What causes people to be extremly ant-mormon?

[the Ogre]

You work in an area that a Latter-day Saint would not be welcome in (institutional glass-ceilings and all that). Your work is very important.

As FYI, there are two LDS volunteers working with a small group of inmates as we post. The Stake sends them. LDS Family Services sent us a pretty substantial library kit to supplement our LDS section.

No Problem. Here is my original text:

If you recheck the context and flavor of my post, I'm quite certain you'll find that I did not insist your church defend itself, as if it was in a Courtroom, accused of something.

You have yet to do so directly, but there are many who have.

Rather, I highlighted that if you hope to convert committed evangelicals to the Restored Gospel, most of us will need substantial convicing (burden of proof). Such an observation is no more insulting me saying I won't quit drinking coffee unless I receive substantial evidence it's bad for my health, or I'm convinced God wants me to quit.

If you are a committed evangelical and have confidence in your faith, why would I want to pull you away from it (besides, I listened to your talk this morning, you go way past the time limits allowed). You work in an area that a Latter-day Saint would not be welcome in (institutional glass-ceilings and all that). Your work is very important.

Years ago on LDSTalk, we clashed on priest-craft. I still think it is a true principal, but should I hold that belief against you? Should I use that as a hammer to chip-away at your faith? Today, I went after someone for promulgating false LDS doctrine. I think what he is doing is just as wrong as anti-mormonism. I confronted him on it and I hope he changes. I recognize that attacking mormons is not false-evangelical teaching, but it is un-Chr-stian. I think that right there would be good enough a reason for you to at least encourage others to be consistent and considerate in their approach. You deny post-modernity? If so, then you should have said something. I think post-modernity is cute but limiting. Equal pay for equal play is too important to who I am.

Edited May 31, 2009 by the Ogre
MY APOLOGIES--MEANT TO RESPOND AND INADVERTENTLY EDITED THIS MESSAGE. CAN'T GET ORIGINAL BACK. MEA CULPA!

[the Ogre]

So, what comment am I supposed to make to this?

There is a Korean proverb your wife might know: "If you don't know, how am I supposed to tell you?" Edited May 31, 2009 by the Ogre

[Guest lalaonegin]

Could you give some example of what is being made up.

Everything you posted in your previous post. If you believe any of the falsehoods you posted, it is you who follows Satan, none of us.

EVERYTHING you posted in that previous post is taken out of context, distorted or just plain made up. Now, save the bandwith and don't ask me to explain. If you believe ANY of those points, you are here under totally false pretenses...AND, I refuse to waste anymore time on the likes of you.

[the Ogre]

17. When looking for a house to buy in Utah, we were told by a neighbor bluntly that we would not fit in here because, you see, we are all mormons. wink wink wink wink, as in, just kidding? Why even throw this in here? No it ment get out, we don't want no nonmormons here. I was there and saw it first hand. I have friends who also have experienced this. Ugly

18. It is very hard on nonmormon kids to go to school in a mostly mormon school. The teasing is non ending and they are excluded and are lonely. I have known people who have moved just to get their kid into a more diversified school.

Jim, I won't lie to you, your final paragraph is quite upsetting. At the same time I am on your side in the two points above. I have discussed them in other threads and this problem has been discussed in conference. It is disgusting and as wrong as I was treated when I was a teen-ager. My brothers and I have felt the rejection of Latter-day Saints as well. We were all rebellious and had strong counter-culture leanings. We were not welcome in school and often corrected from the podium by the then bishop. During WWI and II my great-grandmother was a nurse in Salt Lake. She had a heavy german accent. There were patients who were convinced she was poisoning them. There were many who petitioned the hospital administrators to have her fired. Those petitioners and my grandmother were LDS. I have started several threads that deal with racism. It is alive and well in Utah, but none of these make the church any less true. It convicts the members.

Jello-belt Mormons have a long way to go before they are perfect. We, as a people, are still an evolving culture just like the rest of the country. DO not think though the bible-belt is any more a happy place or free of bigotry. There are a great many evengelicals who fly the stars-and-bars from their homes and actively fight community integration. Many still fight congregational integrity. In this area, both evangelicals and Latter-day Saints have a lot to do.

The two points above however do not deal with doctrinal issues for either Evangelicals or Latter-day Saints. Neither point out how false a religion is. These points convict the members not the structures.

I also have heard of mormons moving away from Utah because they're sick of the exclusiveness there. The people aren't perfect, but the gospel is. So if you're looking for perfection, study the gospel, not the people. Jesus is perfect

This is true. My dad's parents will not live here. They are LDS and have served several temple missions at the Chicago temple. My brother and his very jello-belt wife now live in Edmond Oklahoma rather than here in Utah because of the narrow-minded members here. I have always been happier in church outside of Utah than in. I love church in South Korea the most. Korean members are great fun.

