The worst sins

[Traveler]

Faded, thank you for this post, you are correct about blasphemy. It can not be forgiven.

Could you define blasphemy? It would seem to me that true blasphemy against the Holy Ghost could only be committed by someone that have had their sins washed away by Christ only to recommit such sins.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

. . . It's probably watered down 'because it's for kids', yes? I would suggest that we do our youth a disservice by not talking about reality. Consider for a moment the kid who is currently being sexually abused by an older sibling or maybe a father. That kid comes to seminary to learn about right and wrong, and lo and behold, finds that sexual abuse isn't even on this list. Everyone is bickering about whether jaywalking or skipping church is the worst sin. We have failed in a very basic, foundational way with this kid.

We fool ourselves if we think our youth are not aware of drugs, violence, sex, rape, tyranny, murder, and many other forms of "for mature audience only" sins. And if we don't talk about such things at church or at home, then a smart kid learns to place church and home in the "useless waste of my time" category . . .

LM:

Good rant. The original quiz did include rape, sin against the H-ly Gh-st, murder, adultery, robbery, and homosexuality (though written in a more kid friendly way). None of those even made it into the top three. The winner and runners-up for worst sin as picked by Utah Seminary kids in the 1980s are listed in my quiz in as kid-friendly a way as possible (BTW: no-one as yet has picked number one, but numbers two and three have been picked -- so, good on growing up).

Late Edit: Sorry all, number one has been picked, number has not been, and number three is tied for first so far.

Edited May 21, 2009 by the Ogre

[Faded]

LM:

Good rant. The original quiz did include rape, sin against the H-ly Gh-st, murder, adultery, robbery, and homosexuality (though written in a more kid friendly way). None of those even made it into the top three. The winner and runners-up for worst sin as picked by Utah Seminary kids in the 1980s are listed in my quiz in as kid-friendly a way as possible (BTW: no-one as yet has picked number one, but numbers two and three have been picked -- so, good on growing up).

Late Edit: Sorry all, number one has been picked, number has not been, and number three is tied for first so far.

My spider-sense is tingling and it's telling me that the winner was: "Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs."

You must include the full list of them later in the thread. I'm finding this highly amusing.

[the Ogre]

My spider-sense is tingling and it's telling me that the winner was: "Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs."

Right on. Your spider-sense is amazing. Can you climb walls too:D:D?

[Faded]

Right on. Your spider-sense is amazing. Can you climb walls too:D:D?

My super-powers are temporarily on the fritz due to this thought absolutely blowing my mind.

So these Seminary kids put, ""Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs." as worse than rape? Wow!! :eek:

[the Ogre]

My super-powers are temporarily on the fritz due to this thought absolutely blowing my mind.

So these Seminary kids put, ""Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs." as worse than rape? Wow!! :eek:

Pretty sad. I do not have the original questions or how I answered them. The survey went for a few pages, so the surveyors were quite good at focusing accuracy and what was really sinful to a 1980s teen-ager. I however have the categories with correct-answers scribbled in pasted in my old seminary scriptures.

Here are the categories that they tested for: Adultery, Bearing false witness, Disrespecting parents, Envy, Homosexuality, Idolatry, Immodesty, Incest, Insults, Lewdness, Lying, Murder, Over-eating, Pride, Profanity, Rape, Sabbath observance, Sin against the H-ly Gh-st, Unchaste behavior, and Word of Wisdom violations.

I found this during a FHE lesson I gave before Chr-stmas. I think the church has come a long way from the naive methodologies of the past. If I remember right, some of the kids didn't even know what the primary sins were, except murder but since none of us committed it, why would it be important (if a tree in the woods etc etc etc).

Mind-blowing, but I wonder how kids today would fare.

Late edit: the top five answers were 1. Word of Wisdom violations, 2. Profanity, 3. Bearing false witness, 4. Murder, and 5. Pride.

Edited May 23, 2009 by the Ogre

[Faded]

I think it's a survey that would be worthy of rewrapping and redoing. It would at least be interesting to see if we've improved at educating our youth on the truly serious sins. Seriously, murder came in 4th place?? Crazy. And rape didn't even crack the top 5.

[HEthePrimate]

Goodness, I'm torn between spreading rumors and putting people down! But I'd say those two are the worst on your list.

HEP

[Edited to add the following] I'll add the long makeout/necking/petting sessions and make it a "Top Three" list of worst sins on the list. Sorry I'm indecisive, but I have a hard time ranking sins like this. :?

