Why some men are not saved?

[prisonchaplain]

Farmer, that's fine. If it helps, I would say that, by faith, once the farmer receives the seeds (faith), he has salvation. Of course, nobody else will know if the salvation is true, if it's taken root, until the harvest. God, on the other hand, knew before he even gave out the seed (God's foreknowledge, as distinct from pre-destination).

[Traveler]

There may indeed be many ways to look at Jesus' parable, and I do not discount that we are each responsible for our own response to the Gospel. On the other hand, the Church does bear responsibility to proclaim the Good News, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. If we are too lazy to go, or if we go with a distorted message, then we do share some blame for failing in the Great Commission.

I'm not so sure we disagree here, overall. However, your focus is on the recipient of the Gospel, and mine on those who proclaim.

Thank you for your focus. May I ask your opinion? What then is the consequence upon those that believe in Christ but fail (for what-ever reason) to proclaim the Gospel adequately and a soul is forever lost? I am wondering if our opinions are similar.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Farmer, that's fine. If it helps, I would say that, by faith, once the farmer receives the seeds (faith), he has salvation. Of course, nobody else will know if the salvation is true, if it's taken root, until the harvest. God, on the other hand, knew before he even gave out the seed (God's foreknowledge, as distinct from pre-destination).

I would change your wording to this:

If it helps, I would say that, by faith, once the farmer receives the seeds (belief), he has salvation.

This is the whole point I am trying to make, that without works our faith is dead. One needs do nothing to receive or believe in Christ (seeds). But, to exercise faith in Christ they must keep His commandments. If a person chooses not to then there will be no fruit.

There are many ways to destroy your harvest, not just by a lack of good works.

[JohnnyRudick]

Farmer, that's fine. If it helps, I would say that, by faith, once the farmer receives the seeds (faith), he has salvation. Of course, nobody else will know if the salvation is true, if it's taken root, until the harvest. God, on the other hand, knew before he even gave out the seed (God's foreknowledge, as distinct from pre-destination).

I have to agree with you.

Although you and I understand "foreknowledge" as a doctrine a little bit different.

And in the end in both instances. The farmer worked.

'less he kealed over as soon as he seeds were delivered.

Still. . .

Well, that's another thread:rolleyes:

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

The answer is easy. Because we willingly bind ourselves to the things of this world. That means we follow our own will and not God's.

No matter what a man or woman may achieve in this life, they will fail if they do not follow HIS WILL; they are not entrusted with greater things.

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you for your focus. May I ask your opinion? What then is the consequence upon those that believe in Christ but fail (for what-ever reason) to proclaim the Gospel adequately and a soul is forever lost? I am wondering if our opinions are similar.

The Traveler

What I offer is indeed an opinion. Since there is no sorrow, no tears in heaven, my thought is that those who are less faithful with the gospel on earth will receive less responsiblity in the heavenly kingdom. The rewards will be magnificent, but less.

You've often shared that we will be exactly where we want to be in eternity. At least for the heavenly kingdom, I agree. Those who struggled, maintained their faith, but who floundered, and received much more than they gave, even from fellow believers, would not be content to be given tremendous responsiblities and duties in heaven. They were labor diligently, and their work will be fulfilling. It won't be the same as what that which matyrs, "100-fold harvesters," and 5-talent reepers get.

[JohnnyRudick]

What I offer is indeed an opinion. Since there is no sorrow, no tears in heaven, . . .

I get your sentiments and concur but. . .

No sorrow or tears in Heaven?

Look again at your source and try to see it aside from some preacher's homily and just look at what is said.

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

[Traveler]

What I offer is indeed an opinion. Since there is no sorrow, no tears in heaven, my thought is that those who are less faithful with the gospel on earth will receive less responsiblity in the heavenly kingdom. The rewards will be magnificent, but less.

You've often shared that we will be exactly where we want to be in eternity. At least for the heavenly kingdom, I agree. Those who struggled, maintained their faith, but who floundered, and received much more than they gave, even from fellow believers, would not be content to be given tremendous responsiblities and duties in heaven. They were labor diligently, and their work will be fulfilling. It won't be the same as what that which matyrs, "100-fold harvesters," and 5-talent reepers get.

