Suicide

[Nothing]

Hey you all, I am new here. So I have been a bit suicidal lately. Don't freak out - I am not Twittering during an actually suicide attempt. There is no imminent danger here.

Why do some people have suicidal thoughts? Don't most people fight like crazy to prolong their life as long as possible? I have struggled with suicidal urges for about 14 years. I don't know what to do.

EDIT!: I would like to focus on suicide in general. I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but I don't need any more suggestions (therapy, drugs). I did write "I don't know what to do" so it's totally understandable the topic went that direction.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Nothing

[countrygirl66]

hi and welcome

I would ask if ok if you have had counciling for your thoughts. Is it because you think you can't go on or you think the world would be better without you? I have had thoughts like that at different times in my life. What has helped me is first talk to someone i trust. For me it is a sister. Second if you can a therapist may be needed to see if you need anti depressants. Third don't isolate yourself, (it is what i usually want to do) but go to lunch with friends, visit your aunts and uncles, call your parents. fourth make your bishop aware of your struggle that way he can work to ensure you don't fall through the cracks. Bishops have a heavy load and sometimes if we don't tell them what is going on they can't help us. fifth find somewhere to serve. One of my nieces was suicidal for a long time (she was a recovering meth addict) and she says what saved her was voulenteering at the school, she felt that she couldn't not be there for the kids and she didn't want them to have to know that she had commited suicide. (the good news is this can and will get better) take care and keep posting. There are a lot of people here smarter than me that can help you.:)

[Nothing]

Hey countrygirl, thanks for your post. I have posted suicide topics on other forums before (it's been a long time, though) and people generally say things like "shut up and get over it you attention whore." Anyway, it helps me to hear what others have to say.

I sometimes feel like I can't go on and that I am totally a failure. The only reason I am still alive is I have a wife and kids.

I have seen family doctors, nurse practitioners, clinical psychologists, and phychiatrists and have tried a bunch of medications. I have been on Effexor XR for about 5 years but it doesn't seem to be doing much. I tried to quit but it's like heroin.

I also isolate myself by not talking to anyone about it. I don't talk to my wife but I do play with my kids. They are just so beautiful and innocent and I can somehow be happy around them.

I should totally visit other people and invite old friends over.

[NeuroTypical]

Did the shrinks give you any thought-pattern or behavior modification stuff to work on? If yes, how's that working out for you? If no, I suggest you try again with a shrink who know something about cognitive behavior therapy.

[Elphaba]

Hey you all, I am knew here. So I have been a bit suicidal lately. Don't freak out - I am not Twittering during an actually suicide attempt. There is no imminent danger here.

Why do some people have suicidal thoughts? Don't most people fight like crazy to prolong their life as long as possible? I have struggled with suicidal urges for about 14 years. I don't know what to do.

I was extremely suicidal for about seven years. Death hovered over me, and the physical pressure was almost as bad as the emotional pressure. I had made a few attempts that I thought were serious at the time, but they weren't. Then the day came when it was serious.

I don't really know what happened, how I was found, etc., and I don't want to know. I do remember waking up one day and being in an ICU. Apparently I was there for four days.

What I remember most vividly is being transferred to the psych ward, taking off my clothes to take a shower, and my knees literally buckling when I saw this huge purple, black, green, blue, yellow bruise on my chest. I still have no idea why it was there, and again I don't want to know.

But that's when it hit me--I had almost destroyed ME, and I didn't deserve that. I was a wonderful human being, and what I had done was so . . . wrong. Wrong in every sense and every level of wrong there is. It was extremely traumatizing to realize what I had done, which added another layer to the trauma I was already in. But I did have that epiphany, and I have always known since then that I will never, ever, do that again.

It has not been easy at all since then. The situational reasons I did it did not disappear, and were, and are, extremely burdersome sometimes, though nothing like it was then.

I also discovered afterward that I did not have severe depression like everyone had thought for decades, but severe anxiety disorders--many of them. That was difficult to treat, and still is.

I've also had that sense of death a few times since then, but I never, ever, entertain it.

