Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?

[bmy-]

I don't have one at this moment either but just to keep from rewriting what I have already written I believe this to be the case also.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone will get you into the two lower kingdoms but not the Celestial.

I too wish I could back that one up:confused:

But most Pauline type Christians will get just what they are expecting.

Bro. Rudick

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

[the Ogre]

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

Then you are wrong. Review the Forth Article of Faith.

[MikeUpton]

this thread feels more like a chat room than a forum thread :)

[Justice]

Justice wants you to discuss Baptism. I don't.

I had the impression that baptism would lead to a conclusion.

That's all.

[Justice]

Jesus was baptized to show us the way.

Even just this comment is telling. Have you ever sat and pondered on just these words?

PC, if Jesus "showed us the way" by doing something, it stands to reason He wants everyone to do it. Together with a few statements in the Bible, it is clear baptism is a part of what Jesus showed and told us to do.

There is only one way people reason their way out of it, and that is because they don't understand other aspects of baptism, mainly how does He allow for those who did not have the chance.

Even still, there is no logical way to arrive at the conclusion "you don't have to be baptized."

1) Jesus was baptized

2) Jesus said to be baptized

If we have difficulties undetrstanding how this applies to all, instead of trying to solve the problem for Him, we should follow Him ourselves and let Him worry about the rest. To teach people we don't have to follow His example or do what He said just passes all logic and reason to me.

You seem very intelligent to me. So, how did you get there from here? There aren't any scriptures that even imply we don't have to be baptized. It's just man's attempt to explain other things they can't grasp otherwise.

But, He DID make provisions for those who did not have the chance to be baptized. It's even talked about in the Bible. It's just not clear enough for all to see because it was very sacred, and they didn't talk about it openly.

[Justice]

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

The Celestial Kingdom is very different than the Kingdom of God. I see where it says baptism is required to enter the Kingdom of God.

However, bmy, I'd be curious to see how you arrived at that?

[Hemidakota]

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

Correct..not only Baptism but receiving the Holy Ghost. This is only for the lower level of glory of works that are required. Quoted by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith

[T]he effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence. (The Prophet instructs the Twelve in Nauvoo, June 27, 1839) TPJS:150; HC3:380

[Hemidakota]

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

Correct..not only Baptism but receiving the Holy Ghost. This is only for the lower level of glory of works that are required. Quoted by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith

[T]he effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence. (The Prophet instructs the Twelve in Nauvoo, June 27, 1839) TPJS:150; HC3:380

Jesus, quoted by John

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jesus tells Nicodemus men must be born again) John 3:3-5

[Justice]

Hemi, that is the Kingdom of God, not specifically the Celestial Kingdom. That's the trap many fall into.

Baptism is required to be saved from outer darkness. The Kingdom of God includes the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, as they are kingdoms of glory.

There are other covenants that chart ones path to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Dravin]

Baptism is required to be saved from outer darkness.

Unless I've been snoozing in Gospel Doctrine, outer darkness is where the Sons of Perdition go, so all that is required to be saved from outer darkness is not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost (or however one defines the unpardonable sin).

[the Ogre]

Unless I've been snoozing in Gospel Doctrine, outer darkness is where the Sons of Perdition go, so all that is required to be saved from outer darkness is not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost (or however one defines the unpardonable sin).

An interesting point of fact about the SoP, their level of testimony would generally require that they adhere to all the requirements of the Forth Article of Faith. I bet most of those dudes have been baptized.

[Justice]

Yes, it is my belief that all WILL be baptized anyway. It's what one does with it that matters.

They will be baptized, but those in the Telestial Kingdom will not accept it.

My statement was a trick-statement of sorts. I try to be clear to LDS and non-LDS alike. Sometimes, because of that, smart, attentive people as yourself can catch me in an iffy statement. :)

[bmy-]

Then you are wrong. Review the Forth Article of Faith.

To clarify.. in my eyes baptism and the initial gift of the holy ghost go hand in hand. Which is why it was generally done one after the other.. until recently (as far as i'm aware). Baptism alone is meaningless.. the ordinances are not complete until united.

A truly righteous man has the Gift of the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not it's been given to him. He may not be entitled to it.. but he is certainly blessed by it.

The Celestial Kingdom is very different than the Kingdom of God. I see where it says baptism is required to enter the Kingdom of God.

However, bmy, I'd be curious to see how you arrived at that?

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—"

(D&C 76:51-55)

An interesting point of fact about the SoP, their level of testimony would generally require that they adhere to all the requirements of the Forth Article of Faith. I bet most of those dudes have been baptized.

And then some. The number of people who even have the potential to be 'Sons of Perdition' is incredibly low. If I had to guess.. it would be somewhere below 100.

Edited May 29, 2009 by bmy-

[prisonchaplain]

Even just this comment is telling. Have you ever sat and pondered on just these words?

PC, if Jesus "showed us the way" by doing something, it stands to reason He wants everyone to do it. Together with a few statements in the Bible, it is clear baptism is a part of what Jesus showed and told us to do.

There is only one way people reason their way out of it, and that is because they don't understand other aspects of baptism, mainly how does He allow for those who did not have the chance.

Even still, there is no logical way to arrive at the conclusion "you don't have to be baptized."

1) Jesus was baptized

2) Jesus said to be baptized

If we have difficulties undetrstanding how this applies to all, instead of trying to solve the problem for Him, we should follow Him ourselves and let Him worry about the rest. To teach people we don't have to follow His example or do what He said just passes all logic and reason to me.

You seem very intelligent to me. So, how did you get there from here? There aren't any scriptures that even imply we don't have to be baptized. It's just man's attempt to explain other things they can't grasp otherwise.

But, He DID make provisions for those who did not have the chance to be baptized. It's even talked about in the Bible. It's just not clear enough for all to see because it was very sacred, and they didn't talk about it openly.

If the standard of entry into the Kingdom of Heaven with glorification (we'll leave what that entails for another thread) the baptism is but one of many prerequisites.

1. Loving your enemies

2. Forgiving everyone who's wronged you

3. Being perfect

4. Not judging

I could go on. My point is, yes of course Jesus wants us to be baptized. And, there is a sense in which, when Christians attending chapel ask, "Do I have to . . . " be it "get baptized" or "go to church," my answer is, "Yes!" Jesus said it, he showed it, and so yes, you have to do it.

But salvation is not carried in the acts of our obedience. Conversion happens when we repent and receive. What follows is a life of obedience. And a very early act of submission is water baptism.

But to turn this point on its head, do you really want me to say to the tearful soul who's just prayed for Jesus to forgive her and come into her heart, "NOW...if we can just get you properly baptized, you'll be okay with God. Please, don't get killed between now and your scheduled baptism, cause I'd hate to see you miss out."

Oh I know...there's always baptism for the dead--especially in this type of case. But, really. Baptism is necessary because it's obedience, not because its waters carry forgiveness and redemption. The ordinance is a public recognition and celebration of what God has done. And yes, it does provide a spiritual seal to the deal. I'm not cavalier about it. But, neither do I feel an urgency to rush people into the tank for fear that if they don't get wet before some freak accident, they'll not be welcomed by the Father.

[the Ogre]

A truly righteous man has the Gift of the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not it's been given to him. He may not be entitled to it.. but he is certainly blessed by it.

I know you understand, but I want to emphasize that "first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (AoF#4)"

Before we even get to baptism, there must be faith. To a non-member this means being saved. After that we have the further steps to follow.

We do these things because we want to, but we also do them because they are the will of the L-rd. We do not do these things to make ourselves look better or to inflate our importance before the eyes of the world, but to simply fulfill the will of the L-rd.

I want to focus on this aspect of faith. To many faith means to be made perfect in Chr-st. A type of spiritual baptism. When I went through the conversion process (and yes I was born in the church), I had to surrender all my sins like King Laman did. I let them go. They washed out of me before I went to the bishop to begin the repentance process.

A new member goes through this spiritual-baptism, this first of saving-ordinances, then they go on to repentance, baptism, and the gift of the H-ly Gh-st. Fulfilling the other ordinances are a joy, because they are already perfect in Chr-st and complete the following ordinances because they love the L-rd so much they would do anything for H-m.

[Justice]

But salvation is not carried in the acts of our obedience. Conversion happens when we repent and receive. What follows is a life of obedience. And a very early act of submission is water baptism.

PC, salvation is not in baptism, but obedience IS. What do you think the difference is between one who chooses to be baptized and one who doesn't? Does it not show the difference in their level of belief and trust in Christ? Isn't that what we've been commanded to do, believe in Christ? How can we claim to believe in Christ if we think what He says is optional?

Christ, not needing baptism, made Himself obedient, how much more do we need to be obedient to it?

Don't loose sight of the fact that Jesus commanded it and was Himself baptized to show us the way.

We show we are willing to keep His commandments by DOING them, not by saying they are not necessary.

I wish I knew how to relate my feelings on this matter to you in a personal way. These words are getting in my way.

PC, the Book of Mormon is even more clear.

[the Ogre]

PC and Justice:

Baptism and other ordinances are not by which we are saved. The jews could not be saved because of their adherence to the law, other wise the celestial kingdom will be the habitation of lawyers leaving the poets and artists on the curb. We receive salvation only through the Grace of G-d (Eph 2.8-10). We complete works because we love the L-rd and they are a perfect type of worship. When I am serving the L-rd I am offering up the sacrifices of my heart. I am giving up my pride by doing the work of the L-rd (Eph 3.7).