Edited May 21, 2009 by HEthePrimate

[HEthePrimate]

Yeah, I think the church is depending on youth leaders a bit more than they are comfortable with. I remember going over it with my kids when the book first came out. When they "got it", they explained it to the other youth to the consternation of some of those leaders.

LOL! I can just imagine how the leaders felt upon hearing your kids were explaining those things to other kids. But if they're not going to explain themselves, they can't really blame the kids, now can they?

HEP

[Faded]

I think that the interesting part is that there are correct answers to this and they are spelled out by the Lord in Scripture. The whole idea is to package them in typical "making excuses" models for pursuing sins. The real point of the survey would have been "leading up" sins because they are the little lies that people, especially youth, can use to lead up to greater mistakes. It's actually all a very clever ploy and it more accurately demonstrates what values the youth will struggle with the most. Based on the fact that sexual sin lead-up, and even rape did not make it into the top 5, one might assume that the youth taking the survey would be highly susceptible to all types o sexual sin because obviously they take things that lead to it very lightly.

So a typical teenage Latter Day Saint from the group would probably avoid drinking and smoking quite effectively, but when he gets his girlfriend pregnant, that would seem like a very small victory indeed.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Faded

[ADoyle90815]

I definitely think spreading rumors is the worst sin, especially when it's hurtful to the person or the family. An example of this is saying that someone is gay because they're still unmarried at the age of 30, when that person hasn't found the right person of the opposite gender yet. Another example would be if someone died of terminal cancer, but a neighbor spreading the rumor that the individual died of a drug overdose.

Edited May 21, 2009 by ADoyle90815

[Jim108]

Could you define blasphemy? It would seem to me that true blasphemy against the Holy Ghost could only be committed by someone that have had their sins washed away by Christ only to recommit such sins.

The Traveler

To me, blasphemy is the sin of ones fall from faith. In other words if you accept Jesus into your heart and get to know him personally and then you walk away and deny Him then you have committed blasphemy. I am not sure if I am saying it right. If anyone can add to this go ahead.

[the Ogre]

To me, blasphemy is the sin of ones fall from faith. In other words if you accept Jesus into your heart and get to know him personally and then you walk away and deny Him then you have committed blasphemy. I am not sure if I am saying it right. If anyone can add to this go ahead.

I understand how you are defining it and I have heard others say something similar. I think this is one of those cases where Latter-day saints believe differently. There are plenty of members who have "left" the church and those who have been "excommunicated". We do not equate "excommunication" or "leaving the fold" with unforgivable sin except where someone has had the ultimate witness of J-sus. What I mean is to actually see H-m in H-s glory and have the H-ly Gh-st witness the event. Very few people have this. The New Testament shows John the Baptist's witness. If he denied this witness, then he would be guilty of "Sins against the H-ly Gh-st", but he never did, so he's got it made.

[Traveler]

To me, blasphemy is the sin of ones fall from faith. In other words if you accept Jesus into your heart and get to know him personally and then you walk away and deny Him then you have committed blasphemy. I am not sure if I am saying it right. If anyone can add to this go ahead.

I think I agree with you - at least in part. You have said something here that I am not sure I understand.

get to know him personally

What does it mean to know him personally? I have lived with my wife for 35 years and I think I know her personally. I know what she likes to eat, what color her eyes are and lot of things about her that other that know of her do not know. Aside from what is written in scripture what personal things do you know about Jesus?

One other thing - since one can believe in Jesus and fall then you agree that believing in Jesus is not really enough?

The Traveler

Edited May 21, 2009 by Traveler

[Jim108]

When I first prayed to Jesus to let Him know that I believe in Him, it was at that moment that the Spirit came into me. Since that moment I have been able to get to know Jesus better. (He already knew everything about me) It gets very personal. My faith grows each and every day. Now imagine what would happen if I should walk away.

[the Ogre]

When I first prayed to Jesus to let Him know that I believe in Him, it was at that moment that the Spirit came into me. Since that moment I have been able to get to know Jesus better. (He already knew everything about me) It gets very personal. My faith grows each and every day. Now imagine what would happen if I should walk away.

