What comes first, faith or hope?

[Kenny]

If we hope for something better we lack true faith because it is tinged with doubt. God has told us there is something better and he cannot lie so we don’t have to hope he’s telling the truth. Also if we are doing the best we can and striving to obey all commandments we qualify ourselves through the gift of repentance for the mercy of God. So we don’t have to hope have we done enough.

We came from a perfect place, we set off on this journey not expecting to fail and except a lesser existence to the one we had. All we wanted was to be like our Father and Mother and inherit the kingdoms promised to those that kept both estates the great plan laid it out for us what we needed to do to get back.

Understanding this as referred in the scripture quoted does increase faith because this kind of hope dispels doubt.

[Kenny]

Yes the scripture you quoted says exactly what I've been saying once we except God we have hope in Him and we can hope for better things like the scripture says because with God all things are possible.

[Dr T]

Good question :) I think Hope is first and then Faith follows. From the example of somebody walking across a tightrope it's easy to say "I have hope that u can walk across it without falling." See, we can have hope that someone can walk across a tight rope but that is not faith. I think "faith" is active and only comes in this example when somebody gets into a wheelbarrow for the tightrope walker to push across. I think we can easily say "I believe u can walk across the tightrope with a wheelbarrow" but until we are active with our belief does it become faith. Getting into the wheelbarrow is actually faith.

[the Ogre]

2 cents: I wonder if it is a broken-heart and a contrite spirit that comes first?

[Misshalfway]

I agree with Dr. T. I think for me at least, it starts with hope. Hope that all those blessings could be mine. Then I kinda seek to know what I have to do and how I have to think and what I need to pray for so the hope can turn into realization.

[Hemidakota]

Let me propose this seven step process;

DESIRE --> HOPE --> FAITH --> CHARACTER CHANGE --> CHARITY --> EXAMPLE/ENDURING/GOD's WILL --> KNOWLEDGE

Edited May 21, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Kenny]

A broken-heart and a contrite spirit says it all in one small statement. Broken heart stems from love or the loss of love once had, but in this context it refers to the love of God or more precise our love of God.

It's recognising what retched souls we are and how sorry we are for coming so short of the love we get from God. But knowing this we offer our contrition and by doing so qualify for the grace of God and there it is again good old hope.

Is this getting boring?

[the Ogre]

. . . Is this getting boring?

Nope.

So, Broken-heart & Contrite Spirit (3 Ne 9.20), then Hope & Faith & Charity (Moroni 7), followed by meekness (Moroni 7 and D&C 19.23)?

Am I missing something?

[Justice]

Well, the very first thing would be when a person hears the word of God he would have to believe before anythng else came of hearing the word.

So, maybe believe first? This would cause one to recognize their sin which would lead to a broken heart...

Maybe?

[Justice]

It's interesting that faith is the first principle in the 4th Article of Faith.

However, the first Article of Faith is what be believe first, since they are statements of belief.

We must first believe God lives, and that Jesus Christ is His Son. That is the first step to obtaining hope of what they offer. Once we believe and have hope, that would lead us to the rest, maybe.

Hope is a hard thing to put a finger on because it really drives every step, even believing.

[the Ogre]

So, maybe believe first? This would cause one to recognize their sin which would lead to a broken heart...

Maybe?

Right! Conversion. Conversion is missing from the discussion. I don't think there needs to be a formulaic progression at all. I think what is needed is a recognition for importance of each component.

What about repentance? Where does it fit in the whole scheme of things? Eventually we'll get to home/visiting-teaching and taking your turn as a nursery-leader/scout-master.

Ooooop: what about enduring to the end????

[Justice]

LOL

OK OK

My thought was to try to leave the ordinances or "works" out of it. It just seemed to be one has to believe before anything else can happen.

I'll go back to my reading.

[MikeUpton]

Re: Enduring to the end.

I think its right that there are many kinds of hope, But to hope that you go to the celestial kingdom is unlikely unless you first have some measure of belief that it exists. Again as Ether stated, it is this hope that will allow you to endure to the end. It creates an anchor to your soul, for good works.

Hope is present with faith, because though it does not necessarily imply doubt, faith does imply that you do not have a perfect knowledge. Thus stated by Alma:

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Alma 32

Another aspect of enduring to the end is continual submission to God's will, avoiding the pride cycle, humbling yourself without being compelled to be humble. It is something you cannot do well unless you first place your faith and trust in God.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Keep the Faith

When submit yourself fully to the will of the Lord, and are ready to do anything he asks of you, then he will be far more likely to bless you with his healing powers. I don't know that he never heals this way unless someone is completely submissive, I can remember several times in the scriptures, in the New Testament especially that he healed people who just up and left, forgetting to thank him. But he gives unto men weakness that they might be humble. When the reason for the weakness is fulfilled (you are humble), then it follows he will be a lot more willing to take that weakness away:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Ether 12 Edited May 20, 2009 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Re: Enduring to the end.

