why do you believe

[mountthepavement]

.and then God illuminates the way ahead of us and teaches us the new and the old and sometimes even stuff that is unknown to the rest of the world.

Can you give me an example in history and also an example in your own life of some novel knowledge gained in this way?

[bmy-]

Do the gods interact with humanity spiritually or materially? From afar, or was Jesus an ambassador, a physical guest? Perhaps he was engineered to appear and in fact be human yet know of his godly origins? If they interact with humanity spiritually, how is that accomplished?

I would think that spirit = matter (which is LDS doctrine) and is detectable by more advanced tools than we currently have. We then could take this a step further and consider the idea that there is no real reason that the body must die -- it simply does. We believe these bodies are shells (tabernacles) and perhaps they just store our 'essence' or even clone us (which in an odd way would lead to our salvation).

There's not a lick of evidence for this (outside of the life being deposited from other planets, at least).. it's unbacked speculation. Empirically speaking there is no real reason to believe in God.. but that doesn't mean they are non-existant.

What is the difference between a god, a human, a sentient creature, and any-old life-form? Is it qualitative or quantitative?

I would say that any race has the potential to eventually become 'Gods'. The vast majority of species will die out sooner or later.. the ones who become civilizations, avoid self-destruction, and become type II or higher civilizations are the ones who become 'Gods' or 'Creators'.

The part about 'immortality' is the hardest bit to swallow. Androids maybe? I always found it interesting how the sci-fi of today is the science of tomorrow. One more thing to consider is that just perhaps we're the first generation of life capable of colonizing other planets.. and that we are literally to become the 'Gods'.

[mountthepavement]

If we can communicate through sharing links, or ask questions indirectly that way, here is a link.

COmmuNICATION

[mountthepavement]

I would think that spirit = matter (which is LDS doctrine) and is detectable by more advanced tools than we currently have. We then could take this a step further and consider the idea that there is no real reason that the body must die -- it simply does. We believe these bodies are shells (tabernacles) and perhaps they just store our 'essence' or even clone us (which in an odd way would lead to our salvation).

There's not a lick of evidence for this (outside of the life being deposited from other planets, at least).. it's unbacked speculation. Empirically speaking there is no real reason to believe in God.. but that doesn't mean they are non-existant.

I would say that any race has the potential to eventually become 'Gods'. The vast majority of species will die out sooner or later.. the ones who become civilizations, avoid self-destruction, and become type II or higher civilizations are the ones who become 'Gods' or 'Creators'.

The part about 'immortality' is the hardest bit to swallow. Androids maybe? I always found it interesting how the sci-fi of today is the science of tomorrow. One more thing to consider is that just perhaps we're the first generation of life capable of colonizing other planets.. and that we are literally to become the 'Gods'.

Also, I take it that speculation in LDS is not really discouraged but is described as utterly inessential or highly optional, and you just have the kind of interests that lead you to or you merely take fun in thinking about some speculative stuff yourself?

That was an interesting bit about spirit=matter in LDS. I didn't know that. ...

Are you suggesting that god is a relative (or relational) term? -- that the gods are that because we are their subjects?

Also, do you hold the highest priesthood in LDS -- isn't that the order of Melchizedek? Or just the order of aaron? Or whatever they are called. Just trying to get an idea of how representative you may or may not be of LDS thought. You seem very much an individual either way. I'm not saying Mormons aren't individuals or are uniform in their thought, but one can't help looking for patterns in a self-designated grouping of people.

Edited June 9, 2009 by mountthepavement
adding more

[NeuroTypical]

What I am hearing is a description of what you call the Holy Ghost, I see. No to be flippant, but do you think that this sensation (I accept that you say it is not emotional but rather some kind of physical sensation) is correlated with a particular neurochemical, say, oxytocin?

I've had a passing aquaintance with substances that affect brain chemistry, and there are some similarities I suppose. There is also a fairly hefty difference or two - namely - I was once able to "flip" this sensation on and off like a light switch by asking the same question over and over again across the space of a minute or two.

"Lord, should I do this?" [nothing]

"Lord, should I not do this?" [felt spirit]

"Lord, should I do this?" [nothing]

"Lord, should I do this?" [felt spirit]

To the best of my knowledge, it's not possible to make brain chemical work and stop working this quickly.

Also, another follow-up if you'll permit me: Who is your neighbor?

