1 Nephi 4:11

[Snow]

this was a lawful killing, therefore not murder, even by your posted definition.

That is factually untrue - twice.

1. To kill (another human) unlawfully... it was unlawful to chop off the heads of wealthy Jewish citizens and steal from them. Why do you think Nephi did it in secret.

2. To kill brutally or inhumanly... chopping off someone's head is brutal, any way you look at it.

You are wrong on both counts.

yes, you can turn the other cheek, but you are required to defend your family, as I edited the post that distinction became lost in translation. opps. this is taken into account when nephi was commanded to slay Laban, thus removing the option from Nephi to "turn the other cheek" or to "extend mercy". By receiving this command Nephi was also released from the law of mercy. it is nessasary to learn addition before multiplication.

That's not a requirement to defend yourself or family as you originally claimed. That's simply a requirement to obey commandments.

I have no need to demonstrate that Nephi was defending himself when I was posting a example that KILLING is not unlawful. and if KILLING is not by itself unlawful, then the first thing you need to establish is if this was a lawful or unlawful killing.

Then your example was irrelevant. Nephi was not defending himself.

I also have posted previously that there is a difference between a commandment and a law. "Thou shalt not kill" is a commandment not a law, so may be rescinded at any time. If you do not understand this distinction you will not be able to understand at all.

That's also irrelevant. Chopping of heads was both illegal and brutal... thus making it murder, whether or not it was against a commandment. However, teh 10 Commandments are part of "The Law" so I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

now I have to ask you, snow, to go back and read the answer to this question.

the basic principles of law may be found in this account.

That's fine if you don't know the answer. I'll ask somebody else... Why didn't God kill Laban himself?

If anyone wants to understand the law better, feel free to pm me, I would love to teach those who want to know, in a spirit that is edifying and uplifting, in contrast to contentious.

Seriously Dude - you don't even seem to be aware that the 10 Commandments are part of The Law.

[Snow]

Well . . . they recite scriptures that clearly support their arguments and assume that that concludes the matter . . . yeah.

I'm not comfortable taking demonstrable errors in the Bible and using those as proof that the Book of Mormon contains the same types of errors. Our whole religion is based (at least in significant part) on the idea that the Book of Mormon was needed because it is in some sense more "pure", theologically, than the Bible alone was.

I am not claiming that the BoM account is wrong. I am simply pointing out that so far, no one here is able to reconcile it very well.

I think I would use a slightly different thought process.

Step 1: Did it happen, or didn't it?

Step 2: If it did, how can we reconcile this with a God who tells us that He is just and benevolent?

Logic and reason are certainly important, but if/when they lead us to rewrite an unequivocal self-identified historical record that was created and affirmed by a number of men who hold themselves out to be (and whom we profess to be) prophets of God--I start to get a little worried.

Nephi said that God told him--repeatedly--to kill Laban. I'm not ready to throw that narrative out merely because it doesn't jibe with the lately-evolved mores of a society that has known nothing of true self-defense for at least three generations.

That is one approach - however it isn't particularly encompassing of all the options. Note that God Himself is silent on the matter. He isn't publicly sharing His opinion on the matter.

Why do you think that self defense is an issue. It's been awhile since I've read the account but Nephi wasn't defending himself at the time.

[Snow]

No, while similar, the message is 'don't seek to counsel the Lord'- that is, don't try to tell Him how He could do such-and-such better. Don't tell Him (or us) that He should have caused a cerebral vascular accident instead of in Laban instead of commanding Nephi to kill Laban.

Oh - this is going to be laborious.

I'll spell it. I am not telling God anything. I am questioning the account.

The logic is written out for you, plain as the words in 1 Nephi 4:10-18. You are merely rejecting said logic.

Nope. That doesn't explain why God didn't do it Himself.

However, I admit that the idea of 'violence against innocence' somewhat puzzles me. It is clear that the inhabitants of Jericho were far from innocent. I assume you are talking about the children and animals- in that case, I don't really know why the Lord would command His servants to kill children and animals. However, I'm not one to let what I don't know adversely affect what I do know. I also know that any innocent child inherits celestial glory.

We are not talking about what you "do know." We are talking about what you do not know. That is what is at issue.

I quite agree. I believe the BoM is more than capable (and the most correct book on earth) of conveying true doctrine- such as "the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes" (1 Nephi 4:13). I don't believe the BoM- prophetically declared the "most correct book on earth" and that "a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book" (Book of Mormon Introduction)- contains blatantly false doctrine of such a heinous nature as you are implying that it does.

Nope - I know of no false doctrine in the BoM so it would be hard for me to imply it, since I don't even know what it would be.

Yes, it is cynical, because even when you are point-blank told by Nephi that the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring about His righteous purposes, you reject that because it doesn't 'sit well' with you. That's cynicism.

1. You are misusing the word 'cynicism.'

2. I was not told "point-blank" by Nephi. I was told by Joseph Smith about someone he calls Nephi and what JS says Nephi says. Accuracy is important.

So, has he revealed to you that He doesn't? If not, will you admit that you really just don't know because the matter is too difficult to arrive at through purely logical means because revealed scripture seems to contradict human logic?

I believe that God has revealed to me that he is just and benevolent... so when an account conflicts with justice and benevolence, I have difficulty reconciling that with logic and my testimony.

Let's put it this way... some annonymous people 3000 years ago or so claimed that God

No- merely that the same spirit that killed the Egyptians is the same spirit of revelation. That God does, in fact, slay the wicked to bring about His righteous purposes. I don't think you're worthy of death.

Let's put it this way... some annonymous people 3000 years ago or so claimed that God slayed the wicked, etc.

