Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[aj4u]

Most tell me it does not, but some say it does or it may. So I did my own research on the topic that has led to many questions that no one has been able to answer for me. Instead, I have seen a thread closed, and I have been accused of being a troll, hardening my heart, being insincere, of not interpreting Scripture correctly and you name it.

I don't have a problem with new truth or restored truth, but it has to pass certain criteria; for instance, if anything clashes with he Bible, that sends up a red flag for me, but if I can see that it clarifies and confirms or reinforces Bible truth i am for it 100%. No one should be able to judge someone about his or her motive. Paul was dead set against Christianity until the Lord dealt with him and he became one of the best apologists in the Bible.

I have spoken to Mormons on a one to one and they haven't been able to answer it my questions.

Some questions for starters: I know some things, but then I find out that I misunderstand a lot of what Mormons believe. I am trying to learn what it is they actually believe about the Bible and why they feel it was restored. What happened to the Bible that it needed restored? I never heard of such a thing.

I have a book of Mormon, and I have read some of it. I was told to pray sincerely about whether it be true or not, but for me to pray and ask God whether these things be so is a tall order for me because I wouldn't know how to do it sincerely, sincerely speaking. For example, I am already a born-again Christian. Why would I want to trade the eternal security or life I already have for a religion that says I cannot know if I have it right now. It would be like a Muslim telling me to pray and ask God if Muhammad is His prophet or the Koran is God's accurate word for today, but I would have to do it sincerely. If I could do it sincerely, than I am sure I will get a sign that Muhammad is god's prophet, but which god? Do you understand where I am coming from? Could you pray a prayer like that sincerely?

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs. We are dealing with supernatural forces. Do you realize or believe that too? Paul even warns that we should beware and consider accursed any that bring another gospel than that which we have heard already. Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy? I am sincere, and I think these questions are valid and constructive and need to be answered in order for me to make an informed decision that concerns my eternal soul! I wish you the best, but I would like these answered. PS. Do you believe the KJV is translated correctly? If not, do you know where there might be translation errors in that version? Take you time and answer them one at a time, but I have other questions, but this is a good place to start. Thanks, Aj4u

Edited May 25, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

I have spoken to Mormons on a one to one and they haven't been able to answer it my questions.

No, I think they have failed to support your positions. After reading your posts for weeks, I think you will never be satisfied with the LDS position.

I think it is important for you to know that because we believe in modern revelation and the importance of a Living Prophet, we do not need to agree with any interpretation of the Bible other than that of G-d's as given by revelation to the Living Prophets.

No one needs to justify anything to you.

Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy?

YES!!!!!!!!! How often do people need to tell you.

Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Then you are free to condemn us. The world is free with agency, but I do not think anyone needs to agree with you.

Do you believe the KJV is translated correctly? If not, do you know where there might be translation errors in that version?

I think for starters you need to look at the Joseph Smith Translation of the King James Version of the Holy Bible. We call it the JST. It is footnoted in the Standard Works and other sections are given in the Index. I recommend getting the Standard Works (not the internet version, but a hardcopy version available at any church distribution center). Edited May 25, 2009 by the Ogre

[prospectmom]

Aj4u

You did a fine job of starting this thread... i hope some of my learned brothers ans sisters can answer your questions. I have a feeling you ability to understand or belive what we do will be hampered by your intense and understandable desire to not be led astray........

The Bible contains translation errors in the natural process of being handed down and translated ... I believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. The bible itself has contradictions ... I think you even pointed them out or another poster ...... about the birth and life of Jesus....... ......

What are some of you exact questions??? I can see where your coming from as I have followed your posts ..... So I will answer as I can and research and hope a more learned member can answer also

[robspectre]

I was already well versed and had a good understanding of the Bible before I ever joined the Church. It was the Bible that converted me to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Book of Mormon (although it helped). Your saying that our idea of prayer is somehow flawed (using your Islam statement) is flawed in itself. If a Muslim was to ask God the Eternal Father if the Bible was true and he got a wittness of the Holy Ghost that it was his word, would he be somehow flawed for asking? If you did the same with the BOM would you be flawed? I believe if you had a stronger testamony of prayer you would not ask such questions and make the statements you have above.

I notice how often a "Christian" tells us that our God is not the REALY REAL God or that Our Jesus isn't the Really real one. Your statement says the same. What God you ask? I know you know better. Who is the Father of the Christ? You know better.