I must admit not having the time to follow all the intricacies of this thread - I just scanned for anything for me. So forgive me if I misunderstand. I'll assume you're asking in the context of the two great commandments, one of them being "love thy neighbor". My answer: Just about any fellow human being on the planet earth who I come into contact with is my neighbor. Even my brother-in-law, whom I helped put behind bars for 5-life.

LM

[Hemidakota]

I guess this could be answered in a rather lengthy way, but if you will, permit me to conduct an informal poll in which responders are asked to generally describe the TYPE of their criteria for belief, such as:

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

In interest of full disclosure I am not LDS but I am interested in your particular individual experiences and beliefs! Hopefully, my agenda is simply to ask questions and listen charitably.

Thanks!

--mountthepavement

Number 4....personal communication with God

[Justice]

Belief and knowledge:

First you hear the word of God. If you recognize the spirit and feel its presence you can believe it is true.

Then you hope that what it promises is true.

Then you begin to act and move, or show evidence of your belief. This is called faith.

When you see and feel the spirit in your actions the spirit can let you feel that it is true. Then you know it is true.

You cannot know a spiritual truth until after the trial of your faith (in 1 Peter 1: 7?).

[mountthepavement]

I've had a passing aquaintance with substances that affect brain chemistry, and there are some similarities I suppose. There is also a fairly hefty difference or two - namely - I was once able to "flip" this sensation on and off like a light switch by asking the same question over and over again across the space of a minute or two.

"Lord, should I do this?" [nothing]

"Lord, should I not do this?" [felt spirit]

"Lord, should I do this?" [nothing]

"Lord, should I do this?" [felt spirit]

To the best of my knowledge, it's not possible to make brain chemical work and stop working this quickly.

I must admit not having the time to follow all the intricacies of this thread - I just scanned for anything for me. So forgive me if I misunderstand. I'll assume you're asking in the context of the two great commandments, one of them being "love thy neighbor". My answer: Just about any fellow human being on the planet earth who I come into contact with is my neighbor. Even my brother-in-law, whom I helped put behind bars for 5-life.

LM

Wow about your brother. No doubt an amazing story. I'm not going to pry, but I feel for you!

Thanks for your response. Don't worry about intricacies of the thread! I'm just asking questions, and y'all are being good to oblige me with time and answers.

Maybe I'll get back to the neighbor topic with you! I think a neighbor is better understood as anyone in need, not just anyone around you exactly. Agree, disagree, etc.?

[mountthepavement]

Number 4....personal communication with God

Which of the five senses? :) (Sorry for the funny way of asking the question if it strikes as such.) I mean, probably speaking with God, right?

Tell me more please, if you will!

Thanks, and hi.

[mountthepavement]

When you see and feel the spirit in your actions the spirit can let you feel that it is true. Then you know it is true.

The jump from "feel" to "know" is not an obvious one to John Q. Public. Seems like a lot is going on there. I think that falls under the category you suggested I start a new thread on though.

You cannot know a spiritual truth until after the trial of your faith (in 1 Peter 1: 7?).

What does that trial mean to you? An actual event (perhaps at the end of time)? Or life as a whole?

[pam]

Wow about your brother. No doubt an amazing story. I'm not going to pry, but I feel for you!

Thanks for your response. Don't worry about intricacies of the thread! I'm just asking questions, and y'all are being good to oblige me with time and answers.

Maybe I'll get back to the neighbor topic with you! I think a neighbor is better understood as anyone in need, not just anyone around you exactly. Agree, disagree, etc.?

Yes I would agree with your assessment of the definition of neighbor. I don't think it necessarily means the person living next door to you or down the street but anyone we might come into contact with that might need assistance.

[mountthepavement]

Yes I would agree with your assessment of the definition of neighbor. I don't think it necessarily means the person living next door to you or down the street but anyone we might come into contact with that might need assistance.

cool

[mountthepavement]

Farewell bmy. Don't know whatcha did, but it was interesting chatting on this thread anyway.

Edited June 10, 2009 by mountthepavement

[mountthepavement]

Yes, I think faith does include following the spiritual guidances that come from God. It is less concrete at first.