I am pleased that you do not find me worthy of death. I shall rest easy tonight.... do you know where I live?

If I was being petulant, you're being condescending, and we've both considerably weakened our cases.

The problem would be if I were condescending IN PLACE OF rebutting your argument. Generally I am condescending on top of what ever else I am saying. It's like an added bonus.

So, what about the doctrine- from the Book of Mormon- that the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring about His righteous purposes and that He commands His servants to sometimes take the life of others? Perusing the Ensign article from Connie might help you understand how I am so willingly able to accept these cases from the Bible- where entire nations were destroyed under the swords of the Israelites acting under the direct commandment of God- as accurate and reflecting true doctrine.

I would be very, very interested if you were to ask a question of The Ensign or the Church's public relations department... if it was a true doctrine of the Church that sometimes God commands prophets, seers and revelators to commit murder. If you do, let me know how they respond.

Till then - I'll have to defer, not fully understanding the issue.

Even if I were to accept ALL the accounts of God commanding His followers to kill others in the Bible are somehow 'misreported' (btw, I know that's not what you're saying) that still does not erase the fact that we see the exact same thing happening in the Book of Mormon. Ultimately, my reasoning for accepting said accounts in the Bible stems from the reasoning given for Nephi's slaying of Laban. It is a case where doctrine from the Book of Mormon forms the foundation for understanding biblical accounts.

Frankly, I am saying that such Bible accounts are misreported. The account of the children being killed by a prophet because they teased him about being bald is an a good account. Either it is wrong, or something else important is missing. As for the Book of Mormon account... I don't know one way or the other.

I think the obvious answer is: He did because He did- we first must accept that fact before we understand the reasoning for it. Personally, I believe it was partly a test of faith and that there are other reasons we don't quite understand. Is there evidence to support it? If you believe in the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture- yes. (Not to say that you don't accept it as inspired scripture)

An appeal to mystery does not satisfy me.

Thank you for your very thoughtful and considered responses. I'll read the rest as soon as I can.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Snow

[Just_A_Guy]

I am not claiming that the BoM account is wrong. I am simply pointing out that so far, no one here is able to reconcile it very well.

If you speak of reconciling Nephi's behavior to 21st-century notions of justice and fair play and "legality", I agree.

If you speak of reconciling Nephi's behavior to 7th century B.C. Jewish law, or to the will of God Himself as affirmed by Nephi and Alma and relayed on to us via Joseph Smith--I'm not so sure.

Note that God Himself is silent on the matter. He isn't publicly sharing His opinion on the matter.

I'm a little curious as to how He could weigh in on the matter in a way that would be persuasive to you?

Why do you think that self defense is an issue. It's been awhile since I've read the account but Nephi wasn't defending himself at the time.

I don't recall advancing such an argument; but it's late and I'm tired and I could be wrong. Point me to where I made that point, and I'll do my best to clarify. :)

[Snow]

If you speak of reconciling Nephi's behavior to 21st-century notions of justice and fair play and "legality", I agree.

If you speak of reconciling Nephi's behavior to 7th century B.C. Jewish law, or to the will of God Himself as affirmed by Nephi and Alma and relayed on to us via Joseph Smith--I'm not so sure.

- I am not claiming that Nephi's action, prompted by God, was unjust - that notion better fits OT narratives.

- I'd be willing to bet that chopping of people's head and stealing their property was illegal in 7th Century BC Jerusalem.

I'm a little curious as to how He could weigh in on the matter in a way that would be persuasive to you?

Make a public statement... instead of the current no statement - a hidden and invisible God.

I don't recall advancing such an argument; but it's late and I'm tired and I could be wrong. Point me to where I made that point, and I'll do my best to clarify. :)

Post 93: Nephi said that God told him--repeatedly--to kill Laban. I'm not ready to throw that narrative out merely because it doesn't jibe with the lately-evolved mores of a society that has known nothing of true self-defense for at least three generations.

[Justice]

Why God didn't do it Himself is a very different question than was God able to do it Himself.

God was capable of doing it Himself. The same holds true for building an ark, freeing the children of Israel from Egypt, killing everything in the promised land to make way for the covenant people of Israel, and on and on. The fact is that God rarely does anything for man that man is able to do himself.

If you read the account of where Nephi killed Laban you will see why God commanded Nephi to do it, instead of doing it Himself.

After Laman's first attempt to get the plates, these are the words Nephi used to convince his brothers to try again.

1 Nephi 3:

17 For he knew that Jerusalem must be destroyed, because of the wickedness of the people.

18 For behold, they have rejected the words of the prophets. Wherefore, if my father should dwell in the land after he hath been commanded to flee out of the land, behold, he would also perish. Wherefore, it must needs be that he flee out of the land.

Everyone in Jerusalem already had their fate sealed. They were going to die anyway, or be taken into bondage (which may have been worse).

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

20 And also that we may preserve unto them the words which have been spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets, which have been delivered unto them by the Spirit and power of God, since the world began, even down unto this present time.

Their offspring, where ever they end up, would need to have the scriptures.

The second time they went back to their house and gathered up all their valuable property and took it to Laban to trade it for the brass plates. He stole their property and sent his servants to kill them.

27 And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock.

Then Laman and Lemuel began to hit them with a "rod." An angel came and told them the Lord would deliver Laban into their hands this time.

31 And after the angel had departed, Laman and Lemuel again began to murmur, saying: How is it possible that the Lord will deliver Laban into our hands? Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command fifty, yea, even he can slay fifty; then why not us?