I think its right that there are many kinds of hope, But to hope that you go to the celestial kingdom is unlikely unless you first have some measure of belief that heaven exists. Again as Ether stated, it is this hope that will allow you to endure to the end. It creates an anchor to your soul, for good works.

Hope is present with faith, because though it does not necessarily imply doubt, faith does imply that you do not have a perfect knowledge. Thus stated by Alma:

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Alma 32

Another aspect of enduring to the end is continual submission to God's will, avoiding the pride cycle, humbling yourself without being compelled to be humble. It is something you cannot do well unless you first place your faith and trust in God.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Keep the Faith

When submit yourself fully to the will of the Lord, and are ready to do anything he asks of you, then he will be far more likely to bless you with his healing powers. I don't know that he never heals this way unless someone is completely submissive, I can remember several times in the scriptures, in the New Testament especially that he healed people who just up and left, forgetting to thank him. But he gives unto men weakness that they might be humble. When the reason for the weakness is fulfilled (you are humble), then it follows he will be more willing to take that weakness away:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Ether 12

[martybess]

I think it can go both ways????

[Either 12:4]

"Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."

Edited May 20, 2009 by martybess

[MikeUpton]

I think it can go both ways????

[Either 12:4]

"Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."

i think so too. there are many levels of hope many kinds of hope

[martybess]

Conversion/changed or born again has to be in the equation as well.

Edited May 21, 2009 by martybess

[martybess]

Sorry this is long. Pres Uchtdorf gave a great talk on Hope. I think it's really great to review with an open the mind the pillar principles of the Gospel. I'm really learning on this thread!!! So many good ppl and post. No arguing and trying prove how smart one is. - Marty

A while back I broke it down and used it in a lesson. It's a fill in the blanks. :)

The Infinite Power of Hope President Dieter F. Uchtdorf Second Counselor in the First Presidency

The Importance of Hope

“Hope is one leg of a three-legged stool, together with faith and charity. These three stabilize our lives regardless of the rough or uneven surfaces we might encounter at the time. The scriptures are clear and certain about the importance of hope.”

________________________________________

1. The Apostle Paul taught that the scriptures were written to the end that we “___________ have hope.” (Romans 15:4) ”For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”

2. Hope has the power to fill our lives with _________________.

(Psalm 146:5) ”Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God:”

3. Its absence—when this desire of our ____________ is delayed—can make “the ________________ sick.”

(Proverbs 13:12) “Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.”

4. Hope is a gift of the _______________. (Moroni 8:26) ”And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.”

5. It is a hope that through the _____________________ of Jesus Christ and the power of His Resurrection, we shall be raised unto life eternal and this because of our faith in the Savior. Moroni 7:41) “And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.”

6. This kind of hope is both a principle of promise as well as a commandment, with all commandments, we have the responsibility to make it an active part of our lives and overcome the temptation to lose hope.

(Colossians 1:21–23) “21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconcile.

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister”

7. Hope in our Heavenly Father’s merciful plan of happiness leads to _____________________. (Romans 15:13) “Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.”

8. Hope in our Heavenly Father’s merciful plan of happiness leads to _____________________. (Psalm 33:22) “Let thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.”

9. Hope in our Heavenly Father’s merciful plan of happiness leads to _____________________. (Romans 12:12)” Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer”

10. Hope in our Heavenly Father’s merciful plan of happiness leads to _____________________. (Proverbs 10:28) “The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.”

11. The hope of salvation is like a protective _____________________. (1 Thessalonians 5:8) “But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation”

12. It is the foundation of our faith. (Hebrews 11:1) ”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

(Moroni 7:40) ”And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?”

13. Hope is an ___________________ to our souls. (Hebrews 6:19) “Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil.” (Ether 12:4.) “Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.”

14. Moroni in his solitude—even after having witnessed the complete destruction of his people—believed in hope. In the twilight of the Nephite nation, Moroni wrote that without hope we cannot receive an inheritance in the kingdom of God. (Ether 12:32) “And I also remember that thou hast said that thou hast prepared a house for man, yea, even among the mansions of thy Father, in which man might have a more excellent hope; wherefore man must hope, or he cannot receive an inheritance in the place which thou hast prepared.” (Romans 8:24) “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”

But Why Then Is There Despair?