[prisonchaplain]

The irony is agree with both of you. I've said so repeatedly. However, one phrase--and I know it's in Scripture--"baptism for the remission of sins..." How do you take that? Because this is the crux of my concern. My sins are forgiven because I have faith and repent of them. To suggest that my sins are not remitted UNTIL I am water baptized, imho, is wrong. On the other hand, it might well be appropriate to say that the ordinance of baptism "seals the deal."

Previously I mentioned that disobedience to the command to be water baptized may be due to unrepented sin. Other reasons could include poor teaching (perhaps some teachers to miscommunicate that water baptism is not important); and underlying rebellion (OK, I confessed my sins...but I don't want church leaders telling me what to do. I'll get baptized if and when I feel like it!)

IMHO, many evangelicals devalue baptism because we are so adamantly opposed to infant baptism. If babies don't need it to get into heaven, then perhaps many of our members believe it's just a ritual--nice, but not important. The fault lies with us leaders for not balancing our teaching, and honoring an ordinance so important that Christ himself partook.

[Justice]

PC, I'm so glad you have the clarity of mind to ask that question, and use the word remission.

I believe there is a stark difference between forgiveness of sins and remission of sins.

Forgiveness is needed for past sins. Only sins that are committed need be forgiven.

Remission of sins is for our desire for sin, or sins that we might commit in the future because we still desire them. This is the "born again" nature of baptism. This is where obedience plays a key role. We must give up our natural desires, and give our desires to Christ. In short, we must do His will.

Sin is like a disease that brings death. The desire to sin must also be squelched. Much like a disease that's in remission, when we receive a remission of sin through the power, gift, and grace of Christ, our desire to sin goes in remission, and we no longer desire to sin, but to do good continually. This is Book of Mormon doctrine as taught by King Benjamin, but touched on in the Bible.

Infant baptism is another topic, and one answered by the Book of Mormon very clearly.

[Justice]

Forgiveness of sins is very easy. Christ worked that out for all men. All sin can be forgiven through Christ if one repents.

Why if one repents? Because the final step of true repentance is having a change of heart, and no longer committing that sin. Through time, one can even receive a remission of that sin so that they no longer desire it.

I'll use smoking as an example. Let's say someone is told by a doctor they need to quit smoking. So, they quit. But, they didn't really want to. It's a fight and struggle for them. The desire, even addiction, for them is so very strong, it is nigh impossible to ignore. Until the desire or addiction is gone, it will be a very hard struggle. One cannot be sure they have finally quit until the desire goes in remission. Once they no longer desire it, they know they have won.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, that is the Kingdom of God, not specifically the Celestial Kingdom. That's the trap many fall into.

Baptism is required to be saved from outer darkness. The Kingdom of God includes the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms, as they are kingdoms of glory.

There are other covenants that chart ones path to the Celestial Kingdom.

Ugh...there is but one glory stated here, it is Celestial Kingdom, which is referred too as the Kingdom of GOD. There is no other glory requires a person to be baptized. Even President J. Fielding Smith quoted the same and he is correct.

[JohnnyRudick]

Let's take this a step further.. the only requirement to enter into the Celestial kingdom is baptism.

The only requirement?

OK:huh:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

PC and Justice:

Baptism and other ordinances are not by which we are saved. The jews could not be saved because of their adherence to the law, other wise the celestial kingdom will be the habitation of lawyers leaving the poets and artists on the curb. We receive salvation only through the Grace of G-d (Eph 2.8-10). We complete works because we love the L-rd and they are a perfect type of worship. When I am serving the L-rd I am offering up the sacrifices of my heart. I am giving up my pride by doing the work of the L-rd (Eph 3.7).

, , :)

[prisonchaplain]

PC, I'm so glad you have the clarity of mind to ask that question, and use the word remission.

I believe there is a stark difference between forgiveness of sins and remission of sins.

Forgiveness is needed for past sins. Only sins that are committed need be forgiven.

Remission of sins is for our desire for sin, or sins that we might commit in the future because we still desire them. This is the "born again" nature of baptism. This is where obedience plays a key role. We must give up our natural desires, and give our desires to Christ. In short, we must do His will.

Sin is like a disease that brings death. The desire to sin must also be squelched. Much like a disease that's in remission, when we receive a remission of sin through the power, gift, and grace of Christ, our desire to sin goes in remission, and we no longer desire to sin, but to do good continually. This is Book of Mormon doctrine as taught by King Benjamin, but touched on in the Bible.

If I am not mistaken, what you describe as "remission of sins," sounds very much like what Nazarenes and Pentecostal Holiness call "sanctification." While the word means "holiness," some Christian groups (such as the two I mentioned) believe there is an added work of grace (after salvation). Some even call it baptism in the Holy Spirit. Others "sanctification." It's a divine Holy Ghost infused power against sinning. Interesting indeed.

[goofball]

I think the original poster is long gone. Everyone bored him with their knowledge

Edited May 30, 2009 by goofball
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