The Holy Spirit and Orthodox Christianity

[bytor2112]

Living in the Bible belt provides ample opportunity to converse with non-members, primarily Southern Baptist. I have observed that when we speak of "feeling" the Spirit, they really don't have a clue what we are talking about. They believe that after being "saved" or born again that the Holy Spirit dwells with in them.

They mention the Spirit often, but when I have asked questions about the spirit, I have been told that you can't feel the Spirit or you don't feel different after you have been saved.....you just are and have to believe that he is there.

I would be interested in hearing non-members comment on their beliefs about the Holy Spirit.

[DigitalShadow]

I am a non-member, probably not the kind that you want to hear from, but I'm bored at the moment so I'll throw in my opinion anyway.

In my opinion, whether you are told you will feel the spirit and then feel something or you are told you just need to accept something and then see tiny miracles and signs once you accept it, either way it could be simply confirmation bias (you expect something to happen so you are actively looking for things that could be interpreted as what you are looking for), or truly divine signs that you have chosen the right path. Either way it is still faith at the core and at some point you simply have to either believe on faith or not believe.

I chose not to believe for many personal reasons, but I also do not believe that anyone else is wrong for believing in something. My best guess when it comes to religion is "I don't know" and I'll freely admit that. From this limited human perspective, experiences, thoughts, feelings, and the chemical cocktail of hormones in our brains come together to uniquely distort our perspectives making it difficult if not impossible to know anything as absolute truth.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if any of what I recognize as the Holy Spirit has anything to do with "absolute" truth. I feel guided or chastised or taught by a feeling outside of myself. I feel comfort or sometimes a confirmation of a truth or a perspective on truth. The guidance I get is rather nebulous at times. I find it takes faith to understand and even more faith to follow.

I am surprised a bit to hear that other churches don't see the HG as a guide. Maybe that is just because I have been taught about the process since I was small and I take it for granted a bit. Is this an exclusively LDS belief?

[prisonchaplain]

Bytor, as FYI, Southern Baptists have gone through a few waves of fundamentalism in the last few decades. The majority are opposed to women in pastoral ministry, and to charismatic experience. Yet each local congregation is sovereign. So, there are Baptist female pastors, and there are "baptiscostals." Not many, but some. Those opposed have purged the ranks wherever they could--at Baptist sponsored universities, and amongst their fulltime missionaries, since these hire nationally, rather than by church.

So...many many Baptists would be loathe to speak of "feeling the Spirit," or "being led by the Spirit." They might be seen as sympathetic to the charismatic movement if they did. GASP! Additionally, because Baptists are very loyal to the Bible, it seems that some leaders believe that experience, like the heart, can mislead. Only the Bible is objective. So such subjective measures as "feeling the Spirit," or, "This is how God speaks to me," strikes such folk as dangerous.

So...it's the B I B L E, yes that's the book for me, I stand alone on the word of God, the B I B L E. Of course, like any faith group, there are many exceptions. And again, for the most part, Baptists are loyal to their local church, not the national agencies. Such a huge movement is bound to have a variety of attitudes.

You've probably figured by now that we pentecostals and charismatics struggle not against feeling or being led by the Spirit. :-)

[DigitalShadow]

I don't know if any of what I recognize as the Holy Spirit has anything to do with "absolute" truth. I feel guided or chastised or taught by a feeling outside of myself. I feel comfort or sometimes a confirmation of a truth or a perspective on truth. The guidance I get is rather nebulous at times. I find it takes faith to understand and even more faith to follow.

That's my point. Either way it is firmly rooted in faith, whether you "feel" the holy spirit guiding you or simply accept that its there.

[the Ogre]

baptiscostals

What a cool word. Thank you PC.

[AnthonyB]

bytor2112,

I actually curently attend what PC would call a "bapticostal" church. (Been there for 12 years and member for 10.)

So being led by the spirit is a vital part of Christianity to me. Feeling the inner promtping and for want of a better phrase the "inner burning" of conviction seems normal.

For me any inner prompting must be measured against the rule of scripture.

To quote a Steve Taylor song....

"So you say it's of the devil and we've got no choice

Because you heard a revelation from the "still small voice?"

If the Bible doesn't back it seems quite clear

Perhaps it was the devil who whispered in your ear?"

To use a clear cut example....

If someone comes to you and said the Holy Spirit was leading them to commit adultery, since the bible forbids adultery in the strongest terms, you can be sure that it isn't the Holy Spirit who is leading them.

Yes part of the answer is to know the Spirit well enough to discern the difference. But I think it is even more telling that our Lord when tempted in the wilderness (even when Satan used scripture) was so well immersed in God's word that He could see how Satan was misusing scripture and quoted scripture to correct Satan mistranslation.

[rameumptom]

I wasn't looking for a testimony, when mine occurred at the age of 16. I was invited to play Church basketball by a friend. The bishop asked to talk with me in his office. I didn't know then what was happening, but now know that the Spirit was so thick in his office, you could have cut it with a knife. I was changed immediately, and haven't looked back.

