Difference between Telestial and Terrestrial

[bytor2112]

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There is also "tons" of evidence for karma/ reincarnation/virgins given to men in the afterlife for being suicide terrorists.... IF you choose to believe in those particuclar revelations.

Tons.... does not cut it. If I must turn the Bible into a fairy tale in order to buy the LDS view.... I'll not do it. It should be the reverse, because the Bible has proven itself (via fulfilled prophecies). I do not believe in a God who doubletalks... the LDS view in essence is saying that one plus one equals two and also three or more. Sorry... I'm not buying that. You folks claim to have 4 standard works but any time your modern revelations contradict the Bible... it is the Bible that is tossed out. That is very dangerous....to put it mildly.

There can be no other options than name in book and name not in book...and therefore there are no other destinations than stated... lake of fire... new heaven and earth... You can pussy-foot around it...but that is what the Bible says.

The funny thing is that some of your OWN revelations deny the 3 degrees of glory teaching... I've studied this out.... this is what I found.

II Nephi 15:34-35 kingdom of God or an awful, filthy hell

II Nephi 2:27 liberty and eternal life or captivity and eternal death

Mosiah 2:39-41 never-ending happiness or never-ending torment

Mosiah 5:5, 15 heaven, everlasting life,or under the wrath of God in eternal torment

Mos. 15:21-27 redeemed, with God, or perishing in sins

Alma 42:16 happiness or punishment (ETERNAL)

Helaman 12:26 everlasting life or everlasting damnation

Note that D&C 20:9, 27:5 refers to the Book of Mormon as the FULLNESS of the gospel. This makes "3 heavens" a significant omission!

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

D&C 29:27-28, 43-44 eternal life or eternal damnation

D&C 43:25,33, 63:49, 54 eternal life or unquenchable fire

D&C 101:65-67 Celestial glory vs. unquenchable fire

(Note... this key passage was written AFTER the original major revelation of the teaching of 3 heavens... so which is it?)

PEARL OF GREAT PRICE

Moses 6:29 and 59 kingdom of heaven or death and hell

Moses 7:57-67 fullness of joy or chains of darkness

1 No Bible verses teach more than 2 destinations for mankind. Its consistent story is the traditional heaven/hell, although it could more precisely be referred to as hell followed by the lake of fire vs. the new heaven and earth as the two choices (There will be free access between the new heaven and earth, and all have access to the throne of God. See Rev. 21:24-27)

2. The Book of Mormon does not teach the 3 heavens theory.

3. Nor does the Pearl of Great Price teach three heavens, but two destinations.

4. While the Doctrine and Covenants does refer to the 3 heavens in 3 places... other places in D & C say the opposite. And one main revelation (D&C 88) was a part of a larger revelation, a part of which was proven to be false. Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the (current) 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” Did these apostles ever inherit the Celestial kingdom? History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision:

Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20

Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528

William McLellin - Vol. 3:31

William Smith - Vol. 7:483

Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284

SO>>>>>it would appear that to gain celestial glory....you can be excommunicated.... or not. If THIS was a false vision....perhaps the whole of Smith's 3 degrees of glory "revelation" was also false.

Pilgrim2

You remind of a teenager that thinks he/she knows it all and regardless of how you explain or evidence that you show to the contrary, they still argue for their point of view.

The things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit and you choose to interpret what you have read with a limited view and understanding and based on preconceived bias and a desire to prove something false. We have answered your questions ad nauseum.

I see no contradiction with any of the verses that you have sited. You should understand, that to the faithful disciple of Christ, the only way to have a fullness of joy, the only way to escape damnation is by returning to the presence of Heavenly Father. Eternal Life is life with our Heavenly Father and is what is referred to as Celestial Glory. Anything less should rightly be viewed as endless torment or any of the other references that should impress on each of us the need to seek Eternal life.

You don't believe in three glories...fine. But, if indeed there are three glories, I am sure you might agree that Holy writ should lead us all to the ultimate reward and not continually reference a lesser reward. Doing so...IMO...might easily lead one to complacency. Shedding light on the ultimate mercies for all of God's children is essential in understanding his love for his children, but ultimately he views anything less than Celestial glory as eternal suffering and it is aptly expressed through Holy writ.

[Justice]

The interpretation of your "in the book" words have been given. You disagree. However, it all fits nicely in my mind, and does not contradict what the Bible or any other book of scripture teach.

I don't begrudge you that you disagree. It is your right.

What you shouldn't do is begrudge me because I can make both fit.