Somewhat similar. I think my beliefs are a little different. Since I believe we are what we want to be with what we have. Therefore I believe it is quite possible that someone that was given greater talents and does poorly may lose some of what they thought they had gained. And someone that had fewer talents but does very well with what they have will be added on.

Thus I believe it is quite possible that the soul that did not believe in Christ because his example of Christ was poor could well be “rewarded” with greater “talents” than those that had been given access to greater talents in knowing of Christ in this life but did not honor and respect their greater gift.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

It won't be the same as what that which matyrs, "100-fold harvesters," and 5-talent reepers get.

Was it Caesar or Isaiah who said, "To the highest brownie point earners go the spoils"?

[prisonchaplain]

I get your sentiments and concur but. . .

No sorrow or tears in Heaven?

Look again at your source and try to see it aside from some preacher's homily and just look at what is said.

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

OK, here's the source: Revelation 21:3-5:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Perhaps you could specify what it is you think I've missed???

[Traveler]

OK, here's the source: Revelation 21:3-5:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Perhaps you could specify what it is you think I've missed???

It is my impression that the scriptures are not talking about heaven but the time on earth after Jesus has returned. I believe that when Satan was cast out of heaven that it was a sad day for the Father - worthy of a tear or two.

The Traveler

[Jim108]

I have a few questions primarily meant for the non-LDS members of this forum, but all are welcome to participate.

If the works of Christ (atonement, death, and resurrection) are enough to save every man, as stand alone works, why are some men not saved?

It is not my intention to ask a misleading or trick question. If you feel the question could be worded better, please revise the question then answer it with what you believe to be true, keeping the original intent of the question.

(Note: Let's skip over the differences we have about the afterlife, whether just heaven and hell or many kingdoms of glory. Let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that being "saved" means saved from the lake of fire or outer darkness.)

So, read the question (in bold) and reply with what you believe is the truth. Posting some scriptures that state your beliefs would be helpful. We'll get to the other questions after we've discussed this one.

Thank You Justice for asking this question. I have been away so I did not see the post until now.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

What this means to me: When you confess your belief for Jesus you are saved and will have eternal life. The first time you pray to Jesus and state your belief in Him the spirit will enter you and you are now "born again". As you can see, this salvation is not dependent on any works other than belief. You are saved by grace and it is absolute. The passage also infers that some will perish. To me, this is the seperation from God for eternity. In other words hell. For some reason most people who hear the "good news" will choose not to believe. Most people I know are in this catagory. They may say that they believe in some kind of god or that they are a good person and god will not send them to hell. I tell them that this is not good enough. I tell them to read John and to listen to what Jesus tells us. Most don't bother to take a look. This is why I say this, the road to heaven is narrow and difficult and the road to hell is wide and easy. I am sad to say most will go to hell.

The thing about the good news of Jesus is that it really is very simple. You don't need religion or popes or bishops or pastors. You only need Jesus. In Jesus alone we find everything needed for salvation. We surrender ourselves to Gods will and works come natural. We can rest in Jesus.

Thank you for asking what I believe in.

[JohnnyRudick]

OK, here's the source: Revelation 21:3-5:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Perhaps you could specify what it is you think I've missed???

I know it says there will be no more pain or even crying.

But in order for Him to wipe away tears, there must first be tears.

I don't get the difference.

Maybe the angel had a different idea about crying.

I really don't know.

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

It is my impression that the scriptures are not talking about heaven but the time on earth after Jesus has returned. I believe that when Satan was cast out of heaven that it was a sad day for the Father - worthy of a tear or two.

The Traveler

No, I think the Chaplin has the timeline right.

I think some us us get this timeline given confused.

This is after the Millennium and the recreation of the Earth.

Yet God wipes away tears.

Got to be something there.

I just don't understand it either

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

OK, here's the source: Revelation 21:3-5:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

Perhaps you could specify what it is you think I've missed???