________________________________________

15. The scriptures say that there must be “an opposition in all things.” (2 Nephi 2:11) “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.”

What, Then, Is Hope?

________________________________________

16. The complexities of language offer several variations and intensities of the word hope. For example, a toddler may hope for a toy phone; an adolescent may hope for a phone call from a special friend; and an adult may simply hope that the phone will stop ringing altogether.

I wish to speak today of the hope that transcends the trivial and centers on the Hope of Israel, the great hope of mankind, even our Redeemer, Jesus Christ. (Jeremiah 17:13) “O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.”

17. Hope is not knowledge, but rather the abiding trust that the Lord will fulfill His promise to us.

(Romans 8:24) “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”

18. It is confidence that if we live according to God’s laws and the words of His prophets now, we will receive desired blessings in the future. (D&C 59:23) “But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.”

19. It is believing and expecting that our prayers will be answered. It is manifest in confidence, optimism, enthusiasm, and patient perseverance. In the language of the gospel, this hope is sure, unwavering, and active. The prophets of old speak of a “firm hope”. (Alma 34:41) “But that ye have patience, and bear with those afflictions, with a firm hope that ye shall one day rest from all your afflictions.”

20. The prophets of old speak of a “lively hope.” (1 Peter 1:3) “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

21. It is a hope glorifying God through good works. With hope comes joy and happiness.

(Psalm 146:5) “Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God”

22. With hope, we can “have patience, and bear … [our] afflictions.”

(Alma 34:41) “But that ye have patience, and bear with those afflictions, with a firm hope that ye shall one day rest from all your afflictions”

Things We Hope For, Things We Hope In

________________________________________

The things we hope for are often future events. If only we could look beyond the horizon of mortality into what awaits us beyond this life. Is it possible to imagine a more glorious future than the one prepared for us by our Heavenly Father?

23. Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we need not fear, for we will live forever, never to taste of death again.

(Alma 11:45) “Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.”

24. Because of His infinite Atonement, we can be cleansed of sin and stand pure and holy before the judgment bar.

(2 Nephi 2:6–10) 6 “Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement”

25. The Savior is the Author of our Salvation.

(Hebrews 5:9) “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”

“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” (1 Corinthians 2:9) “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him”

26. In times of distress, we can hold tightly to the hope that things will “work together for [our] good” as we follow the counsel of God’s prophets.

(D&C 90:24) “Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and call things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another”

Hope Leads to Good Works

________________________________________

27. We learn to cultivate hope the same way we learn to walk, one step at a time. As we study the scriptures, speak with our Heavenly Father daily, commit to keep the commandments of God, like the Word of Wisdom, and to pay a full tithing, we attain hope. (Romans 15:14) “And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another”

28. We grow in our ability to “abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost,” as we more perfectly live the gospel. (Romans 15:13) “Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.”

There may be times when we must make a courageous decision to hope even when everything around us contradicts this hope. Like Father Abraham, we will “against hope [believe] in hope.” (Romans 4:18) “Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.”

29. Or, as one writer expressed, “in the depth of winter, [we find] within [us] an invincible summer.” ( Albert Camus, in John Bartlett, comp., Familiar Quotations, 17th ed. (2002), 790)

30. Faith, hope, and charity complement each other, and as one increases, the others grow as well. Hope comes of faith,

(Ether 12:4) “Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.”

31. For without faith, there is no hope. (Moroni 7:42) “Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.”

32. In like manner faith comes of hope, for faith is “the substance of things hoped for.” (Hebrews 11:1) “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

33. The things we hope for lead us to faith, while the things we hope in lead us to charity. The three qualities—faith, hope, and charity (Moroni 10:20) “Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.”

34. Working together, grounded on the truth and light of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, lead us to abound in good works. (Alma 7:24) “And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.”

Hope from Personal Experience

________________________________________

35. With Jeremiah I proclaim, “Blessed is the man … whose hope the Lord is.”

(Jeremiah 17:7) “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.”

36. With Joel I testify, “The Lord [is] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

(Joel 3:16) “The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

37. With Nephi I declare: “Press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.”

(2 Nephi 31:20) “Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.”

38. This is the quality of hope we must cherish and develop. Such a mature hope comes in and through our Savior Jesus Christ, for “every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as [the Savior] is pure.”

(1 John 3:3.) “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

39. The Lord has given us a reassuring message of hope: “Fear not, little flock.”

(D&C 6:34.) “Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail.”