[Pilgrim2]

Pilgrim did you step outside this morning to witness the Sun? :)

The Prophet is correct on this doctrine of degrees of glory. From where I stand, there is a heaven [celestial kingdom] and a hell [anything less than the celestial kingdom]. Why? When we know what lies within the celestial glory and not allowed to be partakers there of, it would be an hell for us. Any of the former prophets/righteous Saints probably thought the same.

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We can agree on what you have said about anything less than God's presence being hell. But what I see in Rev. 21 and 22 is GOD's PRESENCE everywhere in the new heaven and earth(21:3). If that is the case, it will NOT be at all hellish, but glorious. D & C 76:89 says that even for the telestial glory people, the glory surpasses all understanding. Sounds like a very GLORIOUS.... uh HELL?. ??? You want me to believe its going to be wonderful but terrible? RIGHT. But we already established that the earth will have a celestial glory so the tel glory cannot be in the new heaven or earth. WHERE ARE THEY? My concern is that the prophet has invented ideas about the afterlife...and may also have misled people on issues that may "damn" their soul...not to a lower level, but to hell. Matt. 7:14 says MOST people will end up with "destruction" as their destiny.... that is not what LDS teach! The reason no one can tell me why telestial glory does not FIT with Rev. 21-22... is because it is a lie...it does not exist. If you have been lied to about "salvation" issues of destiny...you may have been lied to about the issue of requirements....that is what false prophets are up to... It is NOT a minor issue. God does not doubletalk as Smith did regarding the afterlife.

Pilgrim2

[pam]

Are you saying Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

[bytor2112]

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We can agree on what you have said about anything less than God's presence being hell. But what I see in Rev. 21 and 22 is GOD's PRESENCE everywhere in the new heaven and earth(21:3). If that is the case, it will NOT be at all hellish, but glorious. D & C 76:89 says that even for the telestial glory people, the glory surpasses all understanding. Sounds like a very GLORIOUS.... uh HELL?. ??? You want me to believe its going to be wonderful but terrible? RIGHT. But we already established that the earth will have a celestial glory so the tel glory cannot be in the new heaven or earth. WHERE ARE THEY? My concern is that the prophet has invented ideas about the afterlife...and may also have misled people on issues that may "damn" their soul...not to a lower level, but to hell. Matt. 7:14 says MOST people will end up with "destruction" as their destiny.... that is not what LDS teach! The reason no one can tell me why telestial glory does not FIT with Rev. 21-22... is because it is a lie...it does not exist. If you have been lied to about "salvation" issues of destiny...you may have been lied to about the issue of requirements....that is what false prophets are up to... It is NOT a minor issue. God does not doubletalk as Smith did regarding the afterlife.

Pilgrim2

I think your concern is trying to drive home your very shallow understanding of the gospel and your misinterpretation of the Bible. Cling to your simple understanding of things if you wish.......but you should back off calling Joseph Smith a liar or suggestions that we teach false doctrines. Polite questions and debate are welcome.......but you reallly need some manners.....IMO

[Pilgrim2]

Are you saying Joseph Smith was a false prophet?

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Since you have already cited me for breaking a rule... I will pass on that question.

What I have pointed out from the 4 standard works is contradictions, (thus far unanswered) which I am willing to hear answers to, if they exist...and I have also stated that I do not believe God contradicts himself.

Pilgrim2

[bytor2112]

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Since you have already cited me for breaking a rule... I will pass on that question.

What I have pointed out from the 4 standard works is contradictions, (thus far unanswered) which I am willing to hear answers to, if they exist...and I have also stated that I do not believe God contradicts himself.

Pilgrim2

Not contradictions........you choose not to accept the explanation. By your same logic the Bible is full of contradictions.

Edited May 29, 2009 by bytor2112

[pam]

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Since you have already cited me for breaking a rule... I will pass on that question.

What I have pointed out from the 4 standard works is contradictions, (thus far unanswered) which I am willing to hear answers to, if they exist...and I have also stated that I do not believe God contradicts himself.

Pilgrim2

That pretty much answered my question. Thank you.

[Pilgrim2]

Not contradictions........you choose not to accept the explanation. By your same logic the Bible is full of contradictions.

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In the interest of not sidetracking the thread... I'll pass on that last comment. But as far as not accepting the explanation... perhaps you can spell it out for me again. WHERE will telestial glory people be at the end...when earth enjoys a celestial glory....will it be the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) or new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:24-27) ? It is an either/or... name in book/name not in book. ? ?

Pilgrim2

[the Ogre]

. . . If you have been lied to about "salvation" issues of destiny...you may have been lied to about the issue of requirements....that is what false prophets are up to... It is NOT a minor issue. God does not doubletalk as Smith did regarding the afterlife.

