in the Resurrection. If all you attain and accept in this life is the Light of Christ then you are at a TEL Glory. If you attain and accept the Spirit of Christ (Confirmation) "His Spirit to be with them" then the TER Glory. If you attain the Holy Ghost, or calling and Election, then the CEL Kingdom.

[WillowTheWhisp]

So can we agree that the Holy ghost at least delivered Elohim's haploid DNA to Mary's womb? If so the symbolism still works.

.

Yes, absolutely.

[mikbone]

Yes, absolutely.

Woot!

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm getting on sensitive ground here and won't pursue a discussion on the point, but may I suggest that you consider the hand position of both the person being baptized and the person doing the baptizing? Now compare them to a couple of elements of the endowment, and consider: Why the difference?

(Answer: I have no idea. But I don't think it's just a coincidence.)

[mikbone]

There are no coincidences.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

The Hand Placements are simply the most convenient way of plugging your nose and being dunked...

[WillowTheWhisp]

The one being baptised doesn't seem to correspond to any other hand position symbolism to me.

[Moksha]

The Hand Placements are simply the most convenient way of plugging your nose and being dunked...

Although experienced swimmers (and even bathers) know not to breath in while under water.

BTW, what about the symbolism of total immersion as it relates either to mother's admonition to not forget to scrub everywhere, or to the weakness incurred by Achilles when his mom forgot to dunk all of him?

[Traveler]

Isn’t the Holy Ghost a girl? I believe there is a scripture that says that the Holy Ghost was a broad in the land?

The Traveler