40. God will wait with “open arms to receive”42 those who give away their sins and continue in faith, hope, and charity.

(Mormon 6:17.) “O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!”

[unquote]

Edited May 21, 2009 by martybess

[Hemidakota]

Marty, excellent posting...the only thing with HOPE as Mike and you already noted from Ether, it also can be a used to gain further groweth with faith.

CHANGED usually after faith is applied or a direct result of faith.

[martybess]

Marty, excellent posting...the only thing with HOPE as Mike and you already noted from Ether, it also can be a used to gain further groweth with faith.

CHANGED usually after faith is applied or a direct result of faith.

Yes.... great insight Hemidakota! As you posted: HOPE is "used to gain further groweth with faith"

DESIRE --> HOPE --> FAITH --> BORN AGAIN / CHARACTER CHANGE / --> CHARITY --> EXAMPLE/ENDURING/GOD's WILL --> KNOWLEDGE

Edited May 21, 2009 by martybess

[the Ogre]

Yes.... great insight Hemidakota! As you posted: HOPE is "used to gain further groweth with faith"

DESIRE --> HOPE --> FAITH --> BORN AGAIN / CHARACTER CHANGE / --> CHARITY --> EXAMPLE/ENDURING/GOD's WILL --> KNOWLEDGE

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

I think the nature of the formula is flawed. I think you need to start looking at a matrix of some sort. Maybe a multivariable derivative.

[martybess]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

I think the nature of the formula is flawed. I think you need to start looking at a matrix of some sort. Maybe a multivariable derivative.

There has to be the bare basics, then multivariable would you not say?

Then one would grow along the path in being broken hearted and contrite. Also one would include trust "trust in the Lord with all thy heart" and repentance.

It's really hard for me to leave works out.... Nibley said there's only 2 things we can be good at here on earth really and they are "repentance and service" Example faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains and we could walk on water so were really not good at it. Knowledge is another. If we had pure knowledge our faith would then be non-existent and so on. I don't know how many of you have seen this but it really was great I thought: YouTube - Part 3 - Hugh Nibley - Faith of an Observer - *Video* Mormon

About half way though this he makes the statement about how we can really only be good at 2 things.

Oops I hope I didn't start a tangent here while were conversing about hope and faith.

[MikeUpton]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

I think the nature of the formula is flawed. I think you need to start looking at a matrix of some sort. Maybe a multivariable derivative.

I am glad you don't believe in the idea "Works only if you believe in it," this is not what the scripture in Ether was referring to. Nor was it the point I was trying to make. The intent of the scripture is exactly what it says, that the hope that comes from faith creates an anchor to the souls of men that keeps them abounding in good works.

A man (or woman) may try the good works the Gospel prescribes, make changes to his life as a test of the Gospel, while he lacks faith these things are true. But in order to have a lasting and permanent effect, faith must be developed, otherwise he will have no real power to continue in this course.

And indeed, why should you live in a manner to make big sacrifice or change in your life when you do not have faith that what you are doing is correct? Throughout life your obedience to God will be tested in many ways. Those who do not have faith will fall away from the truth and will not have the power to keep the commandments. It is, as M. Russell Ballard discussed in the following article, an essential part of keeping steadfast in the teachings of Jesus Christ found in his gospel.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Steadfast in Christ

Edit: I don't know how linear all of this is either. I honestly haven't been paying much attention to whatever formula has been presented. But I do know there must be certain things done in order to receive the blessings of doing those things. Having faith in Jesus Christ, and in his teachings(the predicated law) are one such thing you must have, before you can have the hope for a better world which anchors you to be a lifelong follower of Christ(the blessing).

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Doctrine and Covenants 130

I agree, your heart must be broken, your spirit contrite.

Edited May 21, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Kenny]

What I have been saying or trying to say is that if we just hope for something we leave it to chance or providence whichever way you look at it.

But hope in Christ comforts the soul because in order to have this sort of hope we believe in the reality of Him.

Knowing God this way invokes in me all the emotions we have discussed and the scriptures bear up. There is a realisation that although I am a child of my Father in heaven my life choices have created an enmity between us. Then I learned that through his son Jesus Christ I can repent of the things that created this enmity and then Father can use his grace to accept me back.

These are the seeds of humility, meekness, real faith, hope and charity towards my fellow man in me.

If there are those who can achieve this another way wonderful they are truly blessed.

For me there is no other way

[Hemidakota]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

I think the nature of the formula is flawed. I think you need to start looking at a matrix of some sort. Maybe a multivariable derivative.

This is a sub-set of BORN-AGAIN and CHANGE OF CHARACTER...