American capitalism gone with a whimper

[Hemidakota]

Surprising to me that anyone reads the Pravda...[consensus with Funky] kudos.

[Islander]

capitalism is just making rich people richer, and the "third world" countries are getting worst every year that passes.

Socialism refers to any one of various economic theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation based on the full product of the laborer. Modern socialism originated in the late 19th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society.

A moderate socialism = equal opportunities. but you know the big enterprises and the big "fishes are afraid that they would take their privilages away, so the goverment alienates people to think socialism is evil and all those lies about being anti-religion, moderate socialism isn't against religion.

Hang in there. The Savior is making His way to us. In the mean time, please do not hold your breath.

[talisyn]

It's very entertaining, Hordak. You'll enjoy it. Besides the Hollow Earth style monstrousities, its pro-Russian bent acts as a pulse for how they're feeling at the time.

On August 26th, 2008, Russia invaded Georgia.

Georgia prepared to declare war against Russia - Pravda.Ru

That's from 2006, February, 2 years before the invasion.

The War in Chechnya:

Mikhail Gorbachev: Russia must give Chechnya autonomy - Pravda.Ru

And yet: Any Alternatives to Today's Head of Chechen Administration? - Pravda.Ru

This occurred in 2003 as well. Reading between the lines, the Pro-Moscow Chechnyan Ahmad Kadyrov became President. And Pravda predicted it. Not too hard, since he was backed by Putin. Here's who he was:

Akhmad Kadyrov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, remember that while Pravda is a ridiculous newspaper, it is also incredibly accurate for gauging politics in the region.

'Accurate gauging'? Try 'sending up trial balloons'.

Pravda has never struck me as anything more than a Russian equivalent of maybe The New Yorker. Puffy, biased, and really really full of itself.

Edited June 2, 2009 by talisyn

[miztrniceguy]

I don't know LM. O and his boys are right. Capitalism in the last twenty years has been a disaster for the poor in this nation and internationally. I think it is time to change. How about a compromise? Do you have any ideas for compromise. The status quo is a complete failure economically and rhetorically is dead. Change is needed. I do not think O is on the right track, but the economically conservatism have yet to offer a plan.

It has been a long wait. I think something has to be done now.

change...hmphh....barely any change in my pockets now, and I have to pay for someone else's problems.

i'm not impressed with the way things are going.

oh, and calif wants to be bailed out, too....das that mean Obama will be firing Arnold?

[Prodigal_Son]

O and his boys are right. Capitalism in the last twenty years has been a disaster for the poor in this nation and internationally. I think it is time to change.

How on earth has capitalism hurt the poor? Capitalism fuels competition, price cutting, job creation, etc. All these things benefit the poor. While capitalism may expose many men as selfish and greedy, socialism and communism are nothing more than Satan's plan tooled for government.

Boot-strap solutions to poverty only work for individuals. There are whole classes of people in poverty that need help as a class...

Sometimes people need help with education. Some people need help with medical bills.

The mistake you're making is to think that the only role player that exists to combat poverty is government. Puh-leaze! Again, that's Satan's plan. That's Big Brother taking, without asking, from him, him, and him, to dole out to others of often questionable need.

What would happen if, perish the thought, a church was out there that took care of its members in need? Maybe had work programs? Maybe had education programs? Maybe had welfare programs? Wouldn't that be novel?! And, to think, if some church was so inspired, Uncle Sam would be off the hook!

So maybe, rather than telling us the government should take a bigger role, you should be focusing on missionary work so that the Lord's system can have a bigger effect in this nation.

...I think we need to drop all pretense and adopt a system like Great Britain's.

You are aware, I hope, that economists are predicting the COMPLETE COLLAPSE of Britain's economy? And specifically because of socialistic practices whose burdens are too much for their stagnant economy to bear? Printing more money doesn't actually work in the long run.

This is where religions have to step in and work closely with government.

Again, government has no right or power to play any such role. You need to read the Constitution. Clearly the purpose of government has eluded you.

capitalism is just making rich people richer, and the "third world" countries are getting worst every year that passes.

I don't even know where to start with this inane comment. Capitalism is, in fact, making rich people richer. And you know HOW it's doing that? By creating more and more jobs and more and more resources that people want and need! Capitalism isn't just that one fat cat at the top who busted his hump for 30 years and is finally reaping the dividends of his efforts!!!

