The worst sins

[bytor2112]

Jim, I completely agree with you. I feel a relationship with Christ is a deeply personal and individual matter. That doesn't mean that religion or worship of Christ is self-interested or self-centred; it means that Christianity must be approached and learned by every individual. We all need to come to recognise our Master and what His sacrifice means to our personal salvation, just as our Master knows and calls us personally by name, and comes after the one lost, even if the ninety and nine remain faithful.

I did a quick search on lds.org for 'personal relationship', and found this very moving talk by President Faust: A Personal Relationship with the Savior. I've included one lovely quote from it below (emphasis added):

Your quote from President Faust is very moving. I listen to it often on the Special Witnesses of Christ dvd....very moving. In 1982 Apostle Bruce R McConkie addressed several issues at a BYU fireside, among the issues were the desire that many have to seek a special relationship with Christ. He quotes as follows:

Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence--quote: "Because the Savior is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his Son." Unquote. This is plain, sectarian non-sense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father and to him only. They do not go through Christ or the Blessed Virgin or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary. We are entitled to come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

And I rather suppose that He who sitteth upon the throne will chose his own ways to answer his children, and that they are numerous. Perfect prayer is addressed to the Father, in the name of the Son; it is uttered by the power of the Holy Ghost; and it is answered in whatever way seems proper by Him whose ear is attuned to the needs of his children. Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ. It will seem to them as though I am speaking out against mother love, or Americanism, or the little red school house. But I am not. There is a fine line here over which true worshippers will not step. It is true that there may, with propriety, be a special relationship with a wife, with children, with friends, with teachers, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of the sky and the lilies of the valley. But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason.

Stay in the Mainstream of the Church

The proper course for all of us is to stay in the mainstream of the Church. This is the Lord's Church, and it is led by the spirit of inspiration, and the practice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scripture.

And you have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4:14), you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with the Lord.

You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate and intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior.

Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead.

I am well aware that some who have prayed for endless hours feel they have a special and personal relationship with Christ that they never had before. I wonder if this is any or much different, however, from the feelings of fanatical sectarians who with glassy eyes and fiery tongues assure us they have been saved by grace and are assured of a place with the Lord in a heavenly abode, when in fact they have never even received the fullness of the gospel.

I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.

Let me remind you to stay in the course charted by the Church. It is the Lord's Church, and he will not permit it to be led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers we will pursue the course that is pleasing to the Lord. Would it be amiss if I reminded you that Jesus maintained a reserve between him and his disciples and that he did not allow them the same intimacy with him that they had with each other. This was particularly true after his resurrection.

For instance, when Mary Magdalene, in a great outpouring of love and devotion, sought to embrace the Risen Lord, her hands were stayed. "Touch me not," he said. Between her and him, no matter the degree of their love, there was a line over which she could not pass.

And yet, almost immediately thereafter, a whole group of faithful women held that same Lord by the feet, and we cannot doubt bathed his wounded feet with their tears. It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper, and one of worshipful adoration, which yet maintains the required reserve between us and Him who has bought us with his blood.

Now I sincerely hope that no one will imagine that I have in the slightest degree downgraded the Lord Jesus in the scheme of things. I have not done so. As far as I know there is not a man on earth who thinks more highly of him than I do. It just may be that I have preached more sermons, taught more doctrine, and written more words about the Lord Jesus Christ than any man now living. I have ten large volumes in print, seven of which deal almost entirely with Christ, and the other three with him and his doctrines. I do not suppose that what I have here said will be an end to controversy or to the spread of false views and doctrines. The devil is not dead and he delights in controversy. But you have been warned, and you have heard the true doctrine taught. Those who need to study the matter further would do well to get and study a copy of what I have said when it is published by the Brigham Young University.

Let us then end on the note of testimony and of prayer. I bear record of the divine Sonship of Him of whom we have this day spoken. He is or should be our best friend through whom we can be reconciled to God.

And I pray that the true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which as the Book of Mormon says is one God, may be found in the hearts and souls of all of us.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

Edited May 22, 2009 by bytor2112

[Traveler]

In John 17:22-26 Jesus said

"And the glory which thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one;

I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

O righteous Father although the world has not know Thee yet I have known Thee; and these have known that Thou didst send Me;

and I have made Thy name known to them and will make it known that the love wherewith Thou didst love Me may be in them and I in them."