People always talk about how selfish suicide is. It is not. It is borne out of horrible psychic pain, or horrible physical pain, or both. It is the only way many of us can figure out to end that pain. This pain is so bad, it is like being in a cloud of desperation, and you simply cannot see the magnitude of the repercussions if you do kill yourself.

It's funny, because I haven't thought about that day for a very long time, but I did this morning. I realized how much clearer my head is today, and how I am able to understand what happened, and the horrible aftermath, more clearly than I ever have.

I was thinking about the people in my life who have committed suicide, including my father and a very close friend who I had lost touch with. Having been at that very moment of such profound despondency, it's hard for me to even think about what that moment was like for them.

I really don't have any good advice, because I know how impossible it was for anyone to reach me in that state, and it may be for you as well. I agree you probably need a meds adjustment, and if Effexor is like heroin to you, something is wrong, because that's not how it works. I'm not saying it doesn't make you feel that way you describe, just that it's not completely because of the Effexor. Something else is going on.

I also know how completely beyond frustrating it is to get good psychiatric help-- I didn't for thirty-plus years. So many professionals sincerely want to help, but these things are so tricky, and they're not mind readers. (It took me a long time to be that understanding of them.)

Even now, writing about what I did, scares me badly, as if I'm in that place again. People didn't believe me afterwards that I would never, ever do that again, but they do now. I wish you could feel the same, and I hope this helps, though I know it may be for just a moment.

Good luck.

Elphaba

Edited April 16, 2009 by Elphaba

[TruthSeekerToo]

I'm sorry you have struggled with this so long!

I had a hard time last summer with bad thoughts. I'm pretty sure it was post partum depression. What was so bad was sleep deprivation and a high needs baby. So, I am lucky that my bad thoughts have completely gone away with more sleep!!!

There is no single answer for why these thoughts plague some people. For some it is chemical and others situational.

Plus, we all have different things that work for us that won't work for everyone. It can be frustrating.

Countrygirl makes a great point about isolation. And you can even see that you have that problem. I would encourage you to force yourself to talk to your wife or trusted friend or bishop.

You could also look into alternative healthcare treatments. They can work wonders for some.

Make sure you are getting enough sleep and eating healthy. Sounds silly, but it helps me.

Don't be afraid to call out to God to help. I mean really cry out to Him, let Him know your anguish. You can be comforted and delivered in times of need.

I almost forgot, sunshine, fresh air and exercise! So many people never connect with nature anymore. Go outside and take a walk. I know it is the last thing you want to do when depressed, but do it anyway. It will feel good to get out of your head and into your body.

What is this failure you are feeling? Maybe by understanding your feeling and needs you can change it. Remeber that Jesus Christ atoned for all our sins and sorrows. We just have to grab hold of it (easier said than done).

I think a lot more people struggle with this than we realize because we rarely talk about it.

[Nothing]

Elphaba, I totally saw Wicked in London a couple years and it was awesome. Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate your comments about suicide not being selfish. Sometimes it could be a selfish thing but it's probably the extreme pains thats causes it most of the time.

I mean that Effexor is like heroin only in that it is hard to quit due to do withdrawal sickness - it doesn't get me high or anything like that. The withdrawals are crazy. See this:

Effexor Withdrawal --Doctors Lounge

[Nothing]

Loudmouth, I have learned quite a bit about congnitive therapy and it has helped some. I read "Feeling Good" about cognitive therapy.

I appreciate your ideas, TruthSeekerToo.

You all have good thoughts, but I would like this discussion to move away from me and toward ideas about suicide in general. Why do some people have suicidal thoughts? Don't most people fight like crazy to prolong their life as long as possible? What doctrine do we have regarding this?

On my mission I talked to a few people who told me that suicide is an unforgivable sin. What a bunch of crap! We also hear about the miserable afterlife state of those who commit suicide. What do you all think of that?

[TruthSeekerToo]

Well, I think people who struggle with suicidal thoughts are already miserable! It is a miserable feeling.

Who wants us to be miserable?

Satan

I really think that some people have these thoughts because of chemical imbalances and others it is more situational. I think we can also see there could be a genetic component as well.

