To all worthy male members...

[NeuroTypical]

I would answer something like this: So, LDS figure the priesthood is given by God for his own purposes, not for man's. The one and only single sole thing priesthood holders do, is bless the lives of others. No priesthood holder has ever put his hands on his own head and given himself a blessing - it's all about serving others as God's messenger.

So, my CofC friend, as you're also aware, we Mormons don't restrict service only to priesthood holders. "every member a missionary" - remember that one? We all serve, just in different capacities. Occasionally, we have someone who has decided that God should give him a certain job, and he gets ticked off when God has something else in mind for him. An example would be someone who has decided he needs to go on a mission, when something in or out of his control happens that prevents him from going. We remind ourselves that God has a hand in how we serve. He knows better than we what good we can accomplish, what harm would befall us, etc.

The OT has sufficient verses explaining how the priesthood was given only to certain people, and withheld from other people. We're not doing anything that didn't happen in the OT. What, you figure you know more than God how to structure his priesthood?

LM

[Justice]

Why is this question only to male members?

Sorry, Jim, I didn't mean to offend anyone. That's a good question and I should clarify.

I wasn't asking the question to only "worthy male members..."

That phrase is found in the official declaration that made the Priesthood available to all worthy male members. I forget sometimes that people of all faiths read this forum. I felt that title was descriptive of the topic while avoiding the race issue in the topic.

I would never disregard the advice, counsel, and wisdom of our female friends out there. :)

Also, I'd like to thank everyone who offered their answer(s) to my question. I've gotten a lot out of your comments.

[skippy740]

Sorry, Jim, I didn't mean to offend anyone. That's a good question and I should clarify.

I wasn't asking the question to only "worthy male members..."

That phrase is found in the official declaration that made the Priesthood available to all worthy male members. I forget sometimes that people of all faiths read this forum. I felt that title was descriptive of the topic while avoiding the race issue in the topic.

I would never disregard the advice, counsel, and wisdom of our female friends out there. :)

Also, I'd like to thank everyone who offered their answer(s) to my question. I've gotten a lot out of your comments.

Using "quotes" around the phrasing would help make that more clear in the future.

[Vort]

Your thinking of whom he did it with, i'm referring to the action itself.

In what sense is such sexual activity between married persons "fornication"? You may consider such a thing "impure" or "unholy", but I don't see how it can fit the definition of "fornication".

[WomenofCaliber]

Take a look at this website.....

Black LDS Mormons

Thanks for the website. I enjoyed reading what they had to say.

[Vort]

WomenOfCaliber, that lipstick will give you lead poisoning.

[hordak]

In what sense is such sexual activity between married persons "fornication"? You may consider such a thing "impure" or "unholy", but I don't see how it can fit the definition of "fornication".

I don't but...

Please also beware of unnatural sexual acts that are just as immoral, if not worse, than traditional fornication or adultery."

- Elder Bruce C. Hafen, “Your Longing for Family Joy,” Ensign, Oct. 2003,

But we have gone off course here. My point is the church has had policies in the past, such as no birth control, and no oral sex. that "fit in" perfectly with their time but are no longer policy as they no longer fit with the world view. I think these are opinions due of time and place of the men who gave them and not revelation.

Looking at the blacks and the Priesthood it fits the same mold. It is quite possible that BY was giving opinion when he said that blacks couldn't have the priesthood in the same way that it is generally recognized that his reasoning they couldn't have it, blacks were "fence sitters" is see as opinion.

[Jim108]

OK, at first I did not think myself qualified to answer this thread as I am not a member of the LDS, but then I rethought my position. Regardless of what your religion is, racial discrimination is never justified. The LDS religion as well as most religions are guilty. I would tell your friend that the LDS religion was wrong, discovered the wrong doing, repented and changed. Religion is man made and has all the flaws of men. Men are wretched. This is why I believe the way I do. Put your faith in Jesus. I can guarantee you this. You will never be let down when your faith is with Him. Jim

[Madriglace]

I think part of the problem was the African countries themselves. I know that in the beginning the missionaries were allowed into South Africa on the stipulation that they were not allowed to teach the black population.

I work in the temple with a sister who has filled 2 missions in Nigeria with her husband. The gospel is on fire there. these people are ready and eager. This sister said that during their first 18 month mission 3000 people we baptized in their area. The missionaries go out to a referral and it isn't just one person or one family it is an entire neighborhood or town to teach. I remember once hearing a black brother speak before he could hold the priesthood and he said something to the effect that he had faith in the Lord and that when the time came he would be ready to hold and magnify his priesthood unlike many who could hold it at any time were doing.