I lived in the deep South for almost 20 years (Alabama, Mississippi, Texas), and can say that the Southern Baptists do not believe (for the most part) in the gifts of the Spirit. Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, etc., do believe in the spirit working within people.

Most charismatics also believe that the Bible is not perfect, whereas most Southern Baptists believe it is without flaw. I think this makes for a major difference in the way Christians view the gifts of the Spirit. Some think that since the Bible is perfect and complete, there cannot be anymore gifts. Such are the Church of Christ and many Baptists. Meanwhile, I find charismatics more open to considering interpretations of the Bible, and considering that not all therein is perfection. Inspired? Yes. Perfect? No.

And this then causes Mormons to be more like charismatics than the Baptists. Although, for some reason we've tried cozying up to these since the 1980s, when they only want us for our Republican vote. I think we'll find more and more LDS leaving the ranks of the hard-liners who do not appreciate us, and find company with those who appreciate us more, even with our differences (like PC).

As it is, I just finished some work travel, where I was traveling with a co-worker who is Assemblies of God. We found much in common in our faiths, and were able to be respectful of the differences. I've never had that experience with an active Southern Baptist.

[AnthonyB]

I grew up in a Church of Christ that was about evenly splitt between cessationists and charismatic inclined people. Why I'm not a cessationist....

1) When Pauil talks about "gifts" ceasing when the "perfection" comes, I can't see that the bible is "perfection" in the sense of that verse. The textual issues of the NT alone make that hard for me to swallow. 1 Cor 13:8-12

2) God has Paul spend a number of chapters writting instructions about how to use and not abuse spiritual gifts. If the writting of those instructions was to bring about the end of those gifts, it leaves us with a number of chapters of scripture with limited benefit. If God intended that the writting of the NT would cause a cessation in charismatic gifts then why write those chapters or at least God could have had them excluded from scripture (We appear not to have every letter Paul may have written. It makes God look like He didn't know what He was going to do.

3) I can see how in Acts a number of the major outpourings of the Holy Spirit match big moments that are significant changes in the Church. Pentecost is the beginning, allowing Samaritans in was significant and so was Gentiles entering the church. So some argue that spirit outpourings were restricted to special events that required specail markings. The problem with that is I'm not convinced that the entry of some disciples of John really makes the grade and the outpourings of the spirit that occurred in the early Jerusalem church after Pentecost which weren't really attached to any major events.

Edited May 21, 2009 by AnthonyB

[Moksha]

I would assume there are three usages of Orthodox at play:

1. The Orthodox Church (big O).

2. Creedal Christianity as orthodox. Although some creedal groups adherents would not be recognized as orthodox by other creedal groups adherents.

3. Christianity without "enhancements" as orthodox.

[dazed-and-confused]

well, here goes....this may raise the ire of some here.......too bad.......i dont believe that ANY religion has a MONOPOLY on HF or HG.......there are hindus and buddhists and baptists and whatever, all capable of spiritual experience according to their own systems......the "language" of the SPIRIT goes far beyond our puny understanding.....so then, it might come down to who wants to portray the most dramatic theatrical role, if you will, and show us all what great and devout followers they all are.......and yes, that was MY great dramatic role.....lol

[Jim108]

Living in the Bible belt provides ample opportunity to converse with non-members, primarily Southern Baptist. I have observed that when we speak of "feeling" the Spirit, they really don't have a clue what we are talking about. They believe that after being "saved" or born again that the Holy Spirit dwells with in them.

They mention the Spirit often, but when I have asked questions about the spirit, I have been told that you can't feel the Spirit or you don't feel different after you have been saved.....you just are and have to believe that he is there.

I would be interested in hearing non-members comment on their beliefs about the Holy Spirit.

Yes, you do know the spirit is there. You are a different person when the spirit enters. You think on different terms. The spirit guides and helps you do Gods will. I don't know much about religion, but I do know what it is like to be born again. Peace, love and forgiveness now dwells inside me. Thats it. The spirit brings those things too. I can rest in Jesus. I have faith in what Jesus teaches us and I know I can count on it. My life is no longer mine. I hope this helps.

[rameumptom]

Yes, you do know the spirit is there. You are a different person when the spirit enters. You think on different terms. The spirit guides and helps you do Gods will. I don't know much about religion, but I do know what it is like to be born again. Peace, love and forgiveness now dwells inside me. Thats it. The spirit brings those things too. I can rest in Jesus. I have faith in what Jesus teaches us and I know I can count on it. My life is no longer mine. I hope this helps.

But aren't peace and love emotions? How can the Baptists or others disbelieve that the Holy Spirit affects us emotionally, and then state that it brings peace and love into one's life? It confuses me.

But then I'm easily confused.