As for a different Gospel Paul was preaching about.....well where do you stand? Is the Catholic right? The Baptist? The Methodist etc...? They all preach a different Gospel, but because they are mainstream its ok. In fact, I often notice how they can all buddy up together when it comes to this argument. They often say,"we all believe in the same Gospel , but celebrate /worship is different manners." If that is the case, why are we not allowed the same. Don't say the Bible says, because we use the Bible as well. In fact, you guys don't even use the same Bibles anyways. The Catholics have 14 more books than do the protestants... which brings up the other argument about us adding to the Bible by recognizing the BOM. Well, if thats the case, how come protestants have taken away and nothing is said? The King James Bible of 1611 DID include the Apocrypha and now it does not. Hmmmm?

Your logic is flawed because you don't fully understand prayer. Don't deny the Holy Ghost. For by the Holy Ghost you can know the truth of all things.

[prospectmom]

And this is why when non members post questions they get disallusioned ( sp) with the church. Try to answer specific questions. Please do not attack his belief system..... He is honestly and sincerly asking questions and it would be nice if some of our members would answer them in the same manor they are

asked....

Guys do not go on the attack....... teach..... help him understand.... give him comparing scriptures between the Bible and BOM ....... then if he does not agree at least we tried and he can see where we are coming from......

[the Ogre]

Guys do not go on the attack....... teach..... help him understand.... give him comparing scriptures between the Bible and BOM ....... then if he does not agree at least we tried and he can see where we are coming from......

Mom:

I'm listening to ya. He has time, but I doubt his sincerity, honesty, and willingness to learn. He has never shown this in the past.

We'll see.

Aaron the Ogre

[hordak]

It really comes down to a belief in modern day prophecy (IMO).

Yes LDS doctrine can clash with the bible. This is because of the belief new prophecy trumps old.

It is similar to how the New Testament clashes with the old.

[prisonchaplain]

Many Christians and Jews throughout history have claimed visions from God or his messengers. Angels on Assignment, by Rev. Roland Buck was popular in the late 1970s. Heaven is So Real! by Choo Thomas, came out recently. Both authors claimed visitations from angels, and visions from God. Personally, I gained fresh encouragement from both, but no revolutionary doctrine.

Joseph Smith's revelations were/are far more controversial. He introduced radically different doctrines, and declared the standing church to be in apostasy, and without spiritual authority to conduct vital sacraments. As with the less known authors I mentioned above, Joseph Smith's offering to the world will continue to be assessed by various means. Some will accept, many won't.

For us evangelicals, the Bible, as well as our history of teachings and interpretations largely inform our understanding. Additionally, it's always wise to seek the direction of the Holy Spirit in all spiritual inquiry.

[ztodd]

Mom:

I'm listening to ya. He has time, but I doubt his sincerity, honesty, and willingness to learn. He has never shown this in the past.

We'll see.

Aaron the Ogre

Please don't do that Ogre- don't label him. Don't be part of what's cutting him off from being more open to us.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Aj4u.

I can't answer your questions for you. But, this isn't through any fault of my own, but it's just an artifact of the way you've set up the question. Look at this:

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs.

With this statement, you have rendered it literally impossible to discern truth from error.

My only response can be, "Why do you consider the Bible immune to this fault, but not the Book of Mormon or the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita?"

[the Ogre]

Please don't do that Ogre- don't label him. Don't be part of what's cutting him off from being more open to us.

I'll give him time. Have no fear. He has to show that he is listening and dialoging with us. Did you note PC's post above. He was very clever in opposing both Joseph Smith and aj4u. PrisonChaplain is an honest, intelligent, and welcome discursive partner because he listens.

I have hope for AJ, but . . .

[Maya]

I am sorry if I may sound hars to you, but English is not my language and I am her to answer not to smaltalk you round.

Why mormons can not or dont want to answer is that maybe what you ask is not a doctorin, but speculation. Our doctorin is very simple and often people are making it more difficult. With my own words .. partly: We believe in one God and His son Jesus Christ who dies for us so we could be resaurected and he also suffered for our sins so we could come back to our Hevenly Father.

Something to think before asking: YouTube - Top 5 Arguments Evangelical Anti-Mormons Can't Use Against the Book of Mormon (Part 1) (all 4 parts)

No BoM do not contradict Bible. I red it looking for any contradiction and I was familiar with the Bible from before and my granddat was Dean of theology, so I think I should know something of the Bible. I red NT first time as 14. No I did nto study Teology.