Further, how does capitalism in America evoke a decline in 3rd world countries? Geez, most big capitalists are manufacturing IN those 3rd world countries - providing jobs that wouldn't otherwise exist, and generating massive tax streams for those governments! Oh, but that's right: those governments are socialist/communist/dictatorships/etc that don't redistribute the wealth properly. Come to think of it, what form of government out there ever has?

Socialism refers to any one of various economic theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation based on the full product of the laborer.

And just as soon as Christ returns, we'll have someone capable of monitoring such a system. But until then, what looks so koombayah on paper doesn't work in the real world. Take a look around the globe.

A moderate socialism = equal opportunities.

Socialism stagnates growth, development, progress, and revenues. How? By removing ALL incentive to work hard to create, build, develop... GET AHEAD. With exception going to the most altruistic in our society, how many people do you think will go to work day in and day out and give it 110% when there's no incentive to do so, beyond "keeping the cogs in the machine of big government turning"?

I could go on, but I'd best leave it here for the moment.

I think you guys need to put down "The Jungle" and pick up "Animal Farm".

[the Ogre]

i'm not impressed with the way things are going.

I agree, but he is doing better than the no-plan republicans.

[the Ogre]

Socialism stagnates growth, development, progress, and revenues. How? By removing ALL incentive to work hard to create, build, develop... GET AHEAD. With exception going to the most altruistic in our society, how many people do you think will go to work day in and day out and give it 110% when there's no incentive to do so, beyond "keeping the cogs in the machine of big government turning"?

All true, but where is the alternative. Capitalism obviously is not the answer. Hang on to that propaganda boy if you can't come up with an alternative. Doing nothing has destroyed the opportunities of the poor.

Do you think there are no other options other than socialism and capitalism? I am very afraid. There has to be another option other than Communism.

If you can not think of anything better than capitalism, it is obvious that creativity is dead and the markets deserve to crash and the English and American systems deserve to fail. Evolution leaves behind failures. Capitalism is dying and you say socialism is a trap, fine: come up with something better.

Turn off Rush and Hannity and use your brains.

Edited June 3, 2009 by the Ogre

[HEthePrimate]

Is it true that material gain is the only thing that can possibly motivate people to work and do a good job? If so, we're in a sad state of affairs.

HEP

[Guest]

Ogre, I hate to break it to ya, but the last 20 years in America has not been "CAPITALISM".

Glow-inthe-dark_girl - you need to seriously study basic economics. Or, at least, figure out if you are a victim of "class warfare propaganda". You can be anti capitalism and that's okay - but at least know what it is first.

And I'm from a third world country, which, I am proud to say, is not getting any poorer!

And so, if people would just pay attention to the positive things that are happening in CEBU province of the Philippines, you will see how private businesses hand in hand with a government that provides them with the environment to thrive is the formula for ECONOMIC SUCCESS.

I think I've mentioned it somewhere in this forum already - the creation of the Mactan Economic Zones in Cebu. The government provided the soil, the businesses came and planted the fruit trees! With all the record numbers of job losses in cities in America, the Mactan Economic Zones only lost about 500 jobs and 1 company! Cebu remains the most economically successful province in the entire Philippines - beating the capital city of Manila. And, it doesn't even matter what political party controls the governor's seat - all of them support the economic zones since the results are tangible and that any change that causes it to falter will be a huge dip in the ballot box.

I can give you a dissertation of what the Mactan Economic Zones are all about. But, it would be a really long post. In summary, it is a government using capitalism as a tool for economic success, thereby reaping the rewards through increased sustainable revenues. It is almost like playing SIM City with you as the government...

[Guest]

Is it true that material gain is the only thing that can possibly motivate people to work and do a good job? If so, we're in a sad state of affairs.

HEP

Of course material gain is NOT the only thing. But, it's like my husband and I always says - yeah, we'd love to spend 2 or more years on the mission field on top of sending our sons on missions. But - that's not happening unless we got the material means to do so. That is just part of this thing called LIFE.

My dad owns several businesses - does he need the money? Nope. He has this bottle washing company - really stupid sounding company. All it does is collect soda/beer bottles and wash out the debris (cigarette butts, spit, etc.) and deliver it to the beer/soda company. It employes about 30 or so people that do nothing but wash bottles with a high-pressure hose all day long. You can't convince him he should get an automated conveyor washer, even if it requires more money to pay the employees rather than upkeep a conveyor. For him - he is giving 30 people a steady income. You think he is not motivated by money and record profits? Of course he is! It is the only thing that can give him the ability to expand his business so that he can eventually hire 60 people! But, what if, he works his buns off and he doesn't get the money? Then, there is no reason to do so and he would just gladly retire in simple bliss and 30 people would be in the jobless percentage.

And that, my friend, is REALITY.

Edited June 3, 2009 by anatess

[HEthePrimate]

And so, if people would just pay attention to the positive things that are happening in CEBU province of the Philippines, you will see how private businesses hand in hand with a government that provides them with the environment to thrive is the formula for ECONOMIC SUCCESS.

I think I've mentioned it somewhere in this forum already - the creation of the Mactan Economic Zones in Cebu. The government provided the soil, the businesses came and planted the fruit trees! With all the record numbers of job losses in cities in America, the Mactan Economic Zones only lost about 500 jobs and 1 company! Cebu remains the most economically successful province in the entire Philippines - beating the capital city of Manila. And, it doesn't even matter what political party controls the governor's seat - all of them support the economic zones since the results are tangible and that any change that causes it to falter will be a huge dip in the ballot box.

I can give you a dissertation of what the Mactan Economic Zones are all about. But, it would be a really long post. In summary, it is a government using capitalism as a tool for economic success, thereby reaping the rewards through increased sustainable revenues. It is almost like playing SIM City with you as the government...

Interesting. Americans pride themselves on their supposed history of "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps, no-government-handouts, rugged individualism," but if they'd actually study the history, they'd find that the government gave away a great deal of land, mining rights, etc. (after stealing the land from the Indians, of course!). In other words yes, our forefathers/mothers worked hard, but they also relied on government handouts, which is hardly the mythological "free market" system conservatives are always gabbing about today.

HEP

[HEthePrimate]

Of course material gain is NOT the only thing. But, it's like my husband and I always says - yeah, we'd love to spend 2 or more years on the mission field on top of sending our sons on missions. But - that's not happening unless we got the material means to do so. That is just part of this thing called LIFE.

My dad owns several businesses - does he need the money? Nope. He has this bottle washing company - really stupid sounding company. All it does is collect soda/beer bottles and wash out the debris (cigarette butts, spit, etc.) and deliver it to the beer/soda company. It employes about 30 or so people that do nothing but wash bottles with a high-pressure hose all day long. You can't convince him he should get an automated conveyor washer, even if it requires more money to pay the employees rather than upkeep a conveyor. For him - he is giving 30 people a steady income. You think he is not motivated by money and record profits? Of course he is! It is the only thing that can give him the ability to expand his business so that he can eventually hire 60 people! But, what if, he works his buns off and he doesn't get the money? Then, there is no reason to do so and he would just gladly retire in simple bliss and 30 people would be in the jobless percentage.

And that, my friend, is REALITY.

Whoah, back off, Sister! I think you read a lot more into my post than I intended to say.

Your dad is a good and generous man who is helping people. He is not motivated by personal gain to run the business the way he does, but does it to help others--that's what I was talking about. I think we're actually on the same page, my friend.

What I was speaking to was the rather cynical attitude that some people have about human nature, that personal gain/greed is the only thing that motivates people. It ignores the fact that people such as your dad exist, who do things out of altruism and community spirit.

Peace.

HEP

[FunkyTown]

I, too, disagree with economic anarchy HEP. I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism would result in a coalition of powerful companies that would become essentially an economic tyranny.

In the entire history of man, anarchy has been unsustainable. Always, those with power sought to impose barriers with their temporary power to make it permanent.

The problem is that what they're talking about - A truly free market - Has never existed in the entire history of man, much as a truly socialist government has never existed in the entire history of man.

Personally, I think Jennifer Government should be required reading in our schools. :)

[HEthePrimate]

I, too, disagree with economic anarchy HEP. I am of the firm belief that pure capitalism would result in a coalition of powerful companies that would become essentially an economic tyranny.

In the entire history of man, anarchy has been unsustainable. Always, those with power sought to impose barriers with their temporary power to make it permanent.

The problem is that what they're talking about - A truly free market - Has never existed in the entire history of man, much as a truly socialist government has never existed in the entire history of man.