Jim:

I can understand what you are saying. I cannot deny the testimony that I have, when I was converted (LDS for Saved) I felt nothing like I have never felt before. That feeling is still in my heart and has grown over the years. Now, what if that spirit turned into an actual vision where I saw J-sus? Not only that, what if a person came up to me and said: that is J-sus the son of Mary, the S-n of G-d? That would be way more than the feeling when the spirit washes over you, that is seeing G-d with your own eyes. That cannot be denied, but what if you did. That then denial is "sin against the H-ly Gh-st and that, according to LDS doctrine, cannot be denied.

I hope this helps. I appreciate your posts.

Aaron the Ogre

[martybess]

Would not sexual sins be much harder to overcome and would dive the spirit away completely? Backbiting is not a temple rec question but morality is.

[Moksha]

Would not sexual sins be much harder to overcome and would dive the spirit away completely? Backbiting is not a temple rec question but morality is.

Are you suggesting we have somehow narrowed morality to only sexual issues?

[fish4kitty]

I went back and read some of the previous posts. Sin is sin no matter the order. The greats sin is the one not noticed and unconfessed. Whether it be because of ignorance or becoming to callused by lifes dealings.

Sexual sin may very well be the hardest due to the fact that you have a hard time forgiving yourself. Most people keep beating themselves up instead of leaving it at Jesus' feet.

[martybess]

Are you suggesting we have somehow narrowed morality to only sexual issues?

Sorry will rephrase that.

Sexual Immorality is deadly! It's taking down so many these days!

[martybess]

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, “Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?” Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we're liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

I agree but one must be careful with the above for the right reasons. We must be careful that we do not get caught in the self. If we say I’m going to be gorgeous and fabulous. The light frightens us because we then have to do what we hear in our heads and we don’t want to. What do we hear in our heads? “Forget yourself”.

Fixating on our personal progress makes what really matters go out of focus. There's nothing wrong with goals so long as we don't pursue them to prove we're something that we're not.

Preoccupation with personal progress in such matters usually indicates that we are not making much progress.

"What, then, do we focus on when living in a self-forgetful and generous way, if not a goal? Part of the answer is this. We do not think of ourselves as "a force on the move" toward some important objective. Instead, we feel still, inwardly still.

Ask yourself, Who is the person I really need to be? A being who can come into existence only by determined, gritty effort? I think on reflection you will answer, No, the person I need to be is who I am already—or more accurately, who I will be if I cease trying to display myself as worthy and acceptable and thus make myself into a grotesque distortion of who I really am.

Still is just the right way to be.

You rise in the morning to go about your day. You remember a friend who has troubles. You don't quibble with yourself about whether to call her; you don't write a reminder on your Palm Pilot or in your planner to make the call tomorrow. You just call. Simple.

Your friend is appreciative. Even over the phone there's a warmth between the two of you that you don't recognize till later. But you laugh. You feel an easiness during the conversation, brief though it is, that nudges open the portals of the day. The way forward seems more warmly lit and inviting than usual.

Your spouse isn't up yet. You leave an encouraging note and a chocolate you brought home from work for just this purpose. Easy. There is no "do gooder'' feeling about any of this.

At work, you talk with people about the interests you share. Word comes down that the project you've put your heart into for many months might be canceled. Others in your office wring their hands. The engines of speculation start churning out analyses of malice or mischief on higher levels. Past grievances are resurrected and amplified. Somehow, you don't feel flustered. Your inner stillness can't be touched by this. One way or the other, everything will work out.

Shall we call this stillness progress? I think not. You have made no progress, because there is no progress to be made. Being fully human, fully who you are, is not an achievement. It's more like a homecoming."

-Marty

[Faded]

Would not sexual sins be much harder to overcome and would dive the spirit away completely? Backbiting is not a temple rec question but morality is.

I think this nails the whole point that the original survey was all about. Even the partial survey posted by Ogre shows some clever play on words.

We know from Scripture that there is a certain order of seriousness to sins, as follows: (see Alma 39:3-5)

1.) Denying the Holy Ghost

2.) Murder

3.) Adultery and Fornication

From there on, we do not have any passages of scripture specifically stating that "SinX > SinY". But these top three are a very big deal in the eyes of God.

"Necking or very long make-out sessions with light petting." --> So what is this really looking for? It's looking for people who are willing to come as close to fornication and adultery as possible without actually crossing the line. Youth that are willing to flirt with disaster in terms of sexual sins are going to see this one as "no big deal" or at least "not all THAT bad." It's all about where it leads to though. The sexual drive we all have leads us to make little excuses to go "just a little further" and this tends to progress all the way to actually having sex. That is why I would say this is the most dangerous and serious item on the list.