I think faith is best understood by appealing to scripture. So if you don't mind, I think I will copy and paste a little Alma 32, cuz I think these words say it better than I could. Why don't you read this first, and then we can explore personal experience.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men but women also. Now this is not all; little children do have words given unto them many times, which confound the wise and the learned.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your aground is bbarren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with apatience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

Hello,

I think I mentioned I reread this passage. It is interesting. I would very much like to continue to discuss this particular passage.

I hope I can ask an interesting, sensible and thought-provoking question to generate discussion in this direction.

This passage seems to develop as it goes along. What is its starting place? In particular, what is the assumed starting place, which is also from my perspective the inevitable starting place for the LDS faith, if not an experience of, say, a question in one's mind concerning god, whether he is real, whether one ought to believe, etc. But what stirs this sort of thought in someone's mind? What would lead one to such a question: From a purely worldly point of view, questions about whether god indeed exists might very well be completely inessential and optional. Thus, one can only be brought to such a question by feeling some lack of fulfillment with the purely worldly approach to life, no?

Can we denote such a state as "anxiety"? Disregarding whatever else you may think about the word, if you will for the moment, allow this convenient word to denote the state which corresponds to a need beyond the worldly for the remainder of this particular post.

Given that, it seems to me that the process described by the author above (Alma?) is one of more and more PERMANENTLY entrusting the assuagement of this anxiety to an (putatively supernatural) event in the FUTURE. I would like you to consider carefully how the words permanent and future interact.

A fair analogy, it seems to me, and I would like to know whether you agree, is that of rolling over debt, or, if you prefer, an investment. The holy spirit (etc.) appears to continually "roll-over" our debt/investment throughout our lives until we finally either reap the rewards or face the consequences at the end of time.

Neat!

[Maya]

I guess this could be answered in a rather lengthy way, but if you will, permit me to conduct an informal poll in which responders are asked to generally describe the TYPE of their criteria for belief, such as:

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

In interest of full disclosure I am not LDS but I am interested in your particular individual experiences and beliefs! Hopefully, my agenda is simply to ask questions and listen charitably.

Thanks!

--mountthepavement

Hi m.. sorry I have not answered earlier. I am European so I sleep when you are awake.. persuming you are from USA. I also got some work that could not wait and tok quite a while.

Looks like you have got a god conversation on here... well I have not red the answers, but a t least there are many.

Lets see. Testimony. About testimony in general. I was brought up in a lutheran family where my both grandfathers were preasts. My motehr put me in a Sundayschool as very little. I grew to like it so much that I wanted to attend every Sunday. The teachers and my family managed to teach me about the love of my HF and Jesus. I remember I felt really a lot of love thowards them... and that has never changed. That is the basics where my belief later was build on.

As I grew older I needed the locic in it too. When I was a tean I remember I did have really rebellous feelings. I was mad at God making the world and us the way we were. But I never was so mad that I would have gone from Him. I have always posessed an understanding of that there are more important things than me and taht HF may be busy and cant answer me now. This has helped me to overcome questions I have. I ahve never required my question to be answered here and NOW... but I have been able to wait... maybe with a bit murmuring thoung.

Later as I met the missionaries I loved to listen to them. I loved to listen to others stories, but I am a pretty stubborn person (ask my DH) and I usually do as I please, as I did here too. Well actually I usually did what my parents wished, but not this time.

I really can not say the moment when I knew the LDS Church is true. I just never had a doubt about it. I did go trough the invertigation, but it was for me more like aquering more knowledge to what I already had, which I knew was true.

I enjoy others experiences and the similarities in our stories as well as the differences. But I never could live on someones elses testimony. Even though I am interested in sience and history I wont let the "new founds" blind me. How many times we have found something and tought that was the final truth and then found more... which denies our final truth. I see the crashes to be due our limited knowledge and one day we will know more.

My communication with God/Jesus... uh. I am just beginning to recover of a time when I did not even want to hear, I had put my hands on my ears and closed my eyes crying, my pain was too much. I used to have dreams. I prayed that they would stop, I think they did, now I pray to get them back. I usually talk to Him all day and "see" His smiling patiet smile. He is a friend, a big brother that wont ever leave me. He may stay a few steps behind or on my side, but never goes away. I am the one wondering here and there... always returning to Him to His safety.

[pam]

Farewell bmy. Don't know whatcha did, but it was interesting chatting on this thread anyway.

He will be back shortly. Just taking a little break.

[Misshalfway]

Hello Mount.....sorry I haven't been back to this thread in a little while. Life is busy. :)

Let me see if I can answer briefly your few questions to me.