Since you have already cited me for breaking a rule... I will pass on that question.

What I have pointed out from the 4 standard works is contradictions, (thus far unanswered) which I am willing to hear answers to, if they exist...and I have also stated that I do not believe God contradicts himself.

And you accused me of double talk? Yeah right.

I know you think we've been lied to. When something does not reflect your interpretation of the truth that makes everything else false. If someone continues to rattle off falsehoods, then they must be liars. If I am disagreeing with your version of the truth, am I calling you a liar? Nope. I'm just disagreeing with you without resorting to polemic language.

Accusing someone of lying is very strong and quite insulting. I am sure you did not mean it. You probably do not understand how important Joseph Smith is to us (think: Moses is important to the Jews, calling him a liar might incite some of them to violence, but mormons are Chr-stians, so we aren't going for the rope).

Speak to us as if you were interested in finding common ground and conversation.

Edited May 29, 2009 by the Ogre

[Justice]

Pilgrim, I know I personally have answered your question for you several times, even with examples. You just disagree.

That's OK, but you can't say we didn't explain it. Maybe say, "I disagree with your explanation."

[the Ogre]

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In the interest of not sidetracking the thread... I'll pass on that last comment. But as far as not accepting the explanation... perhaps you can spell it out for me again. WHERE will telestial glory people be at the end...when earth enjoys a celestial glory....will it be the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) or new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:24-27) ? It is an either/or... name in book/name not in book. ? ?

Pilgrim2

I told you the exact location hasn't been revealed. Why don't we know? Because it isn't important. The only thing that is important is getting to the celestial kingdom. That is what is meant by "saved" to a Latter-day Saint. Why worry too much about anything else.

[bytor2112]

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In the interest of not sidetracking the thread... I'll pass on that last comment. But as far as not accepting the explanation... perhaps you can spell it out for me again. WHERE will telestial glory people be at the end...when earth enjoys a celestial glory....will it be the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) or new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:24-27) ? It is an either/or... name in book/name not in book. ? ?

Pilgrim2

As far as hell is concerned, both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants teach that there is a hell. However, as stated by John (Rev. 20:13), hell shall deliver up the dead to be judged "according to their works." The hell John the Revelator described, then, is a place where the spirits of those who did wickedness while in mortality reside until the time of the second resurrection at the end of Christ's millennial reign. This resurrection is described in the Bible as the resurrection of the "unjust" (Acts 24:15) and the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

John the Revelator also speaks of the "great white throne" judgment, which follows the second resurrection, and then speaks of a "second death" which some will experience at that time (Rev. 20:11-15). Those who inherit the second death and are cast into a post-spiritworld hell following their resurrection are described in the Bible as sons of perdition. Their eternal fate is alluded to in such passages as Dan. 12:2; Lk. 12:5; Jn. 17:12; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev. 2:11; 17:8; 20:6, 14; 21:8.

Latter-day Saint scriptures clearly teach of three heavens and define in general terms who will inherit each level (D & C 76:50-112; 80:16- 21; 131:1-2, etc.) They also explain the spirit-world hell which will exist until the end of the second resurrection (D & C 29:36-45) and the kingdom of no glory into which the sons of perdition will be cast following the second resurrection and the final judgment (D & C 88:24; 76:25-38). source fairlds

also....

There are two books of life. Notice verse 12 of Revelation 20 says:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Indicating that there is more than one book.

The first book of life contains the names of everyone who has lived on this earth.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Those not found in this book of life include the sons of perdition and Satan and His angels, who never received a body, therefore never having their names written in the book. They are cast into Hell or outer darkness.

The other book is called the "Lamb's book of life".

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev. 21:27)

The "Lamb's book of life" contains the names of those faithful members of God's kingdom who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom. (See also Rev. 3:5)

Those whose name are not in this book will inherit a lesser kingdom.

It gets confusing because sometimes the Lambs book of life is only called "book of life" also. You won't agree with much of what I say because some of my answers are based on latter-day revelation from our prophets. (Mormon haven)

Edited May 29, 2009 by bytor2112

[Pilgrim2]

And you accused me of double talk? Yeah right.

I know you think we've been lied to. When something does not reflect your interpretation of the truth that makes everything else false. If someone continues to rattle off falsehoods, then they must be liars. If I am disagreeing with your version of the truth, am I calling you a liar? Nope. I'm just disagreeing with you without resorting to polemic language.