This is not allegorical. Laban could have sent 50 men to find Lehi and his family, and what I gather from this story is that he would have. Laman no doubt told Laban, the first attempt to get the plates, that his father took his family into the wilderness because he was told that the people of Jerusalem were wicked and about to be destroyed. From the way Laman acted and murmmered about leaving Jerusalem, it's my speculation that he was dying to tell someone how he felt he was wronged. In my estimation, this is why Laban was angry. I don't know of any other reason why he would become angry and seek to kill Laman for simply asking for the plates.

As you know, they drew straws and the lot fell on Nephi. He returned and found Laban drunk. He probably bought a bunch of good wine with Lehi's property. The Lord commanded Nephi to kill him. Read the account closely.

1 Nephi 4:

6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

The first time they took no thought, made no plans, they just cast lots. Laman did not follow the spirit, nor did he even take seriously that he was on the Lord's errand. The second time they tried to trade worldly possesions for the plates, relying on their own strength. The third time Nephi relied on the Lord, and the Lord provided the way.

Nephi needed to learn to rely on the Lord to help him accomplish his tasks. He was being prepped for building a ship, and everything else he would have to do that required his hard work and dedication, including killing Laman and Lemuel's offspring when they would come to war against them. Also, they needed a prototype of a sword they could use to make others in their defense.

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.

The Lord prepared the way.

9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

It was not his intention to kill Laban, but to disarm him. But, had he left Laban there, Laban could have commanded his 50 servants to find Lehi's family in the wilderness and claim them to be theives. It appears from the remaining conversation that this is exactly what Laban would have done.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

Nephi is starting to reason as a man reasons. He lists 3 of the reasons he thought of that he felt justified killing Laban. But, those were not the Lord's reasons.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

The Spirit begins to enlighten him to the Lord's purposes... watch:

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall cprosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

By "prospering" the Lord did not mean "become rich." The Lord does not care how rich His people become, so be if they remain humble. Mormon, while abridging the account of Captain Moroni, tells us what the Lord meant by "prospering" them.

Alma 48:

14 Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.

15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

16 And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

Clearly this was the lesson the Lord taught Nephi that day, and this is the lesson Nephi taught to his children. This promise was repeated by virtually every prophet and people in the Book of Mormon.

I would think the Lord's lesson here was taught loud and clear to Nephi that day, because he did teach it to his children, and it carried on with them even until the time of Moroni.

Sometimes, even often, the Lord asks us to do something He could do in order to teach us a valuable lesson that we can then pass on to our children.

Plus, had Laban remained alive, he no doubt would have sent men to find them, claming they stole his property. Laban was one of those men whose fate was sealed because of his wickedness. This is apparent by how he dealt with the sons of Lehi. It was justified, and the Lord knew it was the only way. And, what a powerful lesson of obedience it taught Nephi that he would need for the future.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Justice

[Just_A_Guy]

I'd be willing to bet that chopping of people's head and stealing their property was illegal in 7th Century BC Jerusalem.

I should have clarified--when I spoke of "legality" I meant according to the law as given to Moses and as would have been administered under a government that was faithful to that law. Perhaps I should have used the term "lawfulness" instead.

Jesus' behavior was "illegal" by the standards of His day--sufficiently so to get him executed by the civil authorities. But it was most certainly "lawful".

Make a public statement... instead of the current no statement - a hidden and invisible God.

How does God make a public statement, if not through prophets and scripture?

Post 93: Nephi said that God told him--repeatedly--to kill Laban. I'm not ready to throw that narrative out merely because it doesn't jibe with the lately-evolved mores of a society that has known nothing of true self-defense for at least three generations.

Thanks. I think one could argue an element of "pre-emptive self-defense" there (against future retribution by a living and furious Laban). I can see why this would be unsatisfying, though, particlarly to modern-day people who watched in horror as America launched a largely pre-emptive war against Iraq.

The overall point I was driving towards, though, is that our culture is in a very poor position to do any Monday morning quarterbacking over the "morality" of something that happened 2600 years ago in a culture that is completely alien to us.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[TruthSeekerToo]

The overall point I was driving towards, though, is that our culture is in a very poor position to do any Monday morning quarterbacking over the "morality" of something that happened 2600 years ago in a culture that is completely alien to us.

Actually, I know I have read that we are supposed to judge other civilizations equally. I'm thinking it could have been said by a church historian and not a GA, though. And I have no idea how to find the quote again so take it for what you will.

Are we not horrified at the human sacrifices on the tops of temples and pyramids? We should be! Are we not horrified at cannabalism? We should be!

Is God the same yesterday, today and forever? If so then the rules of morality should also be unchanged, IMO.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative. I should proabably just leave this thread alone now. We'll all just have to agree to disagree about some aspects of this.

[Maxel]

I thought I'd finish my involvement in this thread by posting scriptures that clearly support my case, and defend Nephi's and God's actions. In doing so, I'd like to quote the arguments brought against Nephi (and the Lord) and answer them with canonical scripture. I remind everyone that canonized scripture is just that: a canon (or 'a rod for testing straightness') of prophetic writings that accurately reflect and teach us, the human race, about God's nature and workings among us His children.

This post is meant to be a sweeping refutation acceptable to all who accept and believe in the scriptures. The reasoning behind all of these scriptures, and how they can be applied to the situation at hand, can be found before this post, from the various defenders of the faith. In the cases where I submit new scripture as support, I will include a brief explanation. Kudos to Justice's wonderful formatting in post #106 for the inspiration for the format of this post.

I have also chosen to respond to a few outlandish remarks that fly in the face of real logic and reason, but have significant bearing on the issue at hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--Newcomer4831 asks in post #1:

"Here [in 1 Nephi 4:11] the Spirit asks Nephi to slay Laban. Why would a good spirit do such a thing?"

Answer: 1 Nephi 4:13:

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #6:

"Yes I did read the whole thing and saying that killing a man to save a thousand is hardly an excuse for murder."