I am thinking more about how faith and knowledge are connected. I see you have already discussed this.

So, do I have this right?: We recognize LDS as an hypothesis or claim among many. We test this hypothesis through a suspension of disbelief (is this faith yet?), and we receive a confirmation in the form of a warm to burning sensation :) and sense of peace and truth. The association of this unique experience is then sufficient to tag our heretofore hypothesis as knowledge.

I may have simplified it, but do I have the gist?

So, is faith the same as willful "suspension of disbelief"? I think I am unable to predict your answer to this question.

Yes. I think you have the gist. But I would say that gaining the first confirmation of something (whether it be the truthfulness of the church or some gospel concept) is ONLY a starting point. One must continue on the path of exercising faith and being obedient to continue building ones testimony (as we call it ). A testimony is a fluid thing....it ebs and flows and grows and contracts all according to our faithfulness.

Yes. Maybe I do see faith as some sort of willful decision not to disbelieve. But I see it more like a disciplining of ones doubt and fear. We all feel the fear. Darkness inspires such and makes most want to turn and run.....or at least back away to something safer. But I don't see faith as some wreckless, blind circumstance where one is running to and fro waiting for truth to hit them. Faith must be based in truth. It must be supported by some sort of reason to believe what is being taught .....and I would think that this "reason(s)" would be given by the Spirit of God in the form of desire or inner knowing that something about this "thing" is right or true -- the inspiration that leads one to thirst for more or to find determination to discover.

Hope I am making sense. Faith is a disciplined exercise.....one that is supported by deity every step of the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

And I think it would be easy to dismiss as hormones or even some prideful delusion if one wasn't able to discern. I think that is why the testing for me has made the difference because it has taught a little of how to discern.

(Rereading)

What does discern mean in this context?

Well, what do you think it means to discern? To me, it is the ability to see (in this case with spiritual eyes) something that perhaps others might not see or understand. It is seeing in wisdom and vision and truth.

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

.and then God illuminates the way ahead of us and teaches us the new and the old and sometimes even stuff that is unknown to the rest of the world.

Can you give me an example in history and also an example in your own life of some novel knowledge gained in this way?

The first historical example I would use would be Christopher Columbus. I think his own record is clear that he was led by God to know things before they could be known. It was that pre-knowledge that drove him to continue searching for the realization of such discovery.

ANd with my own life......goodness!....we could be here all day :). I have been led and taught in so many different/simple areas of my life. Many times where I wrestled over some question, and then after my prayers were offered, someone would come with the answer or some idea I never thought of before would enter my mind. Sometimes the knowledge comes spontaneously as I sit and talk with a person and something about that person's needs or intentions are revealed to me as a warning or a commandment. One time, I needed an "out" of the circumstances of my life. I didn't even kneel to pray....just sent up a heart felt plea of desperation to God. He told me to put the for sale sign on my house. I thought that was too scary. The next week, my husband had a new job offer with higher pay in a different city. I put the house on the market that next morning and I had a buyer by 4 pm. It all just came together in a matter of minutes literally! The knowledge of what to do was there, I just had to move forward in faith that God knew best and had my back and He did! The mountain in front of me was moved. The pain in my heart and life was relieved. And I still sit in amazement of how fast it happened and then how good it has been for our family and our lives. Simple and insignificant to the rest of you, I know, but everything to me.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Hello,

I think I mentioned I reread this passage. It is interesting. I would very much like to continue to discuss this particular passage.

I hope I can ask an interesting, sensible and thought-provoking question to generate discussion in this direction.

This passage seems to develop as it goes along. What is its starting place? In particular, what is the assumed starting place, which is also from my perspective the inevitable starting place for the LDS faith, if not an experience of, say, a question in one's mind concerning god, whether he is real, whether one ought to believe, etc. But what stirs this sort of thought in someone's mind? What would lead one to such a question: From a purely worldly point of view, questions about whether god indeed exists might very well be completely inessential and optional. Thus, one can only be brought to such a question by feeling some lack of fulfillment with the purely worldly approach to life, no?

Can we denote such a state as "anxiety"? Disregarding whatever else you may think about the word, if you will for the moment, allow this convenient word to denote the state which corresponds to a need beyond the worldly for the remainder of this particular post.