[bytebear]

If you really feel like you cannot control your feelings, i would look at an in patient situation, where you can get evaluated, treated and understood with someone looking over you. Sometimes it does take the right combination of medications and therepy, and it may take time to figure out what works best for you, and it may even change over time. So, take advantage of the doctors who specialize in these issues and get yourself to a place where you enjoy life again. I think I can safely say that we all will be praying for you.

[prospectmom]

I have always been depressed ... always fighting it..... Ihave good times and bad.. medication worked some than not but through it all as much as I wanted my pain and misery to end I wouldn't kill myself.. I would rather suffer a thousand years than face God .......... I have more better days than bad but winter is almost over... What helps me is giving of my time to others, I help teach music at school, I manage fundraisers.... I dance... I get my hands dirty.. ( gardening) and I breath....

[Nothing]

prospectmom, it's good that winter is about over (maybe). Winter is horrible. Depression can be a thorn in the flesh that God will not take away. It serves no purpose. I don't believe it makes me more understanding or compassionate (unless I'm more compassionate toward other depressed people, but what's the point of that?) and there is no purpose to it. Is depression meant to keep people humble? Are some people so wicked that they need to be stricken with it?

[prospectmom]

Depression is not a punisment and I suffer so much from it but know through my prayers and blessings I have recieved something will come out of it positive and wonderful... when??? I don't know... Never give in foe me it is a battle and I refuse to loose .... I can't say I do well daily but I try everyday..... I do fine at work abut at home I drop..... My mind won't stop sometimes and I know it is hard but know Father in Heaven loves us the same and we are not being punished..... Mabey you are so special that satan is trying extra hard for you not to do what you were sent here for....... Re-read Feeling Good .. use tht tools and breath that alone helps me some.....:)

[TruthSeekerToo]

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Sounds like weakness is a blessing so that we will be humble and come unto Jesus.

There are other scriptures that also indicate that weaknesses become strengths or make us strong.

[cofchristcousin]

I don't believe depression has a purpose or is a punishment or is intended as lesson-teacher. In my thinking, it's when brain chemistry, and your life struggles cascade downward, each thing taking you a little lower. It takes meds, learning how to block defeating thoughts, coping strategies, and time and more time for your brain to heal and experience joy again. I think creating a support system of trusted friends and professionals helps you cope and find a balances place again.

[Finrock]

prospectmom, it's good that winter is about over (maybe). Winter is horrible. Depression can be a thorn in the flesh that God will not take away. It serves no purpose. I don't believe it makes me more understanding or compassionate (unless I'm more compassionate toward other depressed people, but what's the point of that?) and there is no purpose to it. Is depression meant to keep people humble? Are some people so wicked that they need to be stricken with it?

Greetings Nothing! I'm glad to meet you online. I go by Finrock here on this forum. I don't post much, although I've been posting a bit more than usually here lately. I'm a Mormon, I'm married, and I have 4 children. I have a 5th one on the way. My wife is due in September. It's a girl so we will now have 2 boys and 3 girls. The girls now have the majority vote in the family, although I've heard that in some places the patriarch of the family counts as 4 votes, but this condition doesn't seem to fly in my household.

I'm no expert and I don't even really know what I'm talking about most of the time. However, I can share with you my opinions on why people have suicidal thoughts and perhaps share some insight that I've gleaned on why God allows us to suffer through trials, in general, including depression and other such illnesses.

From the little I understand, suicidal thoughts can stem from sin or from an actual chemical imbalance or other psychological disorder. I'll share my thoughts on both points. Please realize that I am speaking in generalities, as you requested, and none of my points are targeted at you nor do I even pretend to know the cause of your depression and suicidal thoughts.

One truth the Book of Mormon makes clear is that "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10). Therefore, one cannot commit sin and find true, lasting peace, joy, or happiness. As a person continues to commit sin and separate themselves further and further from God and his light, they often begin to feel very poorly about themselves, whether they admit it or not. There is no love or respect for themselves, causing them to feel that they are worthless, inadequate, and hopeless. These thoughts can lead to suicidal thoughts and suicide. Sin depresses our spirits and leads us to misery. It is easy to see why a person heaped in sin would want to escape their condition. This type of suicide is not good and actually the person would be better off to stay alive so that they can have time to repent.