Ok so you do not understand how we can say that the Bible has mistakes? How many biblical researchers have you red? I dont care are they hindu, jewish, catholic, protestants or even LDS.. how about you? Is there any group whos scolars you would not believe in? Ok maybe LDS? Maybe it is news to you but NON LDS cscholars ahve SHOWN mistakes in the Bible and its translations. If you dont believe me ... go in the library and read about the newest Biblical study. Here is a Dr Shirts, who has red and who concludes from verious usually NON LDS sauces , listen to him adn get suprised!

It is good you are sincere and say you sincerely can not read the book objectively. In thsi case I actually suggest that you leave it alone. you leave mormonism alone and live your life... maybe somne day you will want to read the book, but not yet. you see... we all are goind forward on teh stairs of knowledge. You can not step up if your starecase is not secure if you do nto understand every step, no jumping or you fall and hurt yourself. There once was a lady who died but was sent back. She told that Jesus said that we have so many religions bevcause we all are on a different step in our progress. We can not give you the belief you have to be on the right step to reach out for it. If not your study is no use.

Yes we believe Devil is very much real and active trying to get everyone away from God.

Wea re NOt asking you to ignore Paul, but to see that the gospel was NOT Jesus Christ gospel that was sperad in world after apostles death. An this begins scolars of all kinds of religions to see and find out from the archeology. Even so much that some Christian religions are closing they ears and eyes and denying archeology! Dont you think that this 14 year old boy might have been sincere?

KJV??? Do you know the Bible is translateed in hundreds of different languages! ALL Of them have their own mistakes + the mistakes that crept in it before its translation by hands of copyists, tarnaslaters and even some high Chuirch persons who did nto like something in it and tok it away. You know the whole Bible was put together from thousands of small books and waht did they do to the rest? They burned them.. as they decided that what was in the other books was NOT relevant... and who gave them the right to decide what was relevant... a nonmember cesar, who was p... angry for them fighting about some stupid religion! He did not want any fighting in his kingdom!

One of the mistakes in an African language was in "our father thou areth in heven... and tahnkyou for my everydays cowdirt..." They had no word for bread.. so they tought they were talking about cowdirt.... after all cowdirt is highly important to then as a thing to burn instead of wood.

Yes Bible has got may mistakes over the years ... and besides WE DO believ the BIBLE AS IT CAME OUT from the original witters. And we DO believe that he bible is Gods words to us as long as it is correctly translated. Bible was not even one book before after a long time

[Maya]

This is hopeless I started when NO answers were written there and now I am on scond page I think I crab in my cave to cry....

[the Ogre]

This is hopeless I started when NO answers were written there and now I am on scond page I think I crab in my cave to cry....

Yup, I think this one is doomed to be a fast-moving thread.

[ztodd]

...

I don't have a problem with new truth or restored truth, but it has to pass certain criteria; for instance, if anything clashes with he Bible, that sends up a red flag for me, but if I can see that it clarifies and confirms or reinforces Bible truth i am for it 100%.

Let me ask you aj4u, how do you know the bible is true? Or why do you believe that it is true? How do you know how to interpret the scriptures that you read? I mean, what does it all comes down to? Why are you able to place such faith in a book that talks about things that you don't have any physical evidence for? I mean things like the miracles of Jesus, and his dying on the cross, and his role as Savior and Redeemer of the world. This all requires faith to believe in it, but where does your faith come from? Why do you have your faith?

If you explore these questions, perhaps you can start to understand a bit more where we get our faith from that we have in our modern prophets, and in the Book of Mormon.

...

I am trying to learn what it is they actually believe about the Bible and why they feel it was restored. What happened to the Bible that it needed restored? I never heard of such a thing.

There was a general apostacy, or falling away from the truth, that happened after the 12 apostles of Jesus died / were killed. The people were not ready to hold on to the truth of the gospel. The authority to officiate in the ordinances of salvation from taken away from the earth. For over a thousand years, the true church and kingdom of God that Jesus set up when he was here, was no longer here. The people of the earth were left to do the best they could with what they had.

It was during this period- the Dark Ages- when many plain and precious truths were taken away from the bible.

There was a need for a restoration.

"After centuries of spiritual darkness, a restoration of truth was needed. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored on the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. God has promised it will never be taken from His children again. " - The Great Apostasy

...

I have a book of Mormon, and I have read some of it. I was told to pray sincerely about whether it be true or not, but for me to pray and ask God whether these things be so is a tall order for me because I wouldn't know how to do it sincerely, sincerely speaking. For example, I am already a born-again Christian. Why would I want to trade the eternal security or life I already have for a religion that says I cannot know if I have it right now.

I don't think you have to look at it that way. We're not asking you to trade the eternal security or life that you have to come and learn of what we believe. I'm also not sure why you think our religion says that we cannot know if we have eternal life right now? I believe that we can know right now if we are in good standing with God, and ready to be acceptable unto Him.

...

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs. We are dealing with supernatural forces. Do you realize or believe that too?

Yes, we do need to be careful of what voices or signs we pay heed to. Here is the test of how we know what is of God, and what is of the devil-

From Moroni 7 -

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also. 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may cknow good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

...

Paul even warns that we should beware and consider accursed any that bring another gospel than that which we have heard already. Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy?

No, that's not what you should do, but you should always seek for more understanding, even about what Paul was saying here. Do we really preach a different gospel than the one Paul preached? We preach of Jesus Christ- all that we do centers on Him. We "talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." - 2 Nephi 25

[Islander]

I was told to pray sincerely about whether it be true or not, but for me to pray and ask God whether these things be so is a tall order for me because I wouldn't know how to do it sincerely, sincerely speaking. For example, I am already a born-again Christian. Why would I want to trade the eternal security or life I already have for a religion that says I cannot know if I have it right now. Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy? I am sincere, and I think these questions are valid and constructive and need to be answered in order for me to make an informed decision that concerns my eternal soul! I wish you the best, but I would like these answered. PS. Do you believe the KJV is translated correctly? If not, do you know where there might be translation errors in that version? Take you time and answer them one at a time, but I have other questions, but this is a good place to start. Thanks, Aj4u

AJ:

Your reluctance to consider the matter prayerfully and sincerely is more of a psychological barrier than theological one. We are asking you to pray to God, the Eternal Father in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ who is the Savior and Redeemer of ALL mankind if this work is of men or of Him. It will be a sincere prayer to your God and My God, Christ, whose work we do, of whom we prophesy and in whom we trust for salvation and everlasting life. Only He can reveal to you that this is His Church and that He has revealed these things for all who desire to believe and seek the truth.

You have ascertained truth as far as you have been able to understand and receive it. Your spiritual search has led you here and it is not random. Again, if the bible is to be trusted, your situation, your very predicament is found there. At the time of the ministry of the Savior, the religious leaders and most of Israel accused Him of being a sinner, unclean and the devil himself. How can they be so confused, how can they be so blind on the face of so much evidence? Many saw His miracles, they marveled at the fact that a poor peasant from the backwaters of the country would demonstrate such insight into scripture and the Law. But the wisest of the wise knew of the mysterious ways of God and warned against rushing to judgment. Jesus, after all was a poor, uneducated, unimportant Galilean. Other than faith and a witness of the Holy Ghost you would not know about Jesus. We were not there. Billions today do not know about Christ and His salvation.

When they heard that [the witness of the apostles], they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamalie lPaul's teacher some time later, by the way] , a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as aobeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

AJ, 180 years later and 13 million Church members, hundreds of Temples and 60,000 missionaries the world over testify that God has never abandoned His children, that The Savior lives, that this is His Church and He raised up a prophet, a simple, humble boy in the ONLY country in the world where the work could come forth without being smothered by tradition and corrupted doctrine.

I know this to be the absolute truth. I found God and received a witness of Christ's forgiveness not from preacher or teachers of religion, not from books or radio programs. I will not bother you with the details but the choices are simple. You would remain as you are, doubting the truth of which we testify, denying the possibility that God speaks and reveals His will thru prophets today as He did in times of old. Or you can search with all intent and sincerity if what we testify of is true.

If you are not willing then I wish you the very best. You need not worry about me. For I have found truth and salvation in Christ. For He is my Redeemer and I know that on the appointed day I will stand to embrace Him for His love for me and the redemption he offered me.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Islander

[rockwoodchev]

I would like to contribute to the OP and use the exact quotes in Galations that he mentions. I recently taught this exact section in Seminary and used the CES material. After teaching that section, using only the CES material, I think I can clearly say that using that one scripture, that LDS doctrine does indeed contradict the teachings in the New Testament. I have an example here where using the lesson material exactly as provided, it contradicts not only the NT, but actually contradicts itself.