Given that, it seems to me that the process described by the author above (Alma?) is one of more and more PERMANENTLY entrusting the assuagement of this anxiety to an (putatively supernatural) event in the FUTURE. I would like you to consider carefully how the words permanent and future interact.

A fair analogy, it seems to me, and I would like to know whether you agree, is that of rolling over debt, or, if you prefer, an investment. The holy spirit (etc.) appears to continually "roll-over" our debt/investment throughout our lives until we finally either reap the rewards or face the consequences at the end of time.

Neat!

Oh. Forgot this one.

Where is the starting place for faith? Gosh, it could be anything. Maybe someone longs for something. Maybe someone knows there is truth and is yearning for it. Maybe someone is simply invited by a believer to come to see and taste more. Everyone is on an individual journey. It matters less how ones comes to the place where desire turns to action. The road of faith is for everyone as Father in Heaven wants all his children home. So, I would suppose that he would lead everyone to the water and help the drink in whatever way would be best for each one.

Yes. I like the debt/investment analogy.....especially when you factor in the Atonement of Jesus to the mix. That is when this process becomes fundamentally and absolutely powerful.

And faith is all about the future! And the path to knowledge is most definitely meant to be a permanent marriage of truth and the lover of truth. Can't argue with that.

[mountthepavement]

Yes. I like the debt/investment analogy.....especially when you factor in the Atonement of Jesus to the mix. That is when this process becomes fundamentally and absolutely powerful.

That's cool you like it. What would the atonement be? Would Jesus be the FDIC, a guarantor, a failsafe when our own efforts fall short? It's not like the analogy has to cover everything though.

You know, the word, redemption -- and I don't know whether it is a useful one in LDS -- refers to exchange of a promissory note of some kind for the object or value of its promise. Is "redemption" biblical? I'm not sure I know for sure.

Also concerning, the "future" and "permanence," it seems to me the anxiety is never assuaged in this lifetime, but, tentatively at first, more and more assurance of its assuagement in the future is given by LDS concepts and accepted as true by the believer/ nascent spiritual discerner. Thought of within the faith, which is full of promise and positivity, and protection from putatively negative emotions like fear, as you say, this would seem a good thing. However, it might seem fair to an outsider to think of this as permanent avoidance of a certain important sense that things aren't quite right, namely the anxiety that the material world is not sufficient for one. Again, the practitioner of faith may find this conception also a delight -- one would hope to put off fear, as it were, for one's entire life, to defer dread, and to let anxiety slide away -- if it be to the "future", as long as that future is infinitely far off (permanently deferred) one is in the clear.

However, objectively, or, say, abjectly, one could ask the question, might this anxiety be an important thing in itself to a self? Might its permanent deferment represent a struggle to forget or dull its exigency?

Edited June 11, 2009 by mountthepavement
awkward wording/typo

[Justice]

The jump from "feel" to "know" is not an obvious one to John Q. Public. Seems like a lot is going on there.

I suppose it's not obvious.

I always say that the majority will never decide truth anyway.

What does that trial mean to you? An actual event (perhaps at the end of time)? Or life as a whole?

It really can be both. If you're trying to learn the truth of a principle, then it can be done by doing. Sometimes it takes a lifetime to learn a harder lesson.

[mountthepavement]

I always say that the majority will never decide truth anyway.

Do you mean, "decide to tell the truth"?

[Hemidakota]

Many will not be part of TRUTH.

[mountthepavement]

Many will not be part of TRUTH.

Is this shorthand for, "many are willful liars"? Just trying to kind of make your language more straightforward, for me, if possible.

[mountthepavement]

I am a convert. I am here because of #4.

from my personal history...

Does the personal history quote stuff fall under the category of personal communication with god?

Thanks!

[Hemidakota]

TRUTH = Jesus the Christ

As you resolve in your hearts to live the standards of the Church-and you cannot afford to do otherwise from a material standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint, from the standpoint of getting ahead in the world-I hope you will remember that your prescribed standards are a part of a great body of truth-the gospel of Jesus Christ-revealed truth from heaven. Please remember that no discovery of the future will ever be in conflict with the teachings of the gospel. The gospel encompasses all truth. When doubts come to your mind because of instructions you may receive in the classroom, I urge you to remember that time is always on the side of truth, and Mormonism is truth. (CR April 1959, Improvement Era 62 [June 1959]: 457.)