Working at the clothing desk we see alot of people come through the temple .. many who are there for the first time but the black brother who came through last month during my shift will always stand out ... he was absolutely glowing. He was so happy and so excited to be where he was that it shown from every part of him ....

The Lord knows why He withheld the priesthood .... and it is no longer an issue for anyone.

[skippy740]

Jim108,

That is a Classic perception from someone who is outside the LDS faith.

[Islander]

OK, at first I did not think myself qualified to answer this thread as I am not a member of the LDS, but then I rethought my position. Regardless of what your religion is, racial discrimination is never justified. The LDS religion as well as most religions are guilty. I would tell your friend that the LDS religion was wrong, discovered the wrong doing, repented and changed. Religion is man made and has all the flaws of men. Men are wretched. This is why I believe the way I do. Put your faith in Jesus. I can guarantee you this. You will never be let down when your faith is with Him. Jim

With all due respect and with no intent or desire for contention, you are sorely mistaken and as you are not a member of the church you are ill equipped to discuss this issue with any meaninful insight.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but in this case it does not amount to much.

[Dravin]

Regardless of what your religion is, racial discrimination is never justified.

I'd like to point out that Christianity was limited to the Jews by the express command of the Savior initially (Matt 10:5). The priesthood was limited to the Levites initially, even if you were of the covenant people you had to have the right ancestors to hold the priesthood.

Ultimately as LDS we don't know why God told certain prophets who wanted to extend the priesthood to everyone were told no by God but I'm fairly certain God was justified in his response and his reasoning (What ever the latter may have been). Even if it was just a written divorcement type reason (hearts to hard for what he really wanted) or something else entirely. Heck for all we know the withholding was in exchange for greater blessing yet to come.

Ultimately we don't know why blacks were denied the priesthood before 1978 other than God said, not yet. I for one am not going to tell God he wasn't justified in his decisions. Now obviously this isn't the case as far as you are concerned, but you said never which means even if this was the case you don't think it justified.

[Jim108]

Are you guys defending racial discrimination. I am sorry, but this is not a LDS specific subject. All, and I say all religions who practice or have practiced racial discrimination are in the wrong. You can not defend it ever! Your religion is no different than most religions. Most religions have dirty laundry. Are any of you willing to stand up and be counted as saying this practice was wrong. Well.....anyone......anyone. OK, man is wretched, man creates religion, religion is wretched. Believe in Jesus. You will never go wrong when you believe in Him. Jim

[Faded]

We took very different paths. He spent a total of 15 years as a minister for a branch of the Church of Christ. His duties took him to various countries in Europe and Africa, where he lived and organized churches.

"The Church of Christ" was/is the name of a long list of denominations including our own. I'm curious to check on their own history as it relates to racism in general. It greatly depends upon which "Church of Christ" he is a minister for.

One of the things that I find quite interesting is that virtually every other Traditional Christian Church is being completely hypocritical in their accusations of "racism". Most of them have a TON of very real and very definite racist histories, yet nobody every brings that up. Case in point, the Southern Baptist Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Southern Baptist Church) was created by Baptists living in the Southern States. Why? "Many Baptist preachers even wanted to preserve the rights of ministers themselves to be slaveholders." They actively preached that slavery was Biblical, that God had pronounced the destiny of slavery upon all black people, and that it was immoral for them to be otherwise. After the Civil War, they actively excluded blacks from their congregations and continued their "unofficial" support of unequal rights for blacks. The Southern Baptist Church did not publicly acknowledge and apologize for their racist history until 1995. Most Protestant religions that existed in the South during the practice of slavery have less documented histories that follow along the same lines. Pro-slavery and pro-racism messages were preached from their pulpits and they declared slavery to be the will of God.

Catholicism brings an ironic twist to the discussion. The Popes definitivly denounced the practice, but their Church members in Latin America completely disregarded the Pope. Some Popes were strong in denouncing slavery. Some were quite passive and even accepted the practice. None every taught in favor of the practice. There is some controversy about that, stating that some Popes actually did teach in favor of the practice, but that has not been conclusively proven. But here is the main point: Catholicism's history of slavery and racism involved FAR more slaves and a MUCH longer span of time. Brazil alone imported and held about 10 times as many black slaves as the entire USA.