[rameumptom]

well, here goes....this may raise the ire of some here.......too bad.......i dont believe that ANY religion has a MONOPOLY on HF or HG.......there are hindus and buddhists and baptists and whatever, all capable of spiritual experience according to their own systems......the "language" of the SPIRIT goes far beyond our puny understanding.....so then, it might come down to who wants to portray the most dramatic theatrical role, if you will, and show us all what great and devout followers they all are.......and yes, that was MY great dramatic role.....lol

Doesn't raise my ire. Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to every nation, tongue and people the amount of truth and light they are prepared to receive. If a group are ready to have spiritual experiences to their own level, far be it for me to deny them that wonderful experience. And in time, perhaps those gifts and blessings will lead them to higher truths and light. This is my own desire for me, as well for those around me.

[rameumptom]

I grew up in a Church of Christ that was about evenly splitt between cessationists and charismatic inclined people. Why I'm not a cessationist....

1) When Pauil talks about "gifts" ceasing when the "perfection" comes, I can't see that the bible is "perfection" in the sense of that verse. The textual issues of the NT alone make that hard for me to swallow. 1 Cor 13:8-12

Rameumptom: I agree. The Bible is neither perfect nor complete. LDS believe it to be the word of God, insofar as it is translated correctly. Currently, I'm reading Prof Bart Ehrman's book, Jesus Interrupted, which discusses many conflicting issues in the New Testament. I've read several others of his books, and those of others, who show that we do not always have the original writings. Paul disagrees with Paul (or at least books with Paul's name on them). Differing Creation stories. Differing Nativity stories. Etc. One thing is certain for me, there are patterns in the Bible that we can find and should be able to follow with faith. One of those is a pattern of prophets and apostles leading people with the priesthood power of God.

2) God has Paul spend a number of chapters writting [sic] instructions about how to use and not abuse spiritual gifts. If the writting [sic] of those instructions was to bring about the end of those gifts, it leaves us with a number of chapters of scripture with limited benefit. If God intended that the writting [sic] of the NT would cause a cessation in charismatic gifts then why write those chapters or at least God could have had them excluded from scripture (We appear not to have every letter Paul may have written. It makes God look like He didn't know what He was going to do.

Rameumptom: Sad, but true. Many limit what God can do by their creeds and beliefs. God cannot give us new revelation. God cannot give us modern prophets and apostles. God cannot do many things. Instead, we should study the Bible to see what God CAN do. If God can perform ancient miracles through holy men, why not now?

3) I can see how in Acts a number of the major outpourings of the Holy Spirit match big moments that are significant changes in the Church. Pentecost is the beginning, allowing Samaritans in was significant and so was Gentiles entering the church. So some argue that spirit outpourings were restricted to special events that required specail markings. The problem with that is I'm not convinced that the entry of some disciples of John really makes the grade and the outpourings of the spirit that occurred in the early Jerusalem church after Pentecost which weren't really attached to any major events.

Rameumptom: We must remember that Acts is just a few chapters that are covering a whole lot of ground. It mostly discusses Paul's travels. It does not detail the missionary travels of the 12 apostles or others. I would think that major events would bring forth a very large outpouring of spiritual gifts. However, when in the history within the Bible were the people bereft of miracles, power, and gifts? Only in times of disbelief and sin were these blessings removed. Moroni warns us that if the time comes that the gifts of the Spirit, healings, miracles and angelic visitations do not occur, it is because of man's unbelief. And wo to us if we ever arrive to that point (Moroni 7, 10).

So, I totally agree with your points. I do feel closer to charismatic Christian religions than to those who deny the gifts of the Spirit. The angel told the apostle John that the "testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev 19:10). Given this point, if a person denies prophecy, can that person really have a testimony of Jesus?

[prisonchaplain]

well, here goes....this may raise the ire of some here.......too bad.......i dont believe that ANY religion has a MONOPOLY on HF or HG.......there are hindus and buddhists and baptists and whatever, all capable of spiritual experience according to their own systems......the "language" of the SPIRIT goes far beyond our puny understanding.....so then, it might come down to who wants to portray the most dramatic theatrical role, if you will, and show us all what great and devout followers they all are.......and yes, that was MY great dramatic role.....lol

Was it not President Hinckley that encouraged all people of good will (presumably from all faith groups) to bring the good they had to the Church. I took it to mean, for example, if a Pentecostal brought a special awareness of the presence of the Holy Spirit, such would not be rejected, but incorporated into the local ward, and ultimately bring added blessing to the Restoration.

In the same vein, my church would welcomes hardworking tithers any day!

[christianguy]

yes, the Holy Spirit is real, and Yes you can feel it... It's God in You! That's the bottom line, imagine that, God In You! It's His spirit in you..... The Holy Spirit can do great things...Apostles performed miracles via the Holy Spirit, after all.. we cant do miracles by ourselves. It enabled the early Church to speak in tongues, as some people today still possess that gift.

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit....