Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[john doe]

Is this the part about faith?

No, I was referring to chapter 32.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—afaith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye bhope for things which are cnot seen, which are true. 22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is amerciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

23 And now, he imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, anot only men but women also. Now this is not all; little bchildren do