Going to Hell

[mikbone]

Elder Parley P. Pratt

[T]o those who deserve it [The spirit world after mortality] . . . is a place of punishment, a purgatory or hell, where spirits are buffeted till the day of redemption. (Key to the Science of Theology, pp. 132-33) TLDP:637

When I made my statement I made a generalized statement knowing that both LDS and non-LDS would be reading my words.

I wanted to make a distinction between the non-LDS beliefs of Hell and what we (LDS members) currently know and understand as Spirit Prison.

If you want to say that we believe in Hell which we don't. You would actually be commenting about Spirit Prison. And the many quotes that you listed above are very nice but the best information we have about Spirt Prison is in D&C 138. It is by far - the most clear and precise explanation of Spirit Prison that we currently have. From D&C 138:30-33 we know that missionaries are currently carrying the light of the gospel to the souls that are in Spirit Prison. This proves that there is hope for those that are in Spirit Prison. That they can still repent of their sins and recieve the gospel.

If you are going to compare our Spirit Prison to anything, it is much more applicable to what other religions believe to be Purgatory.

I stand by my statement. We do not believe in a Hell. If you want to use the term Hell to describe a temporary feeling of mental anguish thats fine. But when you throw around the term Hell especially in a mixed group there is going to be lots of confusion.

Edited May 13, 2009 by mikbone

[ADoyle90815]

As someone who isn't LDS, the spirit prison to me sounds a lot like the Catholic idea of purgatory, since that's a temporary place of punishment.

[prisonchaplain]

As someone who isn't LDS, the spirit prison to me sounds a lot like the Catholic idea of purgatory, since that's a temporary place of punishment.

There are times when the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints sounds very Pentecostal (burning in the bossom, hearing the Spirit, etc.). Other times almost fundamental Baptist (strict codes about dating, the WoW, dressing up for church, etc.), and then times like this, when you sound Catholic. In reality, of course, it is none of those...but perhaps it's these areas of common spirituality that leads many of us Gentiles to find this church and people very intriguing?

[Giant_Son]

There are times when the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints sounds very Pentecostal (burning in the bossom, hearing the Spirit, etc.). Other times almost fundamental Baptist (strict codes about dating, the WoW, dressing up for church, etc.), and then times like this, when you sound Catholic. In reality, of course, it is none of those...but perhaps it's these areas of common spirituality that leads many of us Gentiles to find this church and people very intriguing?

That's funny, PC. What are the rest of Christendom supposed to do with us?!

[Hemidakota]

When I made my statement I made a generalized statement knowing that both LDS and non-LDS would be reading my words.

I wanted to make a distinction between the non-LDS beliefs of Hell and what we (LDS members) currently know and understand as Spirit Prison.

If you want to say that we believe in Hell which we don't. You would actually be commenting about Spirit Prison. And the many quotes that you listed above are very nice but the best information we have about Spirt Prison is in D&C 138. It is by far - the most clear and precise explanation of Spirit Prison that we currently have. From D&C 138:30-33 we know that missionaries are currently carrying the light of the gospel to the souls that are in Spirit Prison. This proves that there is hope for those that are in Spirit Prison. That they can still repent of their sins and recieve the gospel.

If you are going to compare our Spirit Prison to anything, it is much more applicable to what other religions believe to be Purgatory.

I stand by my statement. We do not believe in a Hell. If you want to use the term Hell to describe a temporary feeling of mental anguish thats fine. But when you throw around the term Hell especially in a mixed group there is going to be lots of confusion.

SPIRIT PRISON and HELL are two distinct and separate places brother.

[Hemidakota]

my point exactly - I am always saying it is not our responsibility or our right to judge others.

Hmm...lets hope that any serving Bishop, Stake President, and to include the Prophet don't follow this advise.

[prisonchaplain]

That's funny, PC. What are the rest of Christendom supposed to do with us?!

I'm still torn between starting an inflammatory website ministry to save some wretched souls, or sitting down over a nice cup of :::cough::: Postum and discussing the finer points of theology.

[Hemidakota]

You know, some days, you have to shoot from the hip with a few people vice leaving a long trail of bread crumbs in helping them. :)

[mikbone]

SPIRIT PRISON and HELL are two distinct and separate places brother.

Ok then brother.

Are you trying to say that Hell is Outer Darkness (the place where the Sons of Perdition will be condemed to reside)?

If so, you are getting into an area of complete speculation.

In the Book of Mormon the only location where the term Outer Darkness is used is in Alma 40:12-14 and in those verses, the term is obviously refering to Spirit Prison not the ultimate incarceration for those Sons of Perdition.

Outer Darkness as is referred to in D&C 76:31-48 is a totally different place than Spirit Prison.

There are strict requirements that one has to fulfil prior to becoming a Son of Perdition:

1) That person must have a pure and full knowledge of God and the Plan of Salvation. He must have recieved the second comforter. This is huge stuff. Like apostle type knowledge. Like Cain having a personal encounter with God himself, Moses 5:21-26.

Joseph Smith, Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 (Commerce, Ill.) as recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion

The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you (21) He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. & he that loveth me shall be loved of my father & I will love him & will manifest myself to him (23) If a man Love me he will keep my words. & my Father will love him. & we will come unto him, & make our abode with him.

2) Essentially after this man has then recieved his calling and election. He then has to reject the Lord and the Plan of Salvation. He has to crucify the Lord anew. I only know of two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and Cain. I can think of none others. And even Judas Iscariot's betrayal and final destination is under debate.

Joseph F. Smith Gospel Doctrine p 433-435

If Judas really had known God's power, and had partaken thereof, and did actually "deny the truth" and "defy" that power, "having denied the Holy Spirit after he had received it," and also "denied the Only Begotten," after God had "revealed him" unto him, then there can be no doubt that he "will die the second death. That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards become under the influence of the Spirit.....

But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Finally as I have already stated we do not know what occurs there. So trying to define it is worthless. D&C 76:45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows. Yet men have tried. Take for Example Brigham Young's supposition of their destiny.

Journal of Discourses 1:275-276

Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. That appears a mystery, but the principle has been in existence from all eternity, only it is something you have not known or thought of. When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball’s old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. All I have to say about it is what Jesus says—I will destroy Death, and him that hath the power of it, which is the devil. And if he ever makes “a full end of the wicked,” what else can he do than entirely disorganize them, and reduce them to their native element? Here are some of the mysteries of the kingdom.

In my mind this could be accomplished by sending a spirit or resurrected being into a black hole. This would cause the matter that was once a soul to become torn apart into its most basic parts. Hence a complete dissolution.

Do I think that a black hole is Outer Darkness? I don't know. But its a bad place.

Edited May 14, 2009 by mikbone