Is Baptism Necessary?

[Justice]

aj4u, I'd like to separate off this topic so I can try to keep it clear. I'd like to move ahead slow. FYI I prayed sincerely to know how I can help this discussion reach a point where it can be beneficial. I was impressed to talk about baptism. So, that is why I believe this is the topic you and I need to stay focused on. I believe this discussion will yield fruit.

I presented the question to you:

Is baptism necessary? This was your response:

The Bible commands (says) go ye into all the world and preach the gospel baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If it were not necessary, it wouldn't have been mentioned. On the other hand, it is not always possible to baptize someone. Does that mean they can't be saved or have eternal life? NO, of course not. Baptism is like a marriage vow. The commitment has to be there (born-again) first otherwise it is just a ritual that means nothing. I have answered this question many times and in many ways. The thief on the cross didn't get baptized, but still received eternal life. I believe in being baptized and I was, but I put my trust only in Christ for the salvation of my soul not in any works, baptisms, tithing or any other such things. I am hid in Christ that is what baptism means to me. I died with Christ and now I am a new creature. He took my sin on him and His righteousness has come on me because I put on and receive Christ as the Lord of my life; therefore, I stand perfect before God because of Christ in me the hope of glory! The just shall live by faith. Faith is better than a known path. God is still completing the work He started in me. The path of the just is as a shinning light - It shines more and more until the perfect day. When God looks at me He sees Christ in me who is my hope, my ressurection, my life, my salvation and the lifter of my head! I live by faith and I don't trust my emotions or feelings, but God's word is always true.

Then, I asked if it was necessary that Jesus was baptized.

I was going to wait until the 2nd question was answered, but I don't think I need to (feel free to answer it).

aj4u, I'd like to comment on some things you mentioned in your answer, going slowly, 1 topic at a time.

The Bible commands (says) go ye into all the world and preach the gospel baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If it were not necessary, it wouldn't have been mentioned.

I agree. But, I want to know more about why you think it is not necessary.

On the other hand, it is not always possible to baptize someone. Does that mean they can't be saved or have eternal life? NO, of course not. Baptism is like a marriage vow. The commitment has to be there (born-again) first otherwise it is just a ritual that means nothing.

So, you agree that it is a commandment (I don't separate anything Christ "says" for us to do away from His commandments like you are trying to do--I believe what He says for us to do we should do). Christ taught baptism was necessary several times in the Bible. The scripture you referred to is just one of those places.

But, instead of believing baptism is neccessary, even after quoting Christ saying so, since you can't understand how those who have not been baptized can be saved without baptism, you say it is not necessary.

You say, yes, Christ commanded it, but since we don't know how to do it for everyone, then it must be that it is not required.

Is this the logic and reasoning you have used to arrive at your interpretation that baptism is not required?

Also, you say you have proof the thief was not baptized, and you interpret Christ's words to him while He was hanging on the cross that that man gained eternal life? You say this is also evidence?

If these are not right, please exaplain.

(By the way, the Book of Mormon speaks about whether or not baptism is necessary, I plan to bring those words into the discussion soon)

[Hemidakota]

Then the question comes back, is baptism necessary for the telestial and terrestrial glory?

[bytebear]

Then the question comes back, is baptism necessary for the telestial and terrestrial glory?

My personal opionion is no. You only need faith in Christ to receive Terrestrial glory. You believed, but made no covenant, therefore you are rewarded for your belief.

[Jim108]

AJ4U, that was one of the best explanations of babtism I have ever read. You are right on. Thank you so much for posting it.

[Jim108]

My personal opionion is no. You only need faith in Christ to receive Terrestrial glory. You believed, but made no covenant, therefore you are rewarded for your belief.

"You only need faith in Christ to receive Terrestrial glory."

I agree, but would truncate your statement to say "you only need Christ"

[the Ogre]

"You only need faith in Christ to receive Terrestrial glory."

I agree, but would truncate your statement to say "you only need Christ"

But by saying that, you are confusing the difference between Celestial glory and that of Terrestrial glory. Faith alone, in my opinion, gets you only to the Terrestrial kingdom. Faith and the obedience to the L-rd's commandments grant Celestial glory.

[Jim108]

But by saying that, you are confusing the difference between Celestial glory and that of Terrestrial glory. Faith alone, in my opinion, gets you only to the Terrestrial kingdom. Faith and the obedience to the L-rd's commandments grant Celestial glory.

With my faith there is no celestial or terrestrial or glory. I am not interested in glory or rewards or any other kind of Earthly or Heavenly Pay Back. I am a servant of Christ with no expectaions of gain. His will be done.

[the Ogre]

With my faith there is no celestial or terrestrial or glory. I am not interested in glory or rewards or any other kind of Earthly or Heavenly Pay Back. I am a servant of Christ with no expectaions of gain. His will be done.

So, you do not accept the concept of "heaven"?

[Jim108]

So, you do not accept the concept of "heaven"?

I accept the concept of heeaven. I just do not accept that it is some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works. I am saved by grace alone and that is only afforded to me by my belief in Jesus. My works have no value toward my entry into heaven as my entry is allowed by grace alone. Appart from faith, entry into heaven is not of my own doing.

[the Ogre]

I accept the concept of heeaven. I just do not accept that it is some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works. I am saved by grace alone and that is only afforded to me by my belief in Jesus. My works have no value toward my entry into heaven as my entry is allowed by grace alone. Appart from faith, entry into heaven is not of my own doing.

Okay, I'll accept you believe Latter-day Saints deny "Grace". I am fine with that.

Why would you deny me the right to believe differently than do you?

[Jim108]

Okay, I'll accept you believe Latter-day Saints deny "Grace". I am fine with that.

Why would you deny me the right to believe differently than do you?

Ogre, please read my post again, I do not state any belief other than my own. I did not make any claims regarding the LDS or any other religion. Ogre you have a right to believe in what you want to.

[the Ogre]

Ogre, please read my post again, I do not state any belief other than my own. I did not make any claims regarding the LDS or any other religion. Ogre you have a right to believe in what you want to.

If you allow Latter-day Saints to believe what we want, why were you so quick to smear LDS concepts of salvation as only "some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works." It has been stated sufficiently that Latter-day Saints believe in Grace and yet we still value what you consider some type of dirty word: work. I think all Chr-stians value works like marriage, baptism, teaching children, and missionary out-reach. I know many Chr-stians think simply stating ones faith without doing anything about it is "empty faith." Latter-day Saints concur.

I understand you may disavow and deny Latter-day Saint claims to Grace. I think you ought to at least recognize we have the right to believe as we will without condemnation.

Edited May 28, 2009 by the Ogre

[pam]

I think LDS also value works as compassionate service or helping those in need. I kind of like to think that some of the good works I do is somehow getting me SOME points.

[Jim108]

If you allow Latter-day Saints to believe what we want, why were you so quick to smear LDS concepts of salvation as only "some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works." It has been stated sufficiently that Latter-day Saints believe in Grace and yet we still value what you consider some type of dirty word: work. I think all Chr-stians value works like marriage, baptism, teaching children, and missionary out-reach. I know many Chr-stians think simply stating ones faith without doing anything about it is "empty faith." Latter-day Saints concur.

I understand you may disavow and deny Latter-day Saint claims to Grace. I think you ought to at least recognize we have the right to believe as we will without condemnation.

Ogre, here is my post

"With my faith there is no celestial or terrestrial or glory. I am not interested in glory or rewards or any other kind of Earthly or Heavenly Pay Back. I am a servant of Christ with no expectaions of gain. His will be done."

I do not mention LDS anywhere in it and I am not your mother to allow you to believe in what you want. I take acception with your putting words and meaning in my posts that do not exist. Debate my post yes, but do not add verbiage to my posts please. If I wanted to say those things I would have.

[Jim108]

I think LDS also value works as compassionate service or helping those in need. I kind of like to think that some of the good works I do is somehow getting me SOME points.

"I kind of like to think that some of the good works I do is somehow getting me SOME points."

Pam, no points, no score. Salvation has no scoring accept for thumbs up or thumbs down. Simple.

[Moksha]

I believe baptism represents a symbolic expungment rather than a literal one. As far as I know, water is not a solvent for abstract ideas such as sin. Being "born anew" also seems symbolic.

I think LDS also value works as compassionate service or helping those in need. I kind of like to think that some of the good works I do is somehow getting me SOME points.

Whether by a point system or simply following the path of Jesus, compassionate service is what we should do.

[Jim108]

I believe baptism represents a symbolic expungment rather than a literal one. As far as I know, water is not a solvent for abstract ideas such as sin. Being "born anew" also seems symbolic.

Whether by a point system or simply following the path of Jesus, compassionate service is what we should do.

"...simply following the path of Jesus."

Yes, that is well said.