"Spreading rumors about others in the community." Simply put, bearing false witness. Certainly a very big deal, but it has no direct association with any of the big three.

"Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs." --> Translation: Is it okay to flirt with danger and addiction when it comes to the Word of Wisdom? Again, not a good thing, but not directly associated with the big three.

"Wearing immodest and revealing clothing." --> Translation: Are you willing to advertise yourself sexually? Are you willing to use your body and implied sexuality to get noticed? This also is a lead-up to one of the big three sins. It is not nearly as likely to lead to Fornication/Adultery as the first question and dressing immodestly does not always lead directly to sexual sin.

"Using some profanity, but nothing really major." --> Clever downplay in wording. Do you think its okay to cuss and swear? Again, not one of the big three.

"Putting down others. You know, teasing others or pointing out nerds & weirdos." --> Being mean to other people. Yeah, it's bad. It also strikes a chord with almost anyone because it is so upsetting to experience and to see happening. It is not tied to one of the big three sins though. Looking beyond that, the damage caused from teasing and putting people down is pretty severe, but the victim will recover from it. It's not on par with Sexual Sin which cannot ever be completely recovered from. You can't become a virgin again once you lose your virginity, etc.

Skipping some meetings in church, mostly because the teacher is boring." --> Again, clever downplay in words. Attending all you meetings is what is expected of us and routinely skipping them certainly is a big deal. Not tied to one of the big three.

"Telling jokes with sexual innuendo, but nothing dirty." --> Making light of sexual things certainly is a very big deal. Unfortunately, it's managed to become a social norm in our society. This downplays the sacredness of sex and sexual interactions and cheapens it. It certainly is a contributing factor in making people think that sexual sin "isn't all that bad." It's nowhere near as dangerous and direct as the first one though.

To sum up, I think that even this survey shows a troubling trend. God has revealed in no uncertain terms that sexual sin is a HUGE deal to Him. Partnering with our Heavenly Father in creating new bodies for his children, and literally partnering with our God in Heaven in creating another of his greatest creation of all. That's a very big deal. Society and culture have numbed our senses with regard to sexual sins, but we have it from God Himself that only Murder and Denying the Holy Ghost are worse sins in His eyes.

For that reason:

Are you suggesting we have somehow narrowed morality to only sexual issues?

In terms of this survey, yes I think we should. No I don't think we have yet. Picking a "worst" does not imply that you think all others are irrelevant.

P.S.: Ogre, if you can find that survey or any part of it, I'd LOVE to see it.

[Traveler]

When I first prayed to Jesus to let Him know that I believe in Him, it was at that moment that the Spirit came into me. Since that moment I have been able to get to know Jesus better. (He already knew everything about me) It gets very personal. My faith grows each and every day. Now imagine what would happen if I should walk away.

Thank you for your response. I see many people claim to have a personal relationship with Christ and I still do not know what that means or even if it is real or backed by scriptures in the way it is described. I have done many things seeking divine spiritual enlightenment (for example I spent over a month {40 days} fasting and praying in the southwestern deserts – eating and living on only what G-d would provide). It was an incredible spiritual experience but I am not sure that I can honestly testify that it or any other was a personal experience on par with Peter, James and John; who by-the-way never referred to their experience with Christ as personal.

I have many questions about what is meant by “personal”. For example is it possible for someone to have what you call a personal experience with G-d and know nothing and therefore believe nothing about Jesus Christ? Also is it possible that two individuals that have a personal relationship with Christ ever differ on any point of understanding of his doctrine? They could simply talk to him together to solve any differences; which are done on special occasions, by covenant, by some LDS but I have yet to hear it described as personal.

The main reason I have this concern is because I do not believe Christianity or a Christian relationship to G-d is to be practiced on a “personal” level. I believe it is to be understood and believed as families and communities – or as stated in scripture to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It is not about individuals or their wants and desires even to be saved or their personal eternal salvation. It is not, in my mind, a salvation for me and a religion suited for me, kind of thing. It is not to teach a person to turn in on themselves and satisfy personal wants, needs, desires or wishes. It is about forgetting about all personal stuff and serving G-d and our fellow man.

When someone says “Personal” relationship with G-d it is a big red flag to me that they have connected to something very contrary to the basic nature of what I understand a Christian is all about.