I will try to articulate this as best as I can. I'm sorry I can't direct link to the CES material, but it is behind a username/password combination at ldsces.org that I'm sure I'd get in trouble for if I posted the passwords here.

Here is what occurs in the lesson manual for Galations.

All the following quote sections are directly out of the seminary manual.

What follows is some material in the book of Galatians. The opening page of the lesson material contains this quote:

Theme: Paul was alarmed when he learned that false teachings were creeping into the lives of his Galatian converts. Many had rejected the teachings of the Atonement and reverted to following the law of Moses. Paul wrote to urge the Saints to return to the higher law of the gospel. He taught that works alone are not sufficient for salvation, but that we must rely on our Savior Jesus Christ.

This is followed in the material by this:

Paul was amazed that the Galatian converts were turning away from the living Christ in favor of a dead law. Could they really prefer the bondage of the old law of Moses over the liberty of the new law of Christ?

This is from the KVJ, where the OP used the NIV, but the concept is the same. Then, in the actual text of Galatians are the following versus:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any bother gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So... In my opinion, it is fairly easy to understand this. Paul had done a mission to these people and converted them from Judaism to Christianity. After he left them, many of the people were reverting to the teaching of the Law of Moses as the "other gospel". At this time, there were clearly 2 gospels (or churches in today's terms).

Ok. Everything fine so far, right. No controversy.

Read this explanation by Elder Boyd K. Packer, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve:

“A few weeks ago I was returning from the East with President [Gordon B.] Hinckley. We conversed with a passenger who said something to the effect that all churches lead to heaven. How often have you heard that—the parallel path to heaven philosophy?

“They claim one church is not really better than another, just different. Eventually the paths will converge. One is, therefore, quite as safe in any church as in any other.

“While this seems to be very generous, it just cannot be true.

“. . . Suppose schools were operated on that philosophy, with each discipline a separate path leading to the same diploma. No matter whether you study or not, pass the tests or not, all would be given the same diploma—the one of their choice.

“Without qualifying, one could choose the diploma of an attorney, an engineer, a medical doctor.

“Surely you would not submit yourself to surgery under the hands of a graduate of that kind of school!”

Ask students why the kind of education described would fail to prepare them for their chosen career. Elder Packer concluded:

“But it does not work that way. It cannot work that way—not in education, not in spiritual matters. There are essential ordinances just as there are required courses. There are prescribed standards of worthiness. If we resist them, avoid them, or fail them, we will not enter in with those who complete the course” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1985, 106; or Ensign, Nov. 1985, 82 ).

Testify to your students that there is only one true gospel on the earth that has all the teachings, ordinances, and covenants we need to return to Heavenly Father and live like Him in His kingdom. Tell students that the Apostle Paul understood this doctrine and tried to explain it to the Saints

I just don't see at all that Paul understood that there was one true gospel with all the teachings. He was NOT talking about a Christian church with certain teachings, ordinances, and covenants.... he was talking about CHRIST!!! Simple as that. IMHO, and I fully admit that I may be off, but I don't think that Paul was implying in any way, shape, or form that there was one true Christian church and that church was the one with

all the teachings, ordinances, and covenants

. He was saying, as taught in the material that there were the belief and understandings of the Jews and their traditional religion, or the new concepts and doctrines of Christ. This is clearly a place where LDS doctrine is changing the words of an ancient prophet to serve our own church. Not something that I think was intended.

Now... I need to say also, that the Christian churches that claim that the LDS church is "adding" to the doctrines don't really have it right as well. Paul was teaching "Christ". Simple as that. Teach and believe in Christ and you are following these verses that Paul wrote.

Also, I don't think that Elder Packer gave a very good analogy. Packer's analogy is a strawman. You could easily use the same analogy to support the idea he's opposing. For example, not all college departments teach exactly the same information, in the same way, test the same way, nor require all the same classes, and yet you can still get your medical degree, law degree, etc...and be considered quite competent and pass the boards or whatever. If you make the example ridiculous, yes, then it's easy to see how stupid the idea of "parallel paths" is. But that's not really what Christians, I imagine, think.

Edited May 25, 2009 by rockwoodchev

[ztodd]

I just don't see at all that Paul understood that there was one true gospel with all the teachings. He was NOT talking about a Christian church with certain teachings, ordinances, and covenants.... he was talking about CHRIST!!! Simple as that. IMHO, and I fully admit that I may be off, but I don't think that Paul was implying in any way, shape, or form that there was one true Christian church and that church was the one with "all the teachings, ordinances, and covenants". He was saying, as taught in the material that there were the belief and understandings of the Jews and their traditional religion, or the new concepts and doctrines of Christ. This is clearly a place where LDS doctrine is changing the words of an ancient prophet to serve our own church. Not something that I think was intended.