Traveler, this is right from the mouth of Jesus. It does not get more personal than that. Jesus is in me. I can feel his love and forgiveness. Each new day I can feel Him steering me into the direction He wants. My life is his, my works are His works. Earthly things like money, power and possessions no longer interest me. This is His work on me.

The big red flag you see may be a reluctance of wanting to surrender to Jesus. Sometimes our love for earthly things get in the way of what is most important, our walk with Jesus. You see, all along I have been saying that all you need is Jesus and it is true. Religion is earthly and man is full of sin. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Please do not get upset with the following. Is your religion standing between you and Jesus? ...and I don't just talk about the LDS religion, but all christian religions. Jesus is the truth. I can guarantee you this. You will not go wrong if you choose to walk with Jesus. Your walk is true, correct, loving and forgiving and no man can find fault in that. EVER

How do you surrender to Jesus when you hold on to what is "personal" to you? Can you give me an example of a "personal" commandment that does not involve others?

I believe Jesus said that we must lose ourself (all that is personal) in order to find one's self in Christ. If the personal relationship is a focus on self you have not surrendered to Jesus. As long as it is for you and what you get and your salvation and your blessings - How is it you have surrendered anything?

It is not just giving up earthly things it is about giving the only thing to Christ you really have - your "personal" self. It is not about getting anything to walk with Christ it is about giving as we walk with other. If we are focused on what is personal to us we do not walk with Christ. If we do not have loving and compassionate relationships with others - it does not matter if we have a personal relationship or not with G-d.

I believe the true relationship with Christ is loving, compassionate, carring, honest, truthful and many other things that are far more important than a "personal" relationship.

The Traveler

Edited May 22, 2009 by Traveler

[Jim108]

How do you surrender to Jesus when you hold on to what is "personal" to you? Can you give me an example of a "personal" commandment that does not involve others?

I believe Jesus said that we must lose ourself (all that is personal) in order to find one's self in Christ. If the personal relationship is a focus on self you have not surrendered to Jesus. As long as it is for you and what you get and your salvation and your blessings - How is it you have surrendered anything?

It is not just giving up earthly things it is about giving the only thing to Christ you really have - your "personal" self. It is not about getting anything to walk with Christ it is about giving as we walk with other. If we are focused on what is personal to us we do not walk with Christ. If we do not have loving and compassionate relationships with others - it does not matter if we have a personal relationship or not with G-d.

I believe the true relationship with Christ is loving, compassionate, carring, honest, truthful and many other things that are far more important than a "personal" relationship.

The Traveler

You give everything to Jesus and it starts with yourself. As far as earthly things, here is an example. I used to buy most anything I wanted without thinking twice. Now, when I buy I ask "how does this help the kingdom of God"? Do I really need this? Would it be better spent with the church, charity or maybe a needy neighbor.

The personal relationship is all about giving and works and love and forgiveness. It is all those things that you discount. It is of God and it is perfect.

I have opened to you what I believe and I respect your side. I hope one day you can feel what I feel. It is true and real. Jesus in me.

[sensibility]

Your quote from President Faust is very moving. I listen to it often on the Special Witnesses of Christ dvd....very moving. In 1982 Apostle Bruce R McConkie addressed several issues at a BYU fireside, among the issues were the desire that many have to seek a special relationship with Christ.

I think Brother Bruce is there discussing something quite different to President Faust; it seems to me that he's talking about people who feel they're uniquely close to Christ, that they have an unusual relationship with Him, to such a degree that it disrupts their understanding of the Father's place in creation and salvation. That's obvious heresy and entirely different to the idea that we should have an appreciation for the role Christ plays in saving us personally. Language is fantastically vague sometimes.

[Faded]

Traveler, I don't see where you're going with this, but if you are this interested in discussing what "a personal relationship with Christ" is, then I would suggest you open a new thread for that purpose. It's effectively hijacking this thread and dragging the whole thing WAAAY off topic. It's a worthwhile topic though. Ideally, the entirety of your back and forth conversation on the matter should be moved out of this thread, but then I'm not a Moderator.

Frankly, my own experience lines up better with what Jim is saying. Call me crazy.

[martybess]

But I do think that God views some sins as worse than others.

Yes I think so myself. I can recall times in my life when the spirit left me sooooo fast that I almost became dazed. There are sins that will take one down in a hurry!!!!