Another reason for suicidal thoughts is caused by an actual illness. Bipolar disorder, for one, is a chemical imbalance that induces wide mood and emotional swings. Either intense happiness or irritability at one spectrum or deep, dark depression on the other. When people with bipolar disease are having an episode of depression, they can be suicidal or even homicidal. There are, of course, other illnesses and conditions, that can induce depression and suicidal thoughts. These types of suicides, if they occur, probably aren't the fault of those committing them. A disease, like bipolar, is not something that a person can just "will" to be gone. It is a condition that needs to be treated. There is a great quote from Elder Bruce R. McConkie on this subject: "Suicide consists in the voluntary and intentional taking of one’s own life, particularly where the person involved is accountable and has a sound mind. … Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives. It should also be remembered that judgment is the Lord’s; he knows the thoughts, intents, and abilities of men; and he in his infinite wisdom will make all things right in due course" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 771).

It is not for us to judge those who have committed suicide. God will take in to account all of the circumstance leading up to that event and He will judge righteously.

Now, on the question of why does God allow depression to exist. I do not know specifically why depression is allowed. I do not think anybody will be able to answer that question. However, there is an answer as to why we have weaknesses and why we are given trials. First, it is helpful to know that, "[t]here hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Cor. 10:13). In the scripture, God has given us many words of comfort that help us to understand some of the horrible tragedy and trials that we must often bear. He has stated that He has given us weaknesses so that we can be humble. But, God has also promised that His grace is sufficient for us to overcome our weaknesses as we humble ourselves. In doing so, God promises to make our weak things become our strengths (Ether 12:27). The atonement of Jesus Christ also makes it possible for us to find relief. In the allegory of the Vineyard we learn that God has specifically placed us in to those parts of the vineyard where we reside. Thinking to counsel the Master of the vineyard, the servant of the Lord asked why a tree was planted in the poorest spot of the vineyard. In reply, the Lord of the vineyard responded, "Counsel me not; I knew that it was a poor spot of ground; wherefore, I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit" (Jacob 5:21). God knows our conditions and He will provide the nourishment we need so that we prosper and be happy. Furthermore, Jesus has gone below all things and suffered all things so that he can succor us. The trials we have, can be overcome through faith, through righteous living, and quite often we will need the help and prayers of others, including doctors and therapist if necessary. In the end, the trials will be for our strength and for our good, just as Jesus Christ promised Joseph Smith in his darkest moments:

"5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false rethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea; 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb; 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he" (D&C 122)?

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[eponabri]

I take Effexor too, so I know what you mean. Do you get the brain zaps if you don't take it in time? That's what drives me nuts. But I know life is much worse for me if I don't take the meds.

My daughter was bipolar and often talked about suicide... depending on her mood swings she was either totally against it or ready to do it. We found that talking about death and life and God and everything helped her tremendously. However, when she died, my first worry was that she had taken her life. But that was ruled out by both the medical examiner and coroner.

I have had clinical depression since I was 19 and at the time I wondered if suicide was the answer. For me it was not. I don't condemn those who have, because I didn't walk a mile in their shoes, so I would never want to judge them.

Elphaba, I totally saw Wicked in London a couple years and it was awesome. Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate your comments about suicide not being selfish. Sometimes it could be a selfish thing but it's probably the extreme pains thats causes it most of the time.

I mean that Effexor is like heroin only in that it is hard to quit due to do withdrawal sickness - it doesn't get me high or anything like that. The withdrawals are crazy. See this:

Effexor Withdrawal --Doctors Lounge

[Hemidakota]

Hey you all, I am knew here. So I have been a bit suicidal lately. Don't freak out - I am not Twittering during an actually suicide attempt. There is no imminent danger here.

Why do some people have suicidal thoughts? Don't most people fight like crazy to prolong their life as long as possible? I have struggled with suicidal urges for about 14 years. I don't know what to do.

EDIT!: I would like to focus on suicide in general. I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but I don't need any more suggestions (therapy, drugs). I did write "I don't know what to do" so it's totally understandable the topic went that direction.