There is still weeping...

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe I'm simple minded. My thought on the "no more tears," is that we will be in eternity and have the heart and insight of God. We will see as Jesus sees, and we will no-longer be in a corrupt world full of death, crime, heartbreak. Rather than plumming deep theological meanings about the distant future, me thinks John the Revelator was offering us hope to get through our current struggles, in that we could look forward to a much better future.

[Justice]

Enoch saw God weep and was in awe how God could cry, and what would make Him cry (this isn't the whole account, just a portion to make a point).

Moses 7:

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

God's answer:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

Then, God showed Enoch the sins of the world:

41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

Then God showed Enoch what would dry those tears:

47 And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me.

Moses 7 tells more about Enoch than is offered in the Bible, and what a powerful story it is.

[Traveler]

No, I think the Chaplin has the timeline right.

I think some us us get this timeline given confused.

This is after the Millennium and the recreation of the Earth.

Yet God wipes away tears.

Got to be something there.

I just don't understand it either

Bro. Rudick

I guess this is my error then - but I thought that there would be not death during the millennium and that G-d (Jesus Christ) would dwell with man - thus it is called "the second coming". (it was my understanding that the Book of Revelation is not entirely in chronological order.)

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Maybe I'm simple minded. My thought on the "no more tears," is that we will be in eternity and have the heart and insight of God. We will see as Jesus sees, and we will no-longer be in a corrupt world full of death, crime, heartbreak. Rather than plumming deep theological meanings about the distant future, me thinks John the Revelator was offering us hope to get through our current struggles, in that we could look forward to a much better future.

I find much agreement and comfort in your thoughts - but I believe that our tears become "divine tears" when they are shed for others and no longer for ourselves.

The Traveler

[JohnnyRudick]

I guess this is my error then - but I thought that there would be not death during the millennium and that G-d (Jesus Christ) would dwell with man - thus it is called "the second coming". (it was my understanding that the Book of Revelation is not entirely in chronological order.)

The Traveler

It mostly is and in the Millennium life will go on much as it does here except that Jesus willl be with us ruling from Jeruselam and I think David from Zion.

This rule will continue for 1000 years and then there will be a cleansing of the whole earth by fire.

And a general judgment of Angels and those who refused the Gospel.

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

For those who live the millennium, it is a matter of translation from one state to the next. The exciting part, there is no veil between those who live that state and spirits.

[Hemidakota]

Enoch saw God weep and was in awe how God could cry, and what would make Him cry (this isn't the whole account, just a portion to make a point).

Moses 7:

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

God's answer:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

Then, God showed Enoch the sins of the world:

41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

Then God showed Enoch what would dry those tears:

47 And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me.

Moses 7 tells more about Enoch than is offered in the Bible, and what a powerful story it is.

Interesting tidbit we learn from both Enoch and Abraham is the gender of the planet. The question how gender starts may be provided in both books when it comes to the progression principle.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

The Only Souls not saved are those that go to Outer Darkness

[Justice]

Interesting tidbit we learn from both Enoch and Abraham is the gender of the planet. The question how gender starts may be provided in both books when it comes to the progression principle.

The Bible calls the earth "her" many times as well.

Seeds are called "he." That's interesting as well.

[JohnnyRudick]

I guess this is my error then - but I thought that there would be not death during the millennium and that G-d (Jesus Christ) would dwell with man - thus it is called "the second coming". (it was my understanding that the Book of Revelation is not entirely in chronological order.)

The Traveler

Among God's people, those who have the "New Birth" in Jesus Christ will not die during the Millennium. I have no source at this time I just know it from past study. You may find it on your own if you would like.

I will just say, believe me or not, that the :Born Again" will not die. But they will be changed (Can't remember when they will be changed) "Translated" and will not taste death during this thousand years and I believe forever as they will be "caught up with the Lord while the earth is "changed" (Baptism of Fire?) for Eternity.

I can explain more if you like I just wish I could remember my source for this info:confused:

Bro. Rudick