Sorry but I must say that society really needs to start addressing porn and what it’s doing. The thought came to me that it’s the new addiction like alcohol back in the earlier part century. Alcohol would make husbands disappear for days come home with no money or life. Beating the wife’s and abusing children because of the rage that raged within from guilt and things, willing to do anything to get a fix. It destroyed families and helpfulness spouses were left with no way out. Then society got on board and said this is a disease and started looking at ways to treat it effectively. This practice still is evolving with new techniques and drugs. The church knows what porn does and has adopted the programs use to treat other illnesses but society hasn’t. It might not be as apparent yet but it’s doing more damage than the other addictions. The church (or should I say wives) need to start viewing this differently. If they do husbands will open up to it and come out of the closet just like they did with alcohol. Husbands are afraid of losing everything and are not getting the help they so desperately need. Once it’s viewed differently (from wives and family) the tide will be stemmed. (I’m speaking hear from the view of a priesthood leader trying to help those addicted). Sorry for the rambling.

[Vort]

We know from Scripture that there is a certain order of seriousness to sins, as follows: (see Alma 39:3-5)

1.) Denying the Holy Ghost

2.) Murder

3.) Adultery and Fornication

From there on, we do not have any passages of scripture specifically stating that "SinX > SinY". But these top three are a very big deal in the eyes of God.

Faded,

I appreciate your clear explanation of what you believe and why you believe it.

I look at things much differently. I don't see God as having a grand checklist of sins ranked by evilness, checking us against the Sin List to see how badly we have done. I suspect -- really, I believe -- that certain actions are considered sinful because they destroy what we are trying to accomplish.

What are we trying to accomplish? Judging by God's self-proclaimed work and glory:

• Immortality
• Eternal life

Immortality is already guaranteed us, so all we need to worry about is eternal life.

There are (at least) two aspects to gaining eternal life:

• Individual: We must be the kind of person who wants to live a celestial life.
• Communal: Eternal life is family (and by extension, community) life, so we must learn to deal with and prosper in extended communities.

The first of these points is obvious; I doubt that any Latter-day Saint on this list would argue against it. The second is not so obvious, but just as real. The Savior has counseled us many times that we must be one. He has gone so far as to say if we are not one, we are not his.

This "oneness", this community sense that says that I will sacrifice of myself so that we as a group can prosper, is central to successful and joyful marriage and family life. I am convinced it is also central to exalted life, both now and in the hereafter. (So be polite and don't ask me why I fail to practice this oneness more often on this list.)

Given this view, we can apply it to the OP's list to try and ascertain which are the most damaging sins:

• Necking or very long make-out sessions with light petting.

  Certainly a foolish thing to do, exhibiting a complete lack of mature understanding about intersexual relationships. Potentially very damaging to individuals; probably not a huge immediate threat to communities. All in all, my Bad-O-Meter rates this at 7 devilhorns (out of a possible 10).

• Spreading rumors about others in the community.

  Ooooh. That's very bad. If you know the rumor is false, this rates 8 devilhorns. Even if you don't know it to be false, I'd still rate this one a strong 7. Very bad indeed. (I personally voted for this one.)

• Smoking and drinking just a tiny bit, but definitely not doing drugs.

  Affects personal worthiness to some degree, especially if you're knowingly breaking your baptismal covenants. Not really a destroyer of society. I'd give this one 3 devilhorns.

• Wearing immodest and revealing clothing.

  Callow and foolish. Depending on the clothing and circumstances (and assuming we're not talking about nudity or its equivalent), somewhere between 3 and 7 devilhorns.

• Using some profanity, but nothing really major.

  Shame on you. Clean up your language. That will be 1 devilhorn.

• Putting down others. You know, teasing others or pointing out nerds & weirdos.

  Depends on the circumstances, how nasty the teasing and ostricizing. I'd say 5 devilhorns, fewer if it's done without malice and more if it's really nasty.

• Skipping some meetings in church, mostly because the teacher is boring.

  Bad precedent with potentially devastating long-term consequences. I'd give it a present value of 2 or 3 devilhorns with an asterisk to note that it could lead to worse things.

• Telling jokes with sexual innuendo, but nothing dirty.

  Most sexual jokes are "dirty" in that they portray sex as something other than a loving and Godly act between a husband and wife. Such jokes are pretty rancid. I'd give them 5 devilhorns.