Response: Newcomer is rejecting scripture. See 1 Nephi 4:13.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #6:

"Even if he didn't obtain the brass plates, like someone said 'Truth cannot be destroyed, just buried or forgotten.' If this is so, then the plates would somehow come to pass regardless if Nephi obtained them."

Response: Isaiah 55:8-9

8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Jacob 4:10:

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #6:

"And couldn't God have done the slaying? A simple heart attack can suffice."

Response:

Jacob 4:10:

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

New scriptural evidence: D&C 1:38 clearly states that, when it comes to fulfilling God's commandments and purposes ('what I the Lord have spoken'), there is no difference whether He Himself does the work (through phenomenal miracles, such as a heart attack to Laban) or His servants do the work (through human means, such as Nephi killing Laban). We can assume that there is a deeper reason for every time when God specifically commands His children to do an act that He Himself could do. In the case of Nephi, we can safely assume it was a faith-building exercise as well as the fulfillment of previous revelation.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #21:

"To say that God did the killing through Nephi is like saying that Hitler killed the Jews through God."

Response: Newcomer is assuming that either Nephi was not really commanded to kill Laban, or that Hitler was commanded to kill the Jews. He assumes that one case is analogous to the other; his reasoning is entirely circular and based in his own perception of morality.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #21:

"And really? You don't think there is a difference between a heart attack and actual murder? I see that you have no conception of morality."

Response:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

--Newcomer4831 says in post #29:

"What's stopping from the voice that Nephi heard to actually be Satan?"

Response: The best response I can give is that 'It says the voice is from God, and I have received a witness of the Book of Mormon's truth'. Ironically, this question presupposes that the Book of Mormon is, in fact, historical truth. Scripturally, I submit the following as support:

D&C 8:2

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

D&C 9:8-9

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong;

--Newcomer4831 said in post #29:

"And again I fail to see the positive outcomes of the death."

Response: 1 Nephi 4:14-16

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.

16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.

--Newcomer4831 said in post #29:

"How do we know it's wrongful, because we have a thing called empathy... How does Laban feel, how does his family feel, how does society feel?"

Response: Matthew 10:37

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

New scriptural support: I would add that "he who loveth the wicked and society more than me is not worthy of me".

1 John 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus said... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

New scriptural support: We are to love the things of God before the things of men. Empathy for our fellow man, while crucial, is below love for God in importance.

--Newcomer4831 said in post #29:

"I for one would use other means to obtain the plates, through cunning or percerverence. God gave me things like logic and empathy, I tend to use them. If God wants me to kill, he would have to do way with those for I will not throw them away on my own."

Response: 1 Samuel 15:22

22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

New scriptural support: To obey the direct commandments of the Lord is greater and more important than to obey the general commandments of the Lord. That is to say, if the Lord commands us to kill although the law says 'Thou shalt not kill', it is better to obey the Lord's direct command than the general law.

Joshua 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

New scriptural support: Although serving the Lord may sometimes go against our lower, human consciences, it is most important to follow His commands- even when we don't understand them. It's important to note that Joshua specifically mentions the anomaly of humans sometimes perceiving the Lord's commandments as evil- it seems that Joshua is speaking directly to this situation, his words fit so perfectly.

--HEthePrimate said in post #61:

"I'm sure I'll catch flak for this, but the Spirit did NOT really tell Nephi to do that. The story told in the BoM is a justification used to explain why Nephi murdered an unarmed man, and make it more palatable."

Response: I don't even need to answer this with scripture. HEthePrimate is simply rejecting modern-day revelation and scripture: it is as simple as that. All his arguments can be summed up in a word- 'apostate'. I want to point out the rich irony of him referencing a Mormon 'intellectual' journal such as Dialogue to support his views. I will, however, quote Paul. Take his word for it, not mine.

2 Timothy 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

--Snow said in post #66:

"God tests the faith of this righteous and faithful servants by having them commit murder?"

Response: D&C 132:36-37

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

New scriptural support: It is clear that when a person does that which he is commanded- and only that which he is commanded, not transgressing the lower law (in the case of Nephi, 'thou shalt not kill') beyond what the higher law (following God's direct commandments) absolutely requires- it is "accounted unto him for righteousness". That is, doing what we are commanded is a successful completion of a trial of our faith- be it taking another's life, living in polygamy or taking concubines, or whatever the Lord sees fit to command us to do.

--Snow said in post #75:

"God, I believe, represent truth and logic and all things from God are therefore true and logical. Trying to understand reason and truth in scripture is a noble cause."

Response: Jacob 4:10

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

New scriptural support: I emphasize a different portion of this scripture to highlight a different doctrine. I agree with Snow that "trying to understand reason and truth in scripture is a noble cause", but when a person rejects plain and simple scripture to find said "reason and truth", that person has trespassed the bounds of healthy inquiry and is treading on dangerous, forbidden ground. See Joshua 24:15 and 1 Nephi 8:28.

--HEthePrimate said in post #81:

"Is it so hard to believe that the "unjustified self-defense" was not later removed? You[, Maxel] believe what he said, after all--why wouldn't Moroni, et al.?"

Response: Again, no real scripture is needed to refute this idea. The logical conclusion of this idea- that later prophets may have been duped be earlier prophets- is that prophets aren't really inspired of God to bring forth scripture that edifies mankind. This idea is refuted merely by gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon as inspired scripture- something I hope the average reader of this post will have done already. If not, I wholeheartedly encourage it.

The logical conclusion from HEthePrimate's argument that later prophets could be dupe by previous prophets, while we non-prophets can see through the charade, is that prophets have a lessened sense of morality and a lesser ability to detect deceit. We know this is the exact opposite of the truth.