When we allow festering thoughts to remain, eventually we will act on it. Whether it be the intelligences within or those of the minions who were casted out, we still cannot allow it to be a constant in our thoughts.

[cjmaldrich]

I don't know what causes suicidal thoughts... But other people seem to have good ideas.

My wife is thoroughly convinced that you can't die from suicide and enter into the Celestial Kingdom because her Seminary teacher said so... I don't know how or why we would get on that subject, but now we just don't talk about it anymore

Personally, I find it hard to imagine God as a loving, forgiving, and accepting Father while turning away from a child of His who needs love, forgiveness, and acceptance more than anyone. Did not Christ take upon him the sufferings of all people? Yet even people with that assurance and knowledge still kill themselves. What unimaginable pain they must be experiencing if they cannot even find comfort in the Lord! I imagine those folks get to the next phase of life greeted with more hugs and love and caring people and understanding and REST than any of us could begin to imagine for ourselves at the end of our mortal journeys.

From LDS.org:

Suicide

Although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said:

"Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

"When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth" ("Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not," Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

Of course I'm not condoning suicide with this post... I'm just saying that those who do it probably aren't damned to eternal suffering according to the gospel of cjmaldrich

[Hemidakota]

Heavenly Father still loves HIS children and are placed where they shall be filled with joy but again, laws are laws and simply put, HE enforces them. It is not hard to understand the requirements of what constitutes a suicide and whether or not they are allowed into the Celestial realm.

[cjmaldrich]

What are the criteria then? What I'm seeing as official church doctrine (or at the very least, the official stance of the church published on their official website) is not what I feel you are saying will be the case...

A fair God would not look simply at the fact that a person took their own life, say that's against the rules, and condemn them. If that were the case, I would also expect him to condemn the Nephites who killed thousands and thousands of Lamanites and heaped their bodies upon the earth or cast them into the sea. But we know that likely won't be the case, because the Nephite's weren't acting in wickedness when they killed all of those people.

I think it would be very difficult to look at every single suicide and NOT see someone who, whether by their own fault or just having a defective brain, was at the end of their rope (no pun intended) and could see no other option for escaping their torment. Sure, there are people who do it to get out of legal or financial trouble with every intention of simply escaping responsibility; but I would guess they are probably the exception rather than the rule...

I see my opinion reflected in the published stance of the LDS Church.

[NeuroTypical]

Winter is horrible. Depression can be a thorn in the flesh that God will not take away.

Have you looked into Seasonal Affective Disorder? Current thinking is that "winter blues" (in your case - horribly extreme winter blues) are a function of the amount of full-spectrum sunlight that hits our skin and eyes.

My wife tells me that spending 5-10 minutes in front of a light box in the morning has worked wonders with her when the days are short and the nights are long.

[Nothing]

Finrock, you spelled it out very well! You and TruthSeekerToo talked about weaknesses being blessings. It seems that it would need to be a weakness that can be overcome to be a blessing at all. Let’s say I am a bit arrogant and proud. By humbling myself and overcoming that weakness, I would be stronger. Maybe that’s not a good example. What are examples of weaknesses that can make us strong?

But depression simply can’t be beat sometimes. Maybe some people are humbled by it. I have been before, but I am more bitter now. It’s been going on for 14 flippin years! I have completed one year of school. I went back to school a couple years ago and failed out of all three classes because I couldn’t hack it. I am emotionally killing my wife and I’m sure not she can cope with my moods much longer. This is not and will never be a weakness that can make me strong.

[Nothing]

Hemidakota, Elders McConkie and Ballard basically said we don't know all the circumstances surrounding a suicide and we don't know how people will be judged.

Loudmouth, I totally have the SAD business going on. The lamps that are really effective are hundreds of dollars I think.

[NeuroTypical]

The lamps that are really effective are hundreds of dollars I think.

My wife has this one - $170, and it will last for years.

Here's a smaller LED one, might have to put it closer to your face - $60.

Here are tons of valid results from the Google search "build your own SAD light box" You just have to make sure you're getting full-spectrum light, so the bulbs or LED's are more expensive than regular ones.

LM