Accusing someone of lying is very strong and quite insulting. I am sure you did not mean it. You probably do not understand how important Joseph Smith is to us (think: Moses is important to the Jews, calling him a liar might incite some of them to violence, but mormons are Chr-stians, so we aren't going for the rope).

Speak to us as if you were interested in finding common ground and conversation.

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I realize I went from discussing issues to editorializing ... and I am sorry.

But I simply am not seeing the answers suggested to my question as valid....(where will telestial glory people be at the end) The answer given to my question was that the telestial glory people (at the end) are in some other dimension or address, yet somehow part of the new heaven or earth since their name is in the book. THAT does not fit the picture of Revelation 21. To invent this other place is to say Rev. 21:24-27 is a lie.... i.e. you can have your name in the book and NOT be a part of the new heaven or new(celestial) earth. If your answer requires me to reject the Bible... it is not a valid answer to me. The text clearly presents an either/or... and neither fits with the LDS view..... thanks for trying to blend them... It is interesting to me that you see me as unwilling to "see".....and I see it the opposite.

Pilgrim2

[Justice]

Again, Pilgrim, the location will be within the Kingdom of God, making Biblical interpretation very viable. Exactly where they will reside has not been given yet (not just in this thread, but to us at all). This does not cause you to reject the Bible, only your interpretation of what we're saying makes you think you have to reject the Bible, because you're taking what we say out of context.

[Pilgrim2]

Again, Pilgrim, the location will be within the Kingdom of God, making Biblical interpretation very viable. Exactly where they will reside has not been given yet (not just in this thread, but to us at all). This does not cause you to reject the Bible, only your interpretation of what we're saying makes you think you have to reject the Bible, because you're taking what we say out of context.

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Yes....where people will reside HAS been revealed.... it is either the lake of fire (name not in book), or the new heaven and earth (name in book). Sorry you don't seem to see what the text says. "Whosoever was not found written in the lamb's book of life was cast into the lake of fire." and... " "the city (those who enter into are)... they which are written in the lamb's book of life." I'm not interpreting the text.... I'm just citing it to you. I just noticed that this is more a direct statement of access to the CITY than the new earth. Hmmm It is really an all-or-none option, isn't it, in terms of location?

Pilgrim2

[bytor2112]

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Yes....where people will reside HAS been revealed.... it is either the lake of fire (name not in book), or the new heaven and earth (name in book). Sorry you don't seem to see what the text says. "Whosoever was not found written in the lamb's book of life was cast into the lake of fire." and... " "the city (those who enter into are)... they which are written in the lamb's book of life." I'm not interpreting the text.... I'm just citing it to you. I just noticed that this is more a direct statement of access to the CITY than the new earth. Hmmm It is really an all-or-none option, isn't it, in terms of location?

Pilgrim2

Did you happen to read my post???? I think your question was answered very directly.

There are two books of life. Notice verse 12 of Revelation 20 says:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Indicating that there is more than one book.

The first book of life contains the names of everyone who has lived on this earth.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Those not found in this book of life include the sons of perdition and Satan and His angels, who never received a body, therefore never having their names written in the book. They are cast into Hell or outer darkness.

The other book is called the "Lamb's book of life".

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev. 21:27)

The "Lamb's book of life" contains the names of those faithful members of God's kingdom who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom. (See also Rev. 3:5)

Those whose name are not in this book will inherit a lesser kingdom.

It gets confusing because sometimes the Lambs book of life is only called "book of life" also. You won't agree with much of what I say because some of my answers are based on latter-day revelation from our prophets. (Mormon haven)

Edited May 30, 2009 by bytor2112

[Hemidakota]

Telestial glory is here...again, go outside and view for it yourself.

[bytor2112]

Pilgrim,

Why do you suppose that the scriptures say: " And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." If there are only two locations as you suppose, then why will we be judged according to our works and given our reward based on these works? Aren't you in essence saying that if your name is found in the Lamb's book of life that found their will receive the SAME reward? That seems to contradict the scriptures.....doesn't it?

[Hemidakota]

Even within the Celestial Kingdom there are different rewards...

[Justice]

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Yes....where people will reside HAS been revealed.... it is either the lake of fire (name not in book), or the new heaven and earth (name in book). Sorry you don't seem to see what the text says. "Whosoever was not found written in the lamb's book of life was cast into the lake of fire." and... " "the city (those who enter into are)... they which are written in the lamb's book of life." I'm not interpreting the text.... I'm just citing it to you. I just noticed that this is more a direct statement of access to the CITY than the new earth. Hmmm It is really an all-or-none option, isn't it, in terms of location?