With all due respect, maybe you are just a little bit off. As a church, we're not changing the words of the prophet; we're just interpreting his words.

Also, I don't think that Elder Packer gave a very good analogy. Packer's analogy is a strawman. You could easily use the same analogy to support the idea he's opposing. For example, not all college departments teach exactly the same information, in the same way, test the same way, nor require all the same classes, and yet you can still get your medical degree, law degree, etc...and be considered quite competent and pass the boards or whatever. If you make the example ridiculous, yes, then it's easy to see how stupid the idea of "parallel paths" is. But that's not really what Christians, I imagine, think.

I dunno- that's what it seems like to me, that a lot of them say as long as you accept Christ then you'll make it.

I would say that in his analogy, when you say different medical colleges can operate a little differently but still give the same medical degree, perhaps you can say that relates to how we have different wards (congregations) in different church buildings that operate in different ways, but are all still part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so they all still carry that proper authority.

[Traveler]

Most tell me it does not, but some say it does or it may. So I did my own research on the topic that has led to many questions that no one has been able to answer for me. Instead, I have seen a thread closed, and I have been accused of being a troll, hardening my heart, being insincere, of not interpreting Scripture correctly and you name it.

I don't have a problem with new truth or restored truth, but it has to pass certain criteria; for instance, if anything clashes with he Bible, that sends up a red flag for me, but if I can see that it clarifies and confirms or reinforces Bible truth i am for it 100%. No one should be able to judge someone about his or her motive. Paul was dead set against Christianity until the Lord dealt with him and he became one of the best apologists in the Bible.

I have spoken to Mormons on a one to one and they haven't been able to answer it my questions.

Some questions for starters: I know some things, but then I find out that I misunderstand a lot of what Mormons believe. I am trying to learn what it is they actually believe about the Bible and why they feel it was restored. What happened to the Bible that it needed restored? I never heard of such a thing.

I have a book of Mormon, and I have read some of it. I was told to pray sincerely about whether it be true or not, but for me to pray and ask God whether these things be so is a tall order for me because I wouldn't know how to do it sincerely, sincerely speaking. For example, I am already a born-again Christian. Why would I want to trade the eternal security or life I already have for a religion that says I cannot know if I have it right now. It would be like a Muslim telling me to pray and ask God if Muhammad is His prophet or the Koran is God's accurate word for today, but I would have to do it sincerely. If I could do it sincerely, than I am sure I will get a sign that Muhammad is god's prophet, but which god? Do you understand where I am coming from? Could you pray a prayer like that sincerely?

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs. We are dealing with supernatural forces. Do you realize or believe that too? Paul even warns that we should beware and consider accursed any that bring another gospel than that which we have heard already. Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom because of the testimony of a 14 year old boy? I am sincere, and I think these questions are valid and constructive and need to be answered in order for me to make an informed decision that concerns my eternal soul! I wish you the best, but I would like these answered. PS. Do you believe the KJV is translated correctly? If not, do you know where there might be translation errors in that version? Take you time and answer them one at a time, but I have other questions, but this is a good place to start. Thanks, Aj4u

There is more diversity among traditional Christians concerning the Bible, the source of the Bible and how the Bible is to be interpreted; then there is in the criticism of Mormon doctrine and the possible diversity from ancient understanding of ancient texts. Most Western Christians are familiar with Catholic and Protestant Christianity as traditions. But they are not as familiar with the varieties of Orthodox, Gnostic and Nestorian Christians of the Mid-East and East that have histories of doctrines and practices that predate the Protestant movements.

The reality is that every LDS doctrine can be interpreted from the ancient Biblical texts and agreed variant readings of such texts that comprise the books that are found in any or all of the Christian traditions still active today. To say that LDS doctrine conflicts with the Bible is both a biased and uninformed opinion based on selective interpretations that in reality are rather narrow recent and limited. In addition we have Jewish traditions and variant readings of both Old and New Testament text – Remember that Jesus and his Apostles (as well as the writers of New Testament texts) were all of Jewish traditions.