--HethePrimate said in post #81:

"You talk about picking-and-choosing. News bulletin: Everybody picks and chooses what they believe from the scriptures! With all the contradictions and problems in the scriptures, you kinda have to."

Response: Apparently, HEthePrimate is unaware that there are people who accept the Holy Scriptures in their entirety and trust on the Holy Ghost to teach them the intended lessons from said scriptures- and furthermore are able to reconcile those seemingly contradictions and problems through the "synchronization of the Spirit".

While a case might be made for the Old/New Testament being partly uninspired, no such case can be made for the Book of Mormon: as a volume of scripture, the Book of Mormon teaches doctrine on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, and therefore we must accept all of it or it is like we accept none of it. It is plain; it is simple. It is not like the Bible, a collection of authoritative books assembled by largely uninspired men- it is a sacred, wholly inspired record preserved from the time of Nephi to this day, always being watched over by prophets, seers, and revelators.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In closing, I would like to point out the fact that choosing to disbelieve part of the revealed scriptures- especially the Book of Mormon- solely because it doesn't jive with one's own concept of 'morality' leads to apostasy. There is no honest, consistent, and logical conclusion to the idea that Nephi was not commanded to kill Laban other than the scriptures are not inspired and, by default (or perhaps as the reason), the prophets are not inspired. Clearly, this is not only an unacceptable position to take, but also the wrong position to take as it is false.

[Finrock]

Actually, I know I have read that we are supposed to judge other civilizations equally. I'm thinking it could have been said by a church historian and not a GA, though. And I have no idea how to find the quote again so take it for what you will.

Are we not horrified at the human sacrifices on the tops of temples and pyramids? We should be! Are we not horrified at cannabalism? We should be!

Is God the same yesterday, today and forever? If so then the rules of morality should also be unchanged, IMO.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative. I should proabably just leave this thread alone now. We'll all just have to agree to disagree about some aspects of this.

Goodday TruthSeekerToo! I don't know about you, but up here in Michigan I'm ready for some warmth and sunshine. It seems to me that the world needs to double its global warming efforts, cause having near freezing weather in April is getting a bit silly!

I wanted to comment on your post to Just_A_Guy, but first I wanted to share one last general point in regards to this topic.

I'm probably the least knowledgable when it comes to knowing all the ins-and-outs of these things. Many people have made some really reasonable points and there is certainly merit in asking questions about events that seem so foreign to our experience, like being commanded by the Spirit to lobbing the heads off of wicked drunk people. I would venture to guess that none of us have any real experience by which we can relate to that thing specifically. As I mentioned in my last post to you, however, there does seem to be at least some very important items that are relevant to us and we can learn some very valueable truths.

May I suggest, in all sincerity, that perhaps the question to focus on is not: Why did God command Nephi to kill Laban, but instead to focus on the question: Is the Book of Mormon truly the word of God and is it true? I think that as we approach the Book of Mormon as a factual account as being the inspired word of God, perserved to come forth in our time for our good, we will read it with a perspective of faith rather than a perspective of skepticism. Once we've confirmed, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the book is true and we read it from this perspective of faith, we can be confident that whatever the reasons were for Nephi being commanded to kill Laban, it was done in righteousness and God's mercy and justice were metted out perfectly. There have been many explanations given to explain, in rational terms, why the killing of Laban was justified. There are certainly reasonable alternatives that we can accept other than Nephi was a wicked murderer and the account in 1 Nephi 4 is unrealible and therefore we should not accept it as being scripture (Note: I am not claiming this is your stance, but using it simply to illustrate my point). This is why I believe the issue here isn't really about logic, or reason, but rather about faith. As our faith increases in God, so will our confidence increase in his word (scriptures) and in his prophets. Whatever the reasons are, we can say without equivocation: I know Nephi acted in righteousness.

In regards to what Just_A_Guy posted, I wanted to make a few comments. I believe that his post was relying on a principle we find in scripture. Let me quote some of these scriptures to flesh this out. Here are the scriptures:

"For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation" (D&C 82:3).

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is dgiven, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Luke 12:48).

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (4:17).

The general tenor of these scriptures is that God doesn't judge all people the same. That knowledge of a principle plays a role in the severity of the judgement. It is true that eternal principles do not change. However, people's knowledge of eternal principles and their circumstances do change. It is my understanding that God works with his people at the level that they are at and judges them accordingly. The Israelites were given the Law of Moses because they could not live the higher law. The principle of us learning and understanding the gospel "line upon line, and precept upon precept" also seems to indicate that we are judged based on the light that is within us. We can look at the Law of Consecration as another example. It is an eternal law, yet we are not obligated to live this law to it's fullest extent at this time (i.e., giving all our possessions to the church and having all things in common, etc.), and this is not held againts us because that. Our circumstances and/or our readiness as a people apparently are such that God has given us leeway in this matter. Now, whether or not this was the case with Nephi, I do not know, but if I have understood Just_A_Guy correctly, then his point does have merit insofar as what we can read in the scriptures and what we can know concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You bring up many important points and you should know that you are not alone in some of your concerns and that it is a good thing to question and wonder about the gospel with faith. I commend you for caring enough about these things to want to ask questions and to listen to answers. I know that I have very little wisdom to impart, but I do enjoy sharing some things that I've learned and have come to understand. I just hope that my posts are helpful to you and not a hinderance.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[TruthSeekerToo]

I thank everyone for their helpful posts. I especially appreciate your words of kindness, Finrock. I'll try to send some of our lovely weather your way!

Again, I don't wish to sit here and argue every point. It doesn't feel right, so I won't do it.

I've had a testimony of the BoM since I was 14. I never did any deeper questioning than that and always believed things literally. That isn't where I'm at anymore. My spiritual journey (as guided by the Spirit and Light of Christ in me) has put me on a path to learn deeper things. I think I know why and I am grateful for it.

So for me the question really is "does God command people to kill." And If so, why. I'm not being impertinent by asking and God knows it.

Really, I am not looking for man to confirm any answers for me. I just like to "study it out in my mind" before asking the Lord. He is the only one who I trust to give the right answer. And like I said, I have been getting a series of lessons instead of a "yes" or "no."

[Finrock]

I thank everyone for their helpful posts. I especially appreciate your words of kindness, Finrock. I'll try to send some of our lovely weather your way!

Thanks, I hope it gets here soon.

And like I said, I have been getting a series of lessons instead of a "yes" or "no."

The question "Does God command people to kill?" is an easy yes or no question. The answer is: Yes, sometimes God commands people to kill. Your questions as to "Why does God command people to kill?" is not as easy. It is hard, actually impossible, to answer "Why" with just yes or no. I think in an attempt to answer the "Why" part, there has been much discussion and "lessons", as you say. In asking a "Why" question, I hope you can see the reason you have been getting more than just yes or no answers.

I've had a testimony of the BoM since I was 14. I never did any deeper questioning than that and always believed things literally. That isn't where I'm at anymore. My spiritual journey (as guided by the Spirit and Light of Christ in me) has put me on a path to learn deeper things. I think I know why and I am grateful for it.

So for me the question really is "does God command people to kill." And If so, why. I'm not being impertinent by asking and God knows it.

Really, I am not looking for man to confirm any answers for me. I just like to "study it out in my mind" before asking the Lord. He is the only one who I trust to give the right answer.

That is wonderful! Thank you for sharing your testimony of the Book of Mormon. How you describe questioning, studying, and receiving an answer is what I believe is exactly how it should be! :)

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[Justice]

Joseph Smith said (paraphrase) whatever the Lord commands is right. He said in one instance the Lord may say Thou shalt not kill, and in another Thou shalt utterly destroy, and whatever He commands is right.

I think many people are confused about whether killing someone is right or wrong in the cases where God commands it. Here's how I look at it, or my understanding of it.

Killing someone is ALWAYS wrong. It is never the first option, and never what we seek to do. We should not "delight in bloodshed." However, there are times when taking someone's life is justified.

Sometimes, doing a wrong is justified if you are responding to a wrong that will remove your agency or your mortal life, or the life of one you are charged to protect. You better be 100% sure you are justified before you take someone's life. If someone broke into your home and is threatening you or your family, you better decide if that is justification now, before you are placed in that situation. I say you are justified, as long as your intention is to protect and defend, and you have considered other options that may be workable and have deemed that they will result in the risk of life to you or a loved one.

No doubt, when Laman asked for the plates, Laban wanted to know why he wanted them. It doesn't take inspiration or revelation to have a good idea of how that conversation might have continued.

This case is simple to me. Laban was going to send his servants to retrive the plates no matter what bargain or agreement he made with Lehi's sons. Laman all but told him where they were, and it was very possible, even probable, that Laban's servants would find them. The only way to be sure Lehi's family would be safe and keep the plates was to kill a man who was about to die shortly anyway. Plus, what a wonderful lesson it taught Nephi of the level of obedience that would be required of him.

Wasn't it Nephi that said, "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them?" The Lord was testing him, and showing him that it was true for all things, even for death.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Justice
Typos

[Snow]

I think many people are confused about whether killing someone is right or wrong in the cases where God commands it. Here's how I look at it, or my understanding of it.

I don't think anybody is confused about that. I've never heard of or met anyone who was.

There may be some that think God is a capricious and malicious god in which case what you say may be true that is not a common belief.

The real issue is whether or not one believes other people when they clam that God commanded them to murder.

[Snow]

Why God didn't do it Himself is a very different question than was God able to do it Himself.

I read your whole post - it was a lot of work. Franlkly I thought it was a rotten answer, it barely interacted with the crux of the issue - why God had Nephi murder Laban RATHER than some other solution.

1. One of your explanations was that murdering Laban would help Nephi learn to build a ship (by helping him to trust God). Oh please. Nephi had demonstrated that he was a faithful servant. There would be much better ways of increasing faith without killing. How about this - God could reveal his will to Nephi - which is just what he did.

2. Another explanation is that if not killed, Laban could of sent men after Nephi. How about this instead... God could have copied the plates and given them to Nephi, or forgotten about the plates. Joseph Smith translated easily without plates. Nephi could have done without the plates just as Joseph did, or God could have caused Laban to not want to order his men to follow Nephi, or caused the men to get drunk and lazy.

[pam]

So for me the question really is "does God command people to kill." And If so, why. I'm not being impertinent by asking and God knows it.

Really, I am not looking for man to confirm any answers for me. I just like to "study it out in my mind" before asking the Lord. He is the only one who I trust to give the right answer

.

There was an article in the Ensign by Elder F. Burton Howard that says this about Nephi killing Laban.

Some seek to justify their actions by quoting scripture. They often cite Nephi’s killing of Laban as an example of the need to violate a law to accomplish a greater good and to prevent a nation from dwindling in unbelief. But they forget that Nephi twice refused to follow the promptings of the Spirit. In the end, he agreed to break the commandment only when he was convinced that “the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes” (1 Ne. 4:13; italics added) and also (I believe) when he knew that the penalty for shedding blood had been lifted, in that one exceptional case, by Him whose right it is to fix and waive penalties.

[Finrock]

I read your whole post - it was a lot of work. Franlkly I thought it was a rotten answer, it barely interacted with the crux of the issue - why God had Nephi murder Laban RATHER than some other solution.

1. One of your explanations was that murdering Laban would help Nephi learn to build a ship (by helping him to trust God). Oh please. Nephi had demonstrated that he was a faithful servant. There would be much better ways of increasing faith without killing. How about this - God could reveal his will to Nephi - which is just what he did.

2. Another explanation is that if not killed, Laban could of sent men after Nephi. How about this instead... God could have copied the plates and given them to Nephi, or forgotten about the plates. Joseph Smith translated easily without plates. Nephi could have done without the plates just as Joseph did, or God could have caused Laban to not want to order his men to follow Nephi, or caused the men to get drunk and lazy.

Good Evening Snow! By-the-way, I never thanked you for your compliment a few posts ago. So, thanks! I'll go back and make sure to give you some kudos.

Based on your comments in this thread, it seems that this issue has been a difficult thing for you to reconcile. I'm not sure if your posts are in an attempt to resolve your concerns or if you are trying to provide an answer that you have arrived at. If you are still trying to resolve this for yourself, I want to say that I'm sorry that you have struggled with this part of the Book of Mormon for so long without a resolution. In this case I wish that I could help you more. If you haven't reconciled it yet, how do you think this apparent moral dilemma can be reconciled?

On the other hand, perhaps you've already reconciled this issue with yourself and are just trying to teach some truth. I'm sorry if this is the case and I've just missed your point. In that case, if you don't mind sharing with me, how do you, Snow, reconcile the account in 1 Nephi 4?

Kind Regards,

Finrock

P.S.

After looking back, I realized your compliment was from a different thread, not that that makes a any difference to my thanking you. =)

Edited April 23, 2009 by Finrock
Added PS

[Snow]

Good Evening Snow! By-the-way, I never thanked you for your compliment a few posts ago. So, thanks! I'll go back and make sure to give you some kudos.

Based on your comments in this thread, it seems that this issue has been a difficult thing for you to reconcile. I'm not sure if your posts are in an attempt to resolve your concerns or if you are trying to provide an answer that you have arrived at. If you are still trying to resolve this for yourself, I want to say that I'm sorry that you have struggled with this part of the Book of Mormon for so long without a resolution. In this case I wish that I could help you more. If you haven't reconciled it yet, how do you think this apparent moral dilemma can be reconciled?

On the other hand, perhaps you've already reconciled this issue with yourself and are just trying to teach some truth. I'm sorry if this is the case and I've just missed your point. In that case, if you don't mind sharing with me, how do you, Snow, reconcile the account in 1 Nephi 4?

Kind Regards,

Finrock

P.S.

After looking back, I realized your compliment was from a different thread, not that that makes a any difference to my thanking you. =)

I have kinda addressed this before but the Nephi issue is merely one minor example of the bigger problem in the OT where God command major atrocity including murder, stealing, slavery, kidnapping and rape and cruelty to animals. Since some of that atrocity is against innocents there is a real problem to reconcile. The Nephi account is not even a very good example of the problem because Laban probably justly deserved what he got.

Re the Nephi account: I do not have a testimony that Nephi killed Laban on orders from God neither does the account matter much to me in terms of my general testimony of the whole of the Book of Mormon.

Of more interest to me now is the lack of logic from people here who are trying to explain it.

[Finrock]

I have kinda addressed this before but the Nephi issue is merely one minor example of the bigger problem in the OT where God command major atrocity including murder, stealing, slavery, kidnapping and rape and cruelty to animals. Since some of that atrocity is against innocents there is a real problem to reconcile. The Nephi account is not even a very good example of the problem because Laban probably justly deserved what he got.

Re the Nephi account: I do not have a testimony that Nephi killed Laban on orders from God neither does the account matter much to me in terms of my general testimony of the whole of the Book of Mormon.

Of more interest to me now is the lack of logic from people here who are trying to explain it.

Good morning Snow! Thank you for the reply.

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me rephrase it and see if I got it right. I think you are saying that the account in 1 Nephi is really just one example of a bigger issue that you have with Old Testament stories of God commanding people to be killed, particularly people who you perceive to be innocent people. In your mind, God simply wouldn't do this and therefore you doubt that these accounts are actually true. Because you feel that God wouldn't do the things people are attributing to Him, you do not have a testimony of these parts of the scriptures. Further, despite these apparent contradictions of how you understand God to be and some of the accounts that you are reading in the scriptures, you still have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, minus the account in 1 Nephi 4. However, you aren't really trying to address your underlying concern at this point, more than you are simply amused at what you perceive to be unreasonble explanations of these apparent contradictions or atleast discrepencies in the scriptures.

Did I understand you correctly?

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[HiJolly]

I have kinda addressed this before but the Nephi issue is merely one minor example of the bigger problem in the OT where God command major atrocity including murder, stealing, slavery, kidnapping and rape and cruelty to animals. Since some of that atrocity is against innocents there is a real problem to reconcile. The Nephi account is not even a very good example of the problem because Laban probably justly deserved what he got.

Re the Nephi account: I do not have a testimony that Nephi killed Laban on orders from God neither does the account matter much to me in terms of my general testimony of the whole of the Book of Mormon.

In other words, you have a lot of trouble accepting the scriptures as they are. Ok.

Of more interest to me now is the lack of logic from people here who are trying to explain it.

Why? It's been pointed out to you that logic is ultimately not a useful tool in understanding God or His ways. And even WHY that is.

I loved the topic of 'logic' when I took philosophy classes in college. I even went on and took a class specifically in mathematical logic, using algebra (since I hadn't taken Calculus yet, I couldn't take that advanced math logic class), to my regret.

Logic is not an attribute of Godliness. It is not supported in scripture. It is not required for salvation, or exaltation. It, like science, has limited application due to the veil over our minds and senses. It's like using a pinewood Christmas soldier "Nutcracker" to crack Brazil nuts. Absolutely unsuited for the task.

So why place such importance on it, particularly on a religious message board? And why be so acerbic about it?

HiJolly

Edited April 23, 2009 by HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Snow, take a moment and read this article. It may provide some answer some your concern of Nephi slaying of Laban. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/pdf/jbms/792565429-1-1.pdf

[TruthSeekerToo]

Ok, I guess I'm just sucked in and can't get out of this thread.

I agree with Snow about all the OT cr@p. I didn't want to bring it up in this thread because I felt it was probably out of the scope of one thread. Oh, and Finrock, that was an excellent summary-speaking of my own feelings. It's amazing how you can respond with such compassion and understanding.

So, I don't have all the answers. I have some, but really don't want to share them if they are going to be mocked.

[Just_A_Guy]

Franlkly I thought it was a rotten answer, it barely interacted with the crux of the issue - why God had Nephi murder Laban RATHER than some other solution.

I'm probably going to catch heck for this, but maybe (as a philosophical exercise) we should ask ourselves why killing is inherently wrong? My thoughts so far:

• Because it ends a human life, and it is not for us to determine when the life of another human ends.

• Because the process inflicts physical pain, and it is always wrong to inflict pain on another living creature [if so, why? Is it even wrong if, ultimately, it leaves them better off in the eternal scheme of things?]

• Because the person who does the killing may come to enjoy the practice and repeat it under unwarranted circumstances.

• Because if everyone were killing each other all willy-nilly (and especially if they were claiming divine mandate), society would go to heck in a handbasket.

• Because God told us not to.

• [Please feel free to add to this list.]

The second question would be: If, in a particular case, each and every reason for the "wrongfulness" of murder can be mitigated--is the murder still wrong? Why?

These are hard questions, and I realize that some pretty abominable acts have been performed by false prophets who justify their actions with the same questions. But this is what we have to grapple with. Either Nephi and Moses were also false prophets, or we need to find some meaningful way to parse out their actions from those of Ervil LeBaron and Warren Jeffs.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[TruthSeekerToo]

Just a Guy-You need to also add that killing renders the killer spiritually dead.

Also, sin does not create a false prophet. False prophesies do.

I can just imagine the conversation in th C.K. between the babies who were killed and their killer.........akward! But I'll fully admit that is me looking at it with my natural eyes.

[Justice]

I read your whole post - it was a lot of work. Franlkly I thought it was a rotten answer, it barely interacted with the crux of the issue - why God had Nephi murder Laban RATHER than some other solution.

1. One of your explanations was that murdering Laban would help Nephi learn to build a ship (by helping him to trust God). Oh please. Nephi had demonstrated that he was a faithful servant. There would be much better ways of increasing faith without killing. How about this - God could reveal his will to Nephi - which is just what he did.

The word is obedience. Nephi had demonstrated that he was faithful with some things. The Lord wanted Nephi to see that he could be faithful in the hardest of things.

The harder of the reasons were that Nephi had never considered to take another man's life. He did not want to. It was the hardest thing God could have asked him to do.

Another was that Nephi would have to take the lives of his nephews in the future to protect his family and right to worship. He needed to be taught that whatever God commands is right. He needed to be prepared to take a life in defense of keeping God's commandments.

God my never ask you or I to do this. But, it was required of Nephi... this reasoning is perfectly clear to me.

2. Another explanation is that if not killed, Laban could of sent men after Nephi. How about this instead... God could have copied the plates and given them to Nephi, or forgotten about the plates. Joseph Smith translated easily without plates. Nephi could have done without the plates just as Joseph did, or God could have caused Laban to not want to order his men to follow Nephi, or caused the men to get drunk and lazy.

There are so many different things in the scriptures where we can second guess God. I think commanding the children of Israel to utterly destroy entire nations would be far more of an issue than Nephi killing one wicked man.

I think you didn't get the spirit of my post. What tells me this is that it was difficult for you to read. Normally, when our minds are closed and we are not looking for answers, other's views become difficult and monotonous. But, with an open mind, and a true curiosity about whether or not someone might have some insight, often we read earnestly, seeking to learn.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, or even that I have this one right. I'm just explaining how I understand it. But, I did quote a lot of scripture, and had you beed interested in learning, you might have re-quoted a verse and showed where you disagreed. If all you want to do is present ideas of how God may have handled the situation better, I suggest you pray and tell Him. I can't help you with that. I am doing the best I can to understand these commandments and actions with the understanding that "whatever God commands is right." If that is something you cannot do, then perhaps you should spend time talking to God about it.

I do believe though, that if you are to ever understand this, you have to open your mind at some point.

I can clearly see the difference between God commanding someone, in scripture, to slay a wicked man to bring about His purpose, and a man claiming to hear a voice at night that told him to kill someone, claiming it was God trying to justify himself. There is a very big difference to me.

When I have a hard time seeing why God did something, I try to make it a habit not to second guess Him, but to try to open my mind and educate myself as to how God might see it. I always assume that God knows the best way to accomplish something that will do the most good for the most people. And, I never assume that God's commandments may not be correct, and to look for better ways.

It is the very purpose of the Gospel for us to change our thoughts and ideas to align with God's. It doesn't mean we need to go kill someone. It means we need to open our minds and try to see it through God's eyes. And, when we can't, keep trying... don't just assume since we can't understand that God must be wrong.

I really wish you all the best, and the help of the Spirit to try to discern this, since it seems to be a stumbling block to you.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Justice