Pilgrim2

I thought you were asking for a specific location, not just the name.

I can't tell you where the Lake of Fire will be. It hasn't been revealed. That's what I mean when I say I can't tell you where the Telestial and Terrestrial glories will reside.

That they will exist in the Kingdom of God I am certain.

[the Ogre]

. . . To invent this other place is to say Rev. 21:24-27 is a lie . . .

See you're changing the subject. This thread is not discussing the CK. We are discussing the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms; neither of which violate the principle of Revelation 21. Why? Because they are not mentioned. The intent of Rev 21 is to describe the Kingdom of G-d after the end of days has arrived (as a rapturite, have you read up on when Latter-day Saints think this is going to happen?). Neither the Terestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms are the Kingdoms of G-d.

So where are the T & T Kingdoms? Like I said the locations have not been revealed. Rev 21 does not even give us a clue. Why? It obviously wasn't a big deal at the time. G-d gave John what H- thought was for the people of the time. Simple. Focused. Clear. Okay folks . . . keep your eye on the ball. Do not look at anything else and stay perfect in the word and hope and you're salvation is sure.

i.e. you can have your name in the book and NOT be a part of the new heaven or new(celestial) earth[?]

If you mean, do I believe the metaphor for salvation represented by "the book of life" is literal? If I believe this metaphor is literal then no. If the metaphor is literal, your name must be written in the book. If however, I think there is even a possibility that "the book of life" is either allegorical or metaphorical, then my previous answer stands: name in the book, different address.

. . . reject the Bible . . .

Now why would anyone want to do that? I don't reject the bible, so why would I expect the same for you. I think the only expectation I have for you is conduct a close reading of the chapters you quote and recognize the logical fallacy of quoting them when they have nothing to do with the T&T debate.

Yes....where people will reside HAS been revealed.... it is either the lake of fire (name not in book), or the new heaven and earth (name in book). Sorry you don't seem to see what the text says. "Whosoever was not found written in the lamb's book of life was cast into the lake of fire." and... " "the city (those who enter into are)... they which are written in the lamb's book of life." I'm not interpreting the text.... I'm just citing it to you. I just noticed that this is more a direct statement of access to the CITY than the new earth. Hmmm It is really an all-or-none option, isn't it, in terms of location?

Ummm . . . your answer hinges on one assumption: There is no Modern Revelation and G-d has completed all instruction of mankind.

Latter-day Saints would never put G-d the F-ther or H-s S-n in a box. If Th-y feel it important to talk today, then we are willing to listen.

[Pilgrim2]

Did you happen to read my post???? I think your question was answered very directly.

There are two books of life. Notice verse 12 of Revelation 20 says:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Indicating that there is more than one book.

The first book of life contains the names of everyone who has lived on this earth.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Those not found in this book of life include the sons of perdition and Satan and His angels, who never received a body, therefore never having their names written in the book. They are cast into Hell or outer darkness.

The other book is called the "Lamb's book of life".

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev. 21:27)

The "Lamb's book of life" contains the names of those faithful members of God's kingdom who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom. (See also Rev. 3:5)

Those whose name are not in this book will inherit a lesser kingdom.

It gets confusing because sometimes the Lambs book of life is only called "book of life" also. You won't agree with much of what I say because some of my answers are based on latter-day revelation from our prophets. (Mormon haven)

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OK.... I apologize...I did miss that thought about two books...one book of life....one LAMB'S book of life...but I don't follow the comment that all who ever lived are in that book of life...as it says ones whose names are not in it are cast into the lake of fire....so you are saying NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire??? That's not what Rev. 21:8 says. I think I missed something here...

As far as your revelations clearing things up...

"For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand." Alma 5:58

This says the opposite of what you just suggested.

So the names are also interchangeable is the idea.......? ? ? Uh...that's what I was saying....!

Pilgrim2

[bytor2112]

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OK.... I apologize...I did miss that thought about two books...one book of life....one LAMB'S book of life...but I don't follow the comment that all who ever lived are in that book of life...as it says ones whose names are not in it are cast into the lake of fire....so you are saying NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire??? That's not what Rev. 21:8 says. I think I missed something here...

As far as your revelations clearing things up...

"For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand." Alma 5:58

This says the opposite of what you just suggested.

So the names are also interchangeable is the idea.......? ? ? Uh...that's what I was saying....!

Pilgrim2

Slowly....reread post.:)

[Pilgrim2]

Slowly....reread post.:)

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I have slowly reread it. If you have a point to make...make it.

Pilgrim2