As for getting our underwear in a knot because a bunch of teenage kids thought that smoking was the worst sin, I think it's time to chill out. Teenagers don't have a mature view of things and, almost by definition, exhibit poor (i.e. immature) judgment. They have been taught from their childhood, and rightly so, that smoking and drinking is bad; just because they look almost like adults doesn't mean they think almost like adults. Their thought processes are often still quite childish. No earthshattering news there, and no reason for chest-beating or bemoaning the callowness of the upcoming generation.

[martybess]

Necking or very long make-out sessions with light petting. probably not a huge immediate threat to communities.

As for getting our underwear in a knot because a bunch of teenage kids thought that smoking was the worst sin, I think it's time to chill out. Teenagers don't have a mature view of things and, almost by definition, exhibit poor (i.e. immature) judgment. They have been taught from their childhood, and rightly so, that smoking and drinking is bad; just because they look almost like adults doesn't mean they think almost like adults. Their thought processes are often still quite childish. No earthshattering news there, and no reason for chest-beating or bemoaning the callowness of the upcoming generation.

Probably not a huge immediate threat to communities. I would disagree, cant get much higher.

Smoking is a question asked in a recommend interview, spreading rumors is not.

Smoking is extremely dangerous! Here again is an addiction that is hard to overcome. Why do you think it keeps you out of the temple?

I'm really surprised that immorality ranks third in the poll.

[Vort]

I'm really surprised that immorality ranks third in the poll.

As someone already pointed out, all of these things are immoral. Sexual immorality is indeed a pernicious evil, but do you really believe that a non-coital "make-out" experience is more damaging than spreading malicious gossip about others or openly mocking or ostracizing someone because s/he is not "cool" enough? I'm not saying that "necking" and "petting" (who came up with these terms, anyway?) are to be taken lightly; I'm saying that we need to take gossip and personal putdowns much more seriously.

[the Ogre]

Smoking is a question asked in a recommend interview, spreading rumors is not.

Actually, I can think of a question in the temple recommend interview that applies: "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?" Edited May 23, 2009 by the Ogre

[Faded]

As for getting our underwear in a knot because a bunch of teenage kids thought that smoking was the worst sin, I think it's time to chill out. Teenagers don't have a mature view of things and, almost by definition, exhibit poor (i.e. immature) judgment. They have been taught from their childhood, and rightly so, that smoking and drinking is bad; just because they look almost like adults doesn't mean they think almost like adults. Their thought processes are often still quite childish. No earthshattering news there, and no reason for chest-beating or bemoaning the callowness of the upcoming generation.

If a bunch of Teenagers rated Smoking and Drinking as worse sins than Murder and Rape, then it at least demonstrates the failure of the Church Educational System to communicate proper perspective of the severity of Rape and Murder, both from God's perspective as well as Temporal perspective. This could be better viewed as a report card on the CES: How well do the youth understand and what values have we instilled in them? If Murder and Rape are not pretty high up on anyone's list, regardless of age, then I think it represents a distorted sense of morality. No doubt, it offered the CES some data that they could use to do better in the future. Since that was in the 1980's then it's really got nothing to do with the "up and coming generation." That generation already up and came.

Ogre did a good job of eliminating the ones that would be too obvious to any adult. I think what is left could go any direction you like without being earthshattering or terrible. But it is quite interesting to see what adults rate as the worst.

[martybess]

Actually, I think a question in the temple recommend interview that applies: "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?"

Yes Ogre that does apply and dishonesty is bad as is all sin. I'm just thinking along the lines of the spirit withdrawing and what sins brings that about instantly.

[the Ogre]

. . . I think what is left could go any direction you like without being earthshattering or terrible. But it is quite interesting to see what adults rate as the worst.

Thank you and I agree, the responses have been quite interesting. I haven't voted (I think all of them are bad enough -- besides, I wrote the survey). The one category that the church did not test and that I was tempted to include was vanity ("There is nothing wrong with spending hours in front of the mirror and in the closet trying on outfits as long as you look your best."), but I decided against it was too gender specific in its interpretation, so I didn't bother and most likely, the CES surveyors felt the same way.

[chiccam]

You've got something there Ogre. Vanity was the demise of Dorian Gray.

I disagree that it's a gender specific trait.