If you refuse accept LDS doctrine as possible interpretations of Biblical texts then you are likely wasting our time and efforts as well as your own, insisting something is that we know is diffidently prejudicial and greatly uninformed. Your threads will be quickly locked and no sane LDS will consider an intelligent conversation possible with you. Your interpretations and understanding of ancient Biblical scripture does not come even close to defining very much of the spectrum of Jewish or Christian thinking – so my question is why are you so concerned with LDS?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

......

I cannot be ignorant of the Devil's devices he can appear as an angel of light and impersonate Jesus and or God without any problems to fool the human mind with all kinds of feelings and signs. We are dealing with supernatural forces. Do you realize or believe that too? Paul even warns that we should beware and consider accursed any that bring another gospel than that which we have heard already. Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Are you telling me to ignore Paul's words of wisdom .......

Aj4u

I thought I would ask a question about your understanding of the gospel of Christ and your interpretation of Gal 1:8. If you are reading any published criticism of LDS doctrine I submit that such publication of a contrary gospel is exactly what Paul preached against. Anyone publishing another gospel other than the one they have received – even for criticism is exactly what Paul preached against. Are you among those that Paul condemns?

The Traveler

[Justice]

I don't have a problem with new truth or restored truth, but it has to pass certain criteria; for instance, if anything clashes with he Bible, that sends up a red flag for me, but if I can see that it clarifies and confirms or reinforces Bible truth i am for it 100%.

I think it's time to ask you some questions. Hopefully we can get to the real problem fairly quickly.

Do you think baptism is necessary or optional?

[Justice]

So... In my opinion, it is fairly easy to understand this. Paul had done a mission to these people and converted them from Judaism to Christianity. After he left them, many of the people were reverting to the teaching of the Law of Moses as the "other gospel". At this time, there were clearly 2 gospels (or churches in today's terms).

Ok. Everything fine so far, right. No controversy.

No, not exactly.

This wasn't talking about 2 different gospels or 2 different churches. These were people who converted to Christianity, not people who practiced the Law of Moses. These people practiced the Law of Moses in the past and were converted to the Law of Christ.

If there were 2 different gospels or churches Paul certainly wouldn't have wasted his time writing the "other" church a letter. That was not his jurisdiction. He wrote a letter to 1 location of the church that was having a dispute about what THE church doctrine should be.

Those who were under the Law of Moses (circumcision) before they converted to Christ felt new converts (namely Gentiles--those who were NOT under the Law of Moses) needed to walk the same path through Jewish Law that they did. Or, in short, they felt the new converts needed to be circumcised and make those covenants that were associated, just as they had done. Paul was telling them, NO. As you said, Paul was preaching Christ and His Law, and that it didn't make any difference if a person wanted to be circumcised first. The Law (of Moses or of works) was not what saved them, but the Law of Faith (or of Christ) is what saved them.

That's all this is.

Romans 3 makes this perfectly clear once you understand the Law of Works is the Law of Moses (or of performances or circumcision) and the Law of Faith is the Law of Christ:

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law of Christ or faith did not void the old law, but it fulfilled it. All are justified by Christ (and His Law) and did not have to participate in the old law to be saved, or to be a believer in Christ.

With this understanding it makes the scriptures, the CES manual, and Elder Packer's comments perfectly clear.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Justice

[rockwoodchev]

No, not exactly.

This wasn't talking about 2 different gospels or 2 different churches. These were people who converted to Christianity, not people who practiced the Law of Moses. These people practiced the Law of Moses in the past and were converted to the Law of Christ.

If there were 2 different gospels or churches Paul certainly wouldn't have wasted his time writing the "other" church a letter. That was not his jurisdiction. He wrote a letter to 1 location of the church that was having a dispute about what THE church doctrine should be.

Help me out here. I'm not sure what you mean here. Paul wrote several letters. I agree 100% that he was writing a letter to the people in Galatia and warning them not to go back to the former law. I don't get this above section. Please help clarify. Thanks

Those who were under the Law of Moses (circumcision) before they converted to Christ felt new converts (namely Gentiles--those who were NOT under the Law of Moses) needed to walk the same path through Jewish Law that they did. Or, in short, they felt the new converts needed to be circumcised and make those covenants that were associated, just as they had done. Paul was telling them, NO. As you said, Paul was preaching Christ and His Law, and that it didn't make any difference if a person wanted to be circumcised first. The Law (of Moses or of works) was not what saved them, but the Law of Faith (or of Christ) is what saved them.

I agree with you. It was the old way they have moved away from, and Christ that they were moving to.

That's all this is.