Then there is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. One of the biggest reasons the Mormons were driven out of Missouri was because A LOT of Mormons were Abolitionists. Essentially, we were driven out of Missouri largely because we weren't racist enough. The LDS Church really has no history of practicing slavery -- something that VERY FEW Christian religions in the USA can claim. Black men could always join our Church, but could not hold the Priesthood. That was all the discrimination there was. Some members and General Authorities did a lot of theorizing about the matter -- and I think most of that was because of an overwhelming need to understand why. None of those theories were ever the official teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Some members took them as fact and there was some not too well thought out opinions on the part of many Church members as a result. What has the official teaching of the Church been about why blacks were denied the Priesthood? It has something to do with the curse pronounced upon Cain. Only God knows why the priesthood was withheld until 1978. It's a moot point because it's been 31 years since blacks were denied the Priesthood.

When compared with the sins of other denominations on the matter, I am absolutely stunned that ONLY the LDS Church is thrown under the microscope and picked appart and accused of being racist. The expression that comes to mind: "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

Edited April 10, 2009 by Faded

[skippy740]

Are you guys defending racial discrimination. I am sorry, but this is not a LDS specific subject. All, and I say all religions who practice or have practiced racial discrimination are in the wrong. You can not defend it ever! Your religion is no different than most religions. Most religions have dirty laundry. Are any of you willing to stand up and be counted as saying this practice was wrong. Well.....anyone......anyone. OK, man is wretched, man creates religion, religion is wretched. Believe in Jesus. You will never go wrong when you believe in Him. Jim

Jim,

Please become a student of the scriptures that you hold.

I'd like to point out that Christianity was limited to the Jews by the express command of the Savior initially (Matt 10:5). The priesthood was limited to the Levites initially, even if you were of the covenant people you had to have the right ancestors to hold the priesthood.

The Lord is no "respector of persons", but these are the versus shown above.

What is YOUR interpretation of these scriptures found in your bible?

Are you saying that the Lord was wrong? BTW, if the Lord was wrong... then he sinned. You and I both know that the Lord was sinnless - or else the Ultimate Sacrifice would not be accepted by the Father.

I will NOT say that we know WHY He does everything that He does. In this sense, I agree with you - Follow the Lord and you will be fine.

Understanding the Lord and all His reasons behind everything? We won't know it all until the next life.

Edited April 10, 2009 by skippy740

[Dravin]

Are you guys defending racial discrimination.

Are you telling God he isn't justified in his decisions?

All, and I say all religions who practice or have practiced racial discrimination are in the wrong.

See my above comment about the Gospel only going to the Jews to begin with, at the Saviors command. If you truly believe such you don't believe Christ was justified and you believe his religion is wrong.

Your religion is no different than most religions.

Actually it is, not that you believe it but that doesn't change the reality.

Believe in Jesus. You will never go wrong when you believe in Him. Jim

Except apparently if you are an Apostle and he tells you to only preach to the Jews apparently. Or you he is in his premortal state and he limit the priesthood to not just one race (the Jews) but to one family line in that race.

[Vort]

Are you guys defending racial discrimination.

We are defending divine practice. God chose the Hebrews to have his covenant, not the Celts or the Australian aborigines or the Gauls or whoever. Does that mean that God "discriminates"? If so, then yes, God's racial discrimination is perfectly defensible.

The ban on males of African descent holding the Priesthood was validated by God, and was done away with by God through revelation. We're happy it no longer applies, and we don't know why it used to apply, but we are not going to sit idly by while someone who hasn't even made the covenant we're under bad-mouths the practices of the kingdom of God, past or present.

I don't expect you to believe me; if you did, you would join the LDS Church. But by the same token, don't expect us to agree with your claim of "racial discrimination". It's bogus.

I am sorry

Apology accepted.

All, and I say all religions who practice or have practiced racial discrimination are in the wrong.

Jesus himself very openly practiced racial discrimination, refusing to have almost anything to do with those who were not Jews except in very specific circumstances. Are you saying that the Lord was in the wrong?

You can not defend it ever!

I just did. How do you respond to my example?

Your religion is no different than most religions.

You are mistaken. Our "religon" is led by Jesus Christ himself.

Are any of you willing to stand up and be counted as saying this practice was wrong. Well.....anyone......anyone.

First, let's hear you condemn Jesus Christ for having been so blatantly "racist" in his treatment of non-Jews.

OK, man is wretched,

I have asked you several times about your meaning behind this. Why won't you answer me?

man creates religion,

Not the LDS religion.

[Jim108]

I love you all, but I am crying. How do you not see what I see. Jesus loves all man past present and future equally. How do you debate man when his eyes are shut. I will pray for all of you. Jim

[Islander]

This would be funny if it was not so annoying...Jim, you have come to preach to the choroid.

Pal, there are people in this forum (members of the Church and non-members) that have been studying the scriptures longer than you, with a witness of the Savior that would take you a lifetime to acquire and folks that know history by an order of magnitude more than you. You are entitled to your opinion but when you try to offer it as fact you are walking on quick sand.

Not everything is offered or available to ALL people at all times. Out of the billion humans living on the earth on 33 AD, only 2 million knew about the one TRUE God. The rest died without any knowledge of such, they were prohibited from worshiping in the Temple even if they would have made it to Jerusalem. Last night 20,000 people died without knowing that Jesus is Lord and Savior of mankind. Today, 2 billion people have NEVER heard the name of Jesus Christ. Your generalizations apply to any other Church you like, but not the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints for He directs its affairs and guides by revelation thru His prophet and those are the facts whether you agree with them or not.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Mat 7:6

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to adogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table." Mat 15:22-27

Yes, pray, pray my brother that the Spirit may reveal to you the truth, that you may seek to know the things of God as revealed by Him and not by the opinions of men and the wisdom of men.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Islander

[Jim108]

This would be funny if it was not so annoying...Jim, you have come to preach to the choroid.

Pal, there are people in this forum (members of the Church and non-members) that have been studying the scriptures longer than you, with a witness of the Savior that would take you a lifetime to acquire and folks that know history by an order of magnitude more than you. You are entitled to your opinion but when you try to offer it as fact you are walking on quick sand.

You are holding up racial discrimination and defending it. I don't need to be better at scripture to know you are wrong. Jesus is Love. ...and this thread is everything but. Your positions are just wrong. It is not like Jesus to discriminate. Many religions are guilty of things in their past. The LDS religion is of no acception. I just cant believe none of you will admit to it. If you stand by LDS history than you are saying that before the revelation a white LDS member was better than a black member simply because of the color of his skin. This does not stand....ever. Jim

[Vort]

Your positions are just wrong.

Somehow, I'm not convinced.

It is not like Jesus to discriminate.

Yet I believe I demonstrated that, in point of fact, it was VERY MUCH LIKE JESUS to discriminate. And I mean racial discrimination. Please respond to this point, Jim.

Many religions are guilty of things in their past. The LDS religion is of no acception. I just cant believe none of you will admit to it.

If I spoke unkindly to my spouse, would you expect me to admit to robbing a bank? The fact that LDS members aren't perfect doesn't mean we will admit to false charges.

If you stand by LDS history than you are saying that before the revelation a white LDS member was better than a black member simply because of the color of his skin.

We are saying no such thing. Rather, we are saying that before 1978, men of African descent were prohibited by God from holding his Priesthood. Nothing there about "better".

[RachelleDrew]

Jim, learn how to read. Thanks.

You are completely misinterpreting everything that is being posted here, then ignoring other facts that are being brought up.

No one that you are talking with in this thread is a racist, that much I can promise you. You are simply misunderstanding what they are saying.

EVERY CHURCH IN THE WORLD has practiced discrimination of some kind, including modern day trinitarian Christianity (which you are obviously a part of). What we are saying is we don't know WHY the church practiced it, we just know that it did happen and it has since been corrected.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[skippy740]

I do not understand why people come to a website that is open to everyone but is specific to one philosophy and seeks to ridicule and demean them - EVEN THOUGH you say you do it "in love"?

Jim108, you are on my ignore list as you seem to violate the spirit of what this forum should be about.

Just like in my professional life, I don't mind QUESTIONS. I just hate QUESTIONING.

The difference is seeking to understand a point of view while trying to keep an open mind. The other is simply asking questions to get a "rise" out of the other person.

[RachelleDrew]

I do not understand why people come to a website that is open to everyone but is specific to one philosophy and seeks to ridicule and demean them - EVEN THOUGH you say you do it "in love"?

Jim108, you are on my ignore list as you seem to violate the spirit of what this forum should be about.

That is because Jim is a troll, can we just ban this moron already?

[Islander]

You are holding up racial discrimination and defending it. I don't need to be better at scripture to know you are wrong. Jesus is Love. ...and this thread is everything but. Your positions are just wrong. It is not like Jesus to discriminate. Many religions are guilty of things in their past. The LDS religion is of no acception. I just cant believe none of you will admit to it. If you stand by LDS history than you are saying that before the revelation a white LDS member was better than a black member simply because of the color of his skin. This does not stand....ever. Jim

Do you notice that people have asked you to respond to a number of questions and offered you scriptures for you to comment and you just refused to do so? I would agree that it is racism if you also agree then that the Savior was racist because He discriminated against Samaritans and others.

Your statement denotes gross ignorance of the facts as demonstrated by LDS history. Beyond that, what you share is just your opinion. If all you have to offer in the exchange is your opinion then I guess we should agree to disagree.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Islander