This is the one area where you are right, but it is not doctrinal. It is not even a practice. It is because individuals in both faiths tend to be morons.

[the Ogre]

As FYI, there are two LDS volunteers working with a small group of inmates as we post. The Stake sends them. LDS Family Services sent us a pretty substantial library kit to supplement our LDS section.

I met a guy once who does the same thing at the point of the mountain up to Draper. What they do not have are paid LDS Chaplains like the military does. There is not a single one in the entire US prison system (I might be wrong, I haven't double checked this since I wrote a paper on this topic in 2006).

[Guest lalaonegin]

I love how these self righteous bigoted anti's like Jim, love to finger point and nitpick about LDS culture, but scream holy hades, if Latter Day Saints point out their foibles and cultural bigotries they're comfortable practicing.

Jim108 is on a slippery slope promoting Satan's agenda, even with Prison Chaplain as back up, his false positions on Doctrine are being dismissed. So what does he do? He brings up the old canards about how wicked, mean, rotten and awful Utah Mormons are (which BTW, when I read this crap, I'm grateful Brigham sent my ancestors to California)

Let's talk about the institutional bigotry and racism that existed in the South. Institutionalized by God fearing Christians from the pulpit like Jim108.

Cultural Mormonism is always the canard, when his ilk starts losing the Doctrinal attacks.

[Guest lalaonegin]

I met a guy once who does the same thing at the point of the mountain up to Draper. What they do not have are paid LDS Chaplains like the military does. There is not a single one in the entire US prison system (I might be wrong, I haven't double checked this since I wrote a paper on this topic in 2006).

There are a number of religious edifices and houses of worship of faiths other than LDS in Slat Lake, paid for by the Church. The Prophet Brigham did not want a theocracy, he wrote to the Catholic Church and urged them to open a mission in the SL Valley.

More recently, the Church contributed to building a Hare Krishna Temple in Spanish Faaaark.

I have never seen a needy person subject to religious bias by the Church Welfare System.

YET...For all of Jim108's and Prison Chaplains veiled attacks upon our faith, I've never seen the AOG ever contribute to another faith.

Also, I read once that the DOD had restricted how Service Chaplains could "serve" and that we as LDS were hit hard by it, cause we as a faith don't have formal Divinity Schools and the like for our "Clergy".

[the Ogre]

Also, I read once that the DOD had restricted how Service Chaplains could "serve" and that we as LDS were hit hard by it, cause we as a faith don't have formal Divinity Schools and the like for our "Clergy".

This has changed. The church and the DOD came to an agreement. There is a mechanism inplace over to the Y that resolves this disagreement. It is a military chaplain's graduate program.

[prisonchaplain]

I met a guy once who does the same thing at the point of the mountain up to Draper. What they do not have are paid LDS Chaplains like the military does. There is not a single one in the entire US prison system (I might be wrong, I haven't double checked this since I wrote a paper on this topic in 2006).

You are correct. My guess is that there is no institution with a substantial enough LDS inmate population, that a full-time chaplain would be justified. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the military treats LDS chaplains as Protestants, whereas the prison system lists your church as a distinct faith group. I recall during my missionary time in Taegu, Korea, that one of the "Protestant" military chaplains at Camp Walker was LDS.

So...perhaps it's a good sign--your people aren't getting into enough trouble to warrant full time ministry.

[the Ogre]

So...perhaps it's a good sign--your people aren't getting into enough trouble to warrant full time ministry.

When I was the first counselor of the Camp Red Cloud Branch in Uijongbu one of our members was a chaplain serving the 2ID (this was 2002). He explained some of the changes the military had made and how wonderful it was that he was no longer considered a Protestant by the USArmy.

In 1986 when I was stationed at Camp Humphreys, the post chaplain assured me that there we no mormons in the entire country and that I would be very happy with one of the services held there at the post chapel. The next day, I ran in the missionaries in Anjung Ri (I was being initiated by my unit that night . . . oy vey!). They gave me their card. I called them and found out where the services were (Osan AFB thirty to forty-five minutes on the bus to the north). Yes, I was a raving drunk the entire time I was in the military, but I did get to church most of the time (no coffee though, I still associate the smell of coffee with the row of hairy, trucker butt-crack visible every morning at the local Flying J shoveling down breakfast and guzzling black-tar coffee in styrofoam cups).

I have only ever met two LDS USArmy chaplains and only one Orthodox Jewish Chaplain, but they are out there even if the nice mormon and jewish kids stay out of trouble.

Edited May 31, 2009 by the Ogre

[Guest lalaonegin]

Ogre...You be careful over there, we don't want you glowing in the dark...

[Jim108]

I love how these self righteous bigoted anti's like Jim, love to finger point and nitpick about LDS culture, but scream holy hades, if Latter Day Saints point out their foibles and cultural bigotries they're comfortable practicing.

Jim108 is on a slippery slope promoting Satan's agenda, even with Prison Chaplain as back up, his false positions on Doctrine are being dismissed. So what does he do? He brings up the old canards about how wicked, mean, rotten and awful Utah Mormons are (which BTW, when I read this crap, I'm grateful Brigham sent my ancestors to California)

Let's talk about the institutional bigotry and racism that existed in the South. Institutionalized by God fearing Christians from the pulpit like Jim108.

Cultural Mormonism is always the canard, when his ilk starts losing the Doctrinal attacks.

I say believe in Jesus with all your heart and soul. That is what I preach. Tell me where the fault is. I also take acception with you saying I have a satanic agenda. I answered the question regarding why some people are anit mormon. What, did you want me to do, sugar coat it. I made it clear that the uglyness goes both ways. I also made it clear that we need to forgive and to love each other. I brought up the "old canards" because the question was asked. I was blunt and to the point. These ugly thoughts are rampid among anti mormons just as some of you have ugly thoughts about us. The sword has two edges.

By the way leave prison chaplain out of this. He is a very good man.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Jim108

[the Ogre]

These ugly thoughts are rampid among anti mormons just as some of you have ugly thoughts about us.

If there are anti-Evangelical Latter-day Saints who monetarily support and/or opperate anti-Evangelical Ministries and websites that publish books, pamphlets, and distribute talking points, let me know. They won't know what happened to them. I will be very thorough.

Do not confuse this with the MTC or CES, they do not target specific groups with any type of negativity. They are only parts of our official, general approach to evangelism.

Edited May 31, 2009 by the Ogre

[Snow]

That is merely an opinion, which of-course you are welcome to but which I think at this point I disagree with.

The Council's were not designed to make new doctrine out of thin air (well, lets say that for the sake of discussion) but rather meetings to officially sanction already widely held beliefs.

Well no. It's not just an opinion. It's history.

First, no one claimed that the councils made up doctrine out of thin air - please do not attack my position by making up claims for it that are untrue.

Second, the modern concept (derived from the 4th and 5th centuries) is not found in the bible. You will shortly demonstrate that by being unable to actually reference it in the bible.

Third, prior to Nicea, subordination was the prevailing view. I can provide references and citations if required. It was the pagan Emperor who 1. recommended consubstantiality to the council and then threatened death and exile to those that didn't get on board.

Forth, the thus defined Trinity continued to be less than popular such that a half century later, the new emperor had to make it a law. Note that he, the emperor, not the church, declared it and made all other views heretical. Afterward, the Council of Constantinople merely agreed with him.

[Snow]

I made it clear that the uglyness goes both ways. I also made it clear that we need to forgive and to love each other. I brought up the "old canards" because the question was asked. I was blunt and to the point. These ugly thoughts are rampid among anti mormons just as some of you have ugly thoughts about us. The sword has two edges.

I call BULL.

The only acrimony Mormons feel towards "evangelicals" or protestants or whoever you identify with is on account of the deceit and violence and bigotry that comes out of that camp towards The Church of Jesus Christ.

I've never seen an anti-Evangelical website operated by The Church or it's members - have you?

I've never seen an LDS demonstration and picketing at an evangelical event - have you?

I've never read an anti-evangelical book written by the Church, have you?

Honesty please.

[pam]

I've also never seen anyone here post an entire list concerning other religious and why we might think them to be false.

[Guest lalaonegin]

I say believe in Jesus with all your heart and soul. That is what I preach. Tell me where the fault is. I also take acception with you saying I have a satanic agenda. I answered the question regarding why some people are anit mormon. What, did you want me to do, sugar coat it. I made it clear that the uglyness goes both ways. I also made it clear that we need to forgive and to love each other. I brought up the "old canards" because the question was asked. I was blunt and to the point. These ugly thoughts are rampid among anti mormons just as some of you have ugly thoughts about us. The sword has two edges.

Next misleading and less than honest Jim108 post, please????

Jim108, you know that there are many in your faith who live of the lies they write about Latter Day Saints. There are many who've put their children through college off the lies they post on their websites.

You know jim108, I've often wondered why anti's like you love to hang with the very heathens and cultists you've already condemned to Hell?

[Jim108]

All of your points you bring out about the uglyness of the christian religions against you are true. But the question asked was why are people anit mormon. You have been attacked and it is wrong. But, it has gone both ways. I would say this, I believe your religion has been unproportionally attacked. It is ugly however you view it.

I am not anti mormon. I just answered the question knowing the attack would be brutal. Next time I will just say that there are no reasons to cause people to be anti mormon as your church has done nothing wrong.....ever. Now you know that is not right either. Don't ask the question if you do not want the answer.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps the matter that is raising temperatures is that several posters believe that Jim is arguing moral equivalence (you attack us, we attack you). However, he never said that. He only said there is "ugliness" on both sides of the aisle. He did not downplay evangelical poor behavior, nor did he inflate or sensationalize LDS unkindness. And, again, as Jim has repeatedly said, he was answering the question of why some people are so anti-LDS.

That said, it was perhaps foolish for Jim and I to step into that landmine question. The problem with explaining the Devil is that people are bound to think we're defending him. :-)

[Justice]

I believe the true church is assembliesofgodbaptistcongregationaldisciplesofchristevangelicalfree...well you get my point...they are all true.

You know, the Apostles spent most of their time trying to correct the false beliefs of the early church members. They taught over and over that they must be of one mind and one heart, knit together (one faith, one Lord, one baptism).

Your statement above says we can all believe and teach different things and all be right.

If I say the box is white, and you say the box is black, it is impossible for us both to be right. Either:

1. I am right and you are wrong.

2. You are right and I am wrong.

3. We are both wrong.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to be logical.

That's one of the great mysteries of the modern Christian world to me. How can one church who teaches baptism is necessary believe and teach that another church, that teaches baptism is not necessary, is teaching correct doctrine?

I'd like to see a comment based soley on that issue which, perhaps, includes what you would say to a member of your congregation that asks the same question.

[Justice]

I am not anti mormon. I just answered the question knowing the attack would be brutal. Next time I will just say that there are no reasons to cause people to be anti mormon as your church has done nothing wrong.....ever. Now you know that is not right either. Don't ask the question if you do not want the answer.

This isn't in direct response to your comment, because I don't view you as a contentious person. My comments are directed at LDS members on the forum.

It's a double edge sword for this reason:

If we were living our religion as we know we should many of the things on Jim's list wouldn't be there. The doctrinal differences would be, but the accusations that we are less than hospitable wouldn't be.

If we were living our religion the opposition against our church would be much more vocal to offset our righteousness. But, it would be about doctrine, not about the way we treat people.

Our goal should always be to teach. We should always have patience, especially toward those not of our faith. The opposition or "persecution" we may see on a forum such as this is really insignificant. I am thankful that all I have to do is log into a web site to see this "persecution."

I live in the Bible belt and my kids aren't always treated fairly. But, oftentimes, those who treat them unfairly are simply doing what they think is right. I hold no grudge toward them, and I teach my kids not to. But, my comments would be very different toward a member of LDS faith who treated others that way.

Even if it was aj4u's intention to come here and try to catch us in traps and tell us we are liars and devils. We should turn to the example of the One we claim to follow; we should deal love and patience to them, not venom and impatience. No matter what he said; no matter what he did, he did not "deserve" the treatment he received on this forum. We claim we are the true Church... well, we will get responses like Jim's when we make that claim and then act like we have here lately.

It's behavior like we just demonstrated toward aj4u that makes comments like Jim's not surprising.

[Dravin]

While not the exactly a master on the subject I've had it explained as such to me:

One Faith in Jesus Christ

One Lord, Jesus Christ

One Baptism in the name of/unto Jesus Christ.

One of the hardest things of interfaith discussion is our own basis and preconceptions. For one person a scripture clearly means this and thus the logic based upon that meaning is perfectly clear and solid, however if one believes it clearly means something else that logic which was before clear and solid starts to fail.

[the Ogre]

Our goal should always be to teach. We should always have patience, especially toward those not of our faith. The opposition or "persecution" we may see on a forum such as this is really insignificant.

And with Chamberlainesque charity and appeasement we continue to smile and be kind to people who hate us more than they do abortionists, pornographers, and eugenicists. Be patient with those who see us as the lowest form of humanity.

Atheism and cultural suicide is better than what those you would appease want of us.

[Dravin]

And with Chamberlainesque charity and appeasement we continue to smile and be kind to people who hate us more than they do abortionists, pornographers, and eugenicists. Be patient with those who see us as the lowest form of humanity.

Atheism and cultural suicide is better than what those you would appease want of us.

We should love them and have patience, that said on the other hand Jesus at times refused his captors sport by refusing to speak to those who mocked him. I think Elder Hales sums it up quite nicely in his conference talk Christian Courage.

My own summation for those who don't want to read it:

We need to love, we need to teach but we don't have to raise to the bait.

[Snow]

All of your points you bring out about the uglyness of the christian religions against you are true. But the question asked was why are people anit mormon. You have been attacked and it is wrong. But, it has gone both ways. I would say this, I believe your religion has been unproportionally attacked. It is ugly however you view it.

Bull, bull, bull.

Give us to the links at LDS anti-evangelical websites.

Name the LDS anti-evangelical books.

Link to the photos of LDS picketing of evangelical events.