The Traveler

[Jim108]

Thank you for your response. I see many people claim to have a personal relationship with Christ and I still do not know what that means or even if it is real or backed by scriptures in the way it is described. I have done many things seeking divine spiritual enlightenment (for example I spent over a month {40 days} fasting and praying in the southwestern deserts – eating and living on only what G-d would provide). It was an incredible spiritual experience but I am not sure that I can honestly testify that it or any other was a personal experience on par with Peter, James and John; who by-the-way never referred to their experience with Christ as personal.

I have many questions about what is meant by “personal”. For example is it possible for someone to have what you call a personal experience with G-d and know nothing and therefore believe nothing about Jesus Christ? Also is it possible that two individuals that have a personal relationship with Christ ever differ on any point of understanding of his doctrine? They could simply talk to him together to solve any differences; which are done on special occasions, by covenant, by some LDS but I have yet to hear it described as personal.

The main reason I have this concern is because I do not believe Christianity or a Christian relationship to G-d is to be practiced on a “personal” level. I believe it is to be understood and believed as families and communities – or as stated in scripture to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It is not about individuals or their wants and desires even to be saved or their personal eternal salvation. It is not, in my mind, a salvation for me and a religion suited for me, kind of thing. It is not to teach a person to turn in on themselves and satisfy personal wants, needs, desires or wishes. It is about forgetting about all personal stuff and serving G-d and our fellow man.

When someone says “Personal” relationship with G-d it is a big red flag to me that they have connected to something very contrary to the basic nature of what I understand a Christian is all about.

The Traveler

In John 17:22-26 Jesus said

"And the glory which thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one;

I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

O righteous Father although the world has not know Thee yet I have known Thee; and these have known that Thou didst send Me;

and I have made Thy name known to them and will make it known that the love wherewith Thou didst love Me may be in them and I in them."

Traveler, this is right from the mouth of Jesus. It does not get more personal than that. Jesus is in me. I can feel his love and forgiveness. Each new day I can feel Him steering me into the direction He wants. My life is his, my works are His works. Earthly things like money, power and possessions no longer interest me. This is His work on me.

The big red flag you see may be a reluctance of wanting to surrender to Jesus. Sometimes our love for earthly things get in the way of what is most important, our walk with Jesus. You see, all along I have been saying that all you need is Jesus and it is true. Religion is earthly and man is full of sin. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Please do not get upset with the following. Is your religion standing between you and Jesus? ...and I don't just talk about the LDS religion, but all christian religions. Jesus is the truth. I can guarantee you this. You will not go wrong if you choose to walk with Jesus. Your walk is true, correct, loving and forgiving and no man can find fault in that. EVER

[sensibility]

Jim, I completely agree with you. I feel a relationship with Christ is a deeply personal and individual matter. That doesn't mean that religion or worship of Christ is self-interested or self-centred; it means that Christianity must be approached and learned by every individual. We all need to come to recognise our Master and what His sacrifice means to our personal salvation, just as our Master knows and calls us personally by name, and comes after the one lost, even if the ninety and nine remain faithful.

I did a quick search on lds.org for 'personal relationship', and found this very moving talk by President Faust: A Personal Relationship with the Savior. I've included one lovely quote from it below (emphasis added):

During the years of my life, and often in my present calling, and especially during a recent Gethsemane, I have gone to my knees with a humble spirit to the only place I could for help. I often went in agony of spirit, earnestly pleading with God to sustain me in the work I have come to appreciate more than life itself. I have, on occasion, felt the terrible aloneness of the wounds of the heart, of the sweet agony, the buffetings of Satan, and the encircling warm comfort of the Spirit of the Master.

I have also felt the crushing burden, the self-doubts of inadequacy and unworthiness, the fleeting feeling of being forsaken, then of being reinforced an hundredfold. I have climbed a spiritual Mount Sinai dozens of times seeking to communicate and to receive instructions. It has been as though I have struggled up an almost real Mount of Transfiguration and upon occasion felt great strength and power in the presence of the Divine. A special sacred feeling has been a sustaining influence and often a close companion.

It is my testimony that we are facing difficult times. We must be courageously obedient. My witness is that we will be called upon to prove our spiritual stamina, for the days ahead will be filled with affliction and difficulty. But with the assuring comfort of a personal relationship with the Savior, we will be given a calming courage. From the Divine so near we will receive the quiet assurance:

“My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

“And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.” (D&C 121:7–8.)

Edited May 22, 2009 by sensibility