Agreed. I like the way you put it--"economic anarchy." IMO, true freedom requires at least some structure/rules, as opposed to being anarchical. The "law of the jungle" model just doesn't appeal, and as you say is probably unsustainable anyway.

Personally, I think Jennifer Government should be required reading in our schools. :)

Heh, I'll have to check that one out of the library. Thanks for the recommendation!

HEP

[Guest]

Interesting. Americans pride themselves on their supposed history of "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps, no-government-handouts, rugged individualism," but if they'd actually study the history, they'd find that the government gave away a great deal of land, mining rights, etc. (after stealing the land from the Indians, of course!). In other words yes, our forefathers/mothers worked hard, but they also relied on government handouts, which is hardly the mythological "free market" system conservatives are always gabbing about today.

HEP

And it is the American government drafted by the original framers of the constitution that gave the Americans the means to enjoy a free market.

BUT... there is a big difference in today's American government.

Okay, let me tell you something - I grew up in the Philippines under the Marcos regime. During the elections, politicians would put 10 pesos, staple it to a ballot and hand it out at the precincts to encourage people to vote for them. There are a lot of people who will "shop" for the biggest peso stapled to a ballot. And that's how Marcos got into power.

Very 3rd-world, huh?

Well, there's really no difference between the 10 pesos and the "social welfare" handouts happening today in America.

Let's take for example the class warfare that is always used in every single election cycle - Let's tax the rich so that we can give free healthcare to the poor. Sounds like a plan. Well, the problem is, you got a democracy. And there are always more poor people than there are rich. So, if the poor people decide they want a raise, then all they have to do is vote themselves more stuff. They are the majority!

I guess it is back to the simple matter of teaching somebody to fish and providing the fishing ground instead of handing them a fish.

[FunkyTown]

And it is the American government drafted by the original framers of the constitution that gave the Americans the means to enjoy a free market.

What's interesting: I won't repost, but I had recently discussed that there are actual several ways of interpreting the Constitution. Whose interpretation is the correct one, Ana? Is it the Originalists, who use the Federalist Papers, the newspaper articles and the notes from the Constitutional Convention who are correct? Is it the Modernists, who view the Constitution from the lens of today, who argue that the constitution is deliberately vague on many points to allow for a variety of interpretations? Is it the Historical Literalists, who just use the words of the constitution according to what the words meant when it was written? Is it the contemporary literalists who just look at the words of the Constitution as they mean now? Is it the Democratic, who look at the Constitution as a basic skeleton upon which to rest contemporary vision?

Whose interpretation of the Constitution is correct and how will that allow a free market when the US has not had a free market since its inception and, in fact, no place in the world has ever had a free market?

[Prodigal_Son]

All true, but where is the alternative. ...Do you think there are no other options other than socialism and capitalism? I am very afraid. There has to be another option other than Communism.

Hmmm, there's the United Order, but I just don't see that going global right now.

Seriously, the problem you see with capitalism is that men are free to choose! And, sadly, we live in a world where many make poor choices; self-indulgent choices. That's the world we live in.

And you hoping a change in government will fix that is fallacy. Only a change in man's basic nature will empower us to escape the darker deeds of the business world. So I guess that takes us back to missionary work.

If you can not think of anything better than capitalism, it is obvious that creativity is dead and the markets deserve to crash and the English and American systems deserve to fail.

The humor in this statement is that it's bloated government with social programs that we cannot afford that are bankrupting us! Chop our monstrosity of a central government back to Constitutional size and we'll be on the road to recovery in a heartbeat.

Turn off Rush and Hannity and use your brains.

Don't listen to them in the first place.

[Prodigal_Son]

Is it true that material gain is the only thing that can possibly motivate people to work and do a good job? If so, we're in a sad state of affairs.

It's not the ONLY thing, but it is the most POTENT thing. Even for a righteous individual, garnering financial security is the clear path to a freedom that allows us to do all the other things we want to. Financial security affords missions, increases tithing and fast offerings, creates job opportunities for those we know (I worked several jobs in my early years for wealthy church members), it allows brethren to dedicate themselves to demanding callings (ever notice what a high percentage of stake presidents, mission presidents, and often bishops, are financially secure??), etc.

“Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you. But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.” (Jacob 2:17-19)

Interesting. Americans pride themselves on their supposed history of "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps, no-government-handouts, rugged individualism," but if they'd actually study the history, they'd find that the government gave away a great deal of land, mining rights, etc. (after stealing the land from the Indians, of course!). In other words yes, our forefathers/mothers worked hard, but they also relied on government handouts, which is hardly the mythological "free market" system conservatives are always gabbing about today.

That's hardly an argument. Of course they got it from the government! Because the government confiscated/bought/swindled it all. Had Uncle Sam not done so, I'm confident those private enterprises would have simply dealt with the prior owners.

...What I was speaking to was the rather cynical attitude that some people have about human nature, that personal gain/greed is the only thing that motivates people.

I don't think there are too many that closed minded. But it's a simple fact of life that you have to help yourself first before you are in a position to help others (financially, spiritually, mentally, emotionally).

...Well, there's really no difference between the 10 pesos and the "social welfare" handouts happening today in America...

Amen to that. We need to ban ALL lobbyists when we cut the government back down to size.

[Guest]

What's interesting: I won't repost, but I had recently discussed that there are actual several ways of interpreting the Constitution. Whose interpretation is the correct one, Ana? Is it the Originalists, who use the Federalist Papers, the newspaper articles and the notes from the Constitutional Convention who are correct? Is it the Modernists, who view the Constitution from the lens of today, who argue that the constitution is deliberately vague on many points to allow for a variety of interpretations? Is it the Historical Literalists, who just use the words of the constitution according to what the words meant when it was written? Is it the contemporary literalists who just look at the words of the Constitution as they mean now? Is it the Democratic, who look at the Constitution as a basic skeleton upon which to rest contemporary vision?

Whose interpretation of the Constitution is correct and how will that allow a free market when the US has not had a free market since its inception and, in fact, no place in the world has ever had a free market?

I'm not American and the interpretation of the Constitution wasn't really the point of the post. For me - the interpretation of the Constitution is for the Americans to determine - that's why you vote people in office who you think will seat the judges that you feel will do the "spirit" of the Constitution justice.

The point of the post was to establish the fact that the creation of the American government and the American constitution was the historical event that drove the Americans to economic prosperity because it is through a healthy government that you can lay a fertile foundation for a capitalistic economy to flourish.

I apologize for the term free market. The term I was looking for is mixed market leaning towards laissez-faire with the government's role minimized only to the extent of preventing the use of force in market transactions and to prevent fraud. I'm not completely laissez-faire in my views as I am not against taxation. But, I do believe that the quality of the market is inversely proportional to the amount of tax levied on it. Hence, my enthusiastic thumbs up on the Mactan Economic Zone - a low tax zone.

By the way, I completely believe that capitalism, if left well enough alone, is the only means by which hard work is rewarded and greed punished without the benefit of a moral compass - the best way for the honest man to gain and a fool to be parted from his money. Of course, if it was a perfect market, then you won't suffer consequences. As such, it is required that the market players educate themselves so they can be counted among the honest and not the fools.

For a while there, I was applauding the American government's establishment of socialized education as I found it necessary for capitalism. But now, I see the pitfall of how it is being handled - another source for a "10 peso ballot" with education only an after-thought! I was of the understanding that the government will stick to the free market principle of not using force to eliminate competition to maintain quality of education. Apparently, even that is not beyond government! Sad, isn't it? Because it is sooo HUMAN.

Edited June 3, 2009 by anatess

[Islander]

I would recommend a book by Peter Senge; "The Fifth Discipline."

Just because you got into a car crash you do not write off cars all together and cry for public transportation to save you. We are going thru a cycle. Just like the "roaring 20's" gave way to the Great Depression of the 30's and 40's. Some 40 years of very high tension during the cold war where America was at the bring of pulling the nuclear trigger ended without a shot being fired. These are cycles. We had a decade of unrestrained excess, wildly speculative markets and unsustainable consumption. A correction was in order and here we are. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Capitalism works and as a socio-economic system has proven to be a fair, balanced, less repressive, more transparent and conducive to wealth creation and the well being of the people than any other system in recorded history. Only God can do it better so we should wait for the Savior rather than try and cook something up in our spare time with our word processor.

Governments do not fix anything, improve anything or create anything. They are entropic consumption and cost centers that ultimately depend on ever increasing taxation to support themselves with little regard for the source of that revenue.

The best and the brightest never work for the government for any sustainable period of time. Some 6 months ago some of the brightest business minds in this country pointed out the the automakers needed to go into a managed bankruptcy in order to survive. There is video of the cacophony of congress saying "that will never happen...it is unthinkable..." Here we are half a year and 30 billion dollars later. Government needs to stick to the business of government as our Founding Fathers intended.

[prisonchaplain]

:::sigh::: the semantics of socialism vs. capitalism.We've always had something of a mixed economy in the U.S. The Democrats favored more social welfare, less defense, and were more willing to use the heavy hand of government regulation. Republicans wanted stronger defense, less social welfare, and a light hand on the regulations. So, we're in an economic mess right now, and it turns out something wealthy smart folk took advantage of the weak regulation and oversight. So, perhaps more is needed.

I see absolutely no repudiation of general capitalism, and, in today's world, a strong defense makes sense. In the short term, we're looking at more defense and social welfare spending. IMHO, over time, the welfare will have to reduce once again. Also, after a certain period of overregulation, me hopes it will lighten some--though not too much.

Our basic system is solid, and over time Republicans will find an eloquent voice to rise up with an alternative. However, with Obama barely 6-months in office, it may be a bit longer. Patience is a fruit of the Spirit.

[ColorMEreal]

For 5,ooo years mankind progressed at the rate of a butterfly cocooned in infancy. The last 2,000 have gone by a bit faster in progessive terms, in particular the last 300 or so years. Why do you think that is so? Science and technological advances of all kinds have flourished over night. The freedom to seek out and find new avenues have been unleashed.

I believe and MANY believe this was all possible because TRUE FREEDOM was restored to the Earth. Our Nation was born and the Gospel of Jesus Christ was also restored to the Earth again. No Nation before us ever took such a STAND or such a CLAIM on Freedom and Liberty for all.

A funny thing happens when a true democracy is born. A marvelous, beautiful thing happens. Gods children (WE) begin to grow and prosper. The greatest of human potentials are unleashed upon the world. Good things and Bad things do come of it.

I'm just thankful for the Journey and the Chance.

[a-train]

Capitalism isn't gone. It isn't whimpering. It isn't even hurting. It is utterly destroying the phony economic planning that has been heaped upon the American people for almost a century. What brought down all the crony bankers last year? Free market capitalism. The planners are running around like chickens without heads trying to put their humpty dumpty schemes back together again and at every turn the free market is smashing the pieces. There is no turning back here, the child has proclaimed that the emperor has no clothes and the masses are just now seeing his nakedness.

The same thing has happened to European socialists time and time again in the last century. The program is easy to understand. The people believe in their Midas. Whether he is a particular ruler, a vangaurd, an organization, or the philosophy of "planning" itself, they see the same thing. They truly believe that whatever he or it touches turns to gold. But in the end, the phony gold tarnishes, the green skin under the rings on everyone's fingers becomes apparent, and faith is lost. That is when the bust sets in and the Midas and all those that have invested with him lose their shirt.

The fear that we are moving into more slavery may not be misplaced, but do not forget that the swifter we move into the planning schemes of the intelligensia, the faster their foolishness becomes apparent and their destruction falls on their heads.

What we are witnessing is not the death of capitalism, it is the death of socialism.

-a-train

[a-train]

So, we're in an economic mess right now, and it turns out something wealthy smart folk took advantage of the weak regulation and oversight. So, perhaps more is needed.

The blame for the economic downturn on the Bush years "deregulation" is nothing but an attempt to shift blame from the REAL cause. The real cause is the monetary system upheld by our government. The debt-based fiat system is what caused the great depression, even John Maynard Keynes believed that. It is what caused our current downturn. It has been the most powerful force in producing economic convulsions all along. A free-market commodity money system without the fractional reserve operation would solve this problem. And it would do so better then ever now that we have an electronically networked banking and merchant service system. I doubt it is possible to prevent our eventual turn to a hard money economy as so many developments continue to push us in that direction.

-a-train

[ColorMEreal]

I agree with much of what your saying. I think there is a lot of corruption with the invisible dollar. You can't really FEEL money in your hand anymore. At least in the old days a person could feel a gold coin in their hand. Somehow it all ends up in the hedgehound/hedgefund accounts at the end of the day.

Capitalism and a free enterprise was very much apart of the over all dream in the beginning. This was always a part of the dream, when the birth of our country was finally realized.