[pam]

Okay if that's the case..then I can just continue to live my life caring only about myself and never having to do anything to assist my fellow man. Never having to show compassion never having to help a neighbor in need.

You are taking what I said about points too literally. I believe that yes we have grace but I also believe that works is extremely important in our salvation as well. Without some works we are nothing more than selfish person. And that is not Christ like either.

[the Ogre]

I am glad you pointed out your support of AJ's post on baptism. I pointed out on another thread how it dovetails perfectly with LDS doctrine (we might word things a little differently).

However, below you are responding to LDS beliefs regarding salvation. You can believe what you will.

Ogre, here is my post

"With my faith there is no celestial or terrestrial or glory. I am not interested in glory or rewards or any other kind of Earthly or Heavenly Pay Back. I am a servant of Christ with no expectaions of gain. His will be done."

I do not mention LDS anywhere in it and I am not your mother to allow you to believe in what you want. I take acception with your putting words and meaning in my posts that do not exist. Debate my post yes, but do not add verbiage to my posts please. If I wanted to say those things I would have.

Funny to say you didn't mention LDS in your post. You were responding to a post about LDS doctrines of salvation. I think your post had everything to say about LDS beliefs.

So you didn't say:

I accept the concept of heeaven. I just do not accept that it is some kind of pay back for being a good little boy and doing my works. I am saved by grace alone and that is only afforded to me by my belief in Jesus. My works have no value toward my entry into heaven as my entry is allowed by grace alone. Appart from faith, entry into heaven is not of my own doing.

By saying you do not accept heaven as some sort of prize, you are saying we do at least by implication. I also was quoting you in the post you are so unhappy about.

"I kind of like to think that some of the good works I do is somehow getting me SOME points."

Pam, no points, no score. Salvation has no scoring accept for thumbs up or thumbs down. Simple.

I find it interesting you would condemn the beliefs of the LDS Senior Head Moderator on a forum called LDS.net. I think she can say what she wants here without correction. Not only that, I think she might just happen to know what she's talking about (she being the oldest person on the site except the oft-noted Ben Raines).

So, the final question: are you one of those who came here to witness the truth to mormon-cultists?

[Jim108]

Okay if that's the case..then I can just continue to live my life caring only about myself and never having to do anything to assist my fellow man. Never having to show compassion never having to help a neighbor in need.

You are taking what I said about points too literally. I believe that yes we have grace but I also believe that works is extremely important in our salvation as well. Without some works we are nothing more than selfish person. And that is not Christ like either.

Pam, you know that is not what I mean. We have Jesus in us. We do what Jesus would do the best we can. We just do not expect reward. The glory is Gods. Just because you don't get a reward does not mean you stop doing good. I know you from your posts to know that you have Jesus in your heart and would do good for the only reason that it is the right thing to do. It's Love.

[pam]

Oh but I do want a reward. I want to reach the celestial kingdom which is the greatest reward of all.

[the Ogre]

Oh but I do want a reward. I want to reach the celestial kingdom which is the greatest reward of all.

So does everyone else. Even Jim does. He just has trouble with LDS ideas about getting there.

[Jim108]

I am glad you pointed out your support of AJ's post on baptism. I pointed out on another thread how it dovetails perfectly with LDS doctrine (we might word things a little differently).

However, below you are responding to LDS beliefs regarding salvation. You can believe what you will.

Funny to say you didn't mention LDS in your post. You were responding to a post about LDS doctrines of salvation. I think your post had everything to say about LDS beliefs.

So you didn't say:

By saying you do not accept heaven as some sort of prize, you are saying we do at least by implication. I also was quoting you in the post you are so unhappy about.

I find it interesting you would condemn the beliefs of the LDS Senior Head Moderator on a forum called LDS.net. I think she can say what she wants here without correction. Not only that, I think she might just happen to know what she's talking about (she being the oldest person on the site except the oft-noted Ben Raines).

So, the final question: are you one of those who came here to witness the truth to mormon-cultists?

Relax, there is no room here for debate on these terms. I stand by my belief and I respect yours. (...and that is not to mean that I am giving you permission to have a belief or any other unintended foggy innuendo on my part.)

[Jim108]

Oh but I do want a reward. I want to reach the celestial kingdom which is the greatest reward of all.

Your point system is a reward is it not?

[pam]

I don't have a point system. Again you are taking that too literally. It was just a phrasology or use of words..nothing more. What I was saying is: I'm hoping the good works that I do while on this earth will help me gain the reward that I want.

You are just twisting my words.