Romans 3 makes this perfectly clear once you understand the Law of Works is the Law of Moses (or of performances or circumcision) and the Law of Faith is the Law of Christ:

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law of Christ or faith did not void the old law, but it fulfilled it. All are justified by Christ (and His Law) and did not have to participate in the old law to be saved, or to be a believer in Christ.

So... I struggle a bit this this. You take material that was written to the Romans and combine it with material written to another group and combine it to make your point. While I agree that this is the only tool that we have to work with, it is in a sense putting our will onto Paul's works and words. I like the way you've explained it though. Nicely done.

With this understanding it makes the scriptures, the CES manual, and Elder Packer's comments perfectly clear.

Sorry, you didn't clear this up in my mind. The CES manual says Don't believe in the old way, but believe in Christ and His way.

Elder Packer says "The LDS Church is the only true church and Paul agrees with me"

That... I don't get and don't agree with. Paul didn't even know about multiple Christian Churches. He certainly didn't know about some of the points made in Elder Packers talk. We have simply taken a section of the Bible and bent it to our own needs.

[rockwoodchev]

I have run into other areas where the two can sometime clash. It is evident in the NT when there are some really interesting doctrine contained in the text, but in the CES material, they will just skip that section. I have not kept track of them, but it isn't very hard to figure them out. It is really weird when there will be 2-3 chapters, lets say on the doctrine of Grace. There is 4 pages of NT verse about how grace will be the only thing we need to save us.

The CES material for the exact same section will have a small 2-3 paragraphs talking about Grace, and then launch into modern day prophets talking about Works, Obedience, Sacrifice, and such. It really is clear that there is a difference between the two "doctrines". By reading the NT, I would say it is split in teaching about Grace vs. Works at a split about 90-10 between the two. LDS teaching is mostly about Works, and a minor bit about Grace. This debate between the two becomes very evident when teaching on a daily basis the NT over a 9 month period.

Only 3 more weeks on the year to go... I love it! Can't wait to get into Revelations. This is my 2nd time to do it. Yup. This is my 5th year of doing early morning....

[aj4u]

There is more diversity among traditional Christians concerning the Bible, the source of the Bible and how the Bible is to be interpreted; then there is in the criticism of Mormon doctrine and the possible diversity from ancient understanding of ancient texts. Most Western Christians are familiar with Catholic and Protestant Christianity as traditions. But they are not as familiar with the varieties of Orthodox, Gnostic and Nestorian Christians of the Mid-East and East that have histories of doctrines and practices that predate the Protestant movements.

The Traveler

Diversity is a good thing. As I do a study of Mormonism, I have come to learn there are different sects within the same religion as well. I was born and raised Catholic and now I am part of the body of Christ in general. I don't go much for demoninational tags. Those that wear them can, but I believe if they go to heaven it will fall off and in hell they will burn off. I don't find diverstity in the essential doctrines of Christianity (in main stream Christianity) but I see liberty in the non-essentials. Any modern day prophet is subject to the already written word. That is why Paul mentions not once but twice in the same paragraph Gal 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemnedWhat gospel is Paul referring to? It is a simply message that we are saved (eternal life) by grace through faith. It is a gift; it is not something we can work for, earn merit by good works or following commands or any laws. Ep 2:8.9. If we attempt to earn or work for our salvation, we will be judged by how well we have kept all the law. If we break just one command we are just as bad off as if we done it all. That is why Paul said I will hear nothing among you save Jesus Christ crucified Ro. 10: 9,10 "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. If we could be saved or gain eternal life by our works we could glory in it and bragg. It is not possible to keep the law in our strength. If we put our faith in baptism and tithings and many other such works, we will be going about to establish a righteousness of our own. This is exactly what Paul was so opposed to. This is not a matter of private interpretaton. This is explicitly what Paul taught by revelation of Jesus Christ and cannot be change by anyone. In fact, Paul said let that person who tells you differently than this be condemned. He said it twice let them be accursed. This is what the gospel is. Baptism is a command that means nothing if we are not born again. It is a marriage to where we are hid in Christ trust in His mercy not in a ritual. Many that are baptised are going to hell because they went down dry sinners and came up wet ones. there has been no change God's grace and our faith has got to be first and foremost. It is Christ who finishes the work He started in us. The battle is the Lord's. He is the good news. We can only work out our salvation if we have received the gift by faith to work out, but it is Him working through us. The labourors labor in vain if the Lord is not building the house. Edited May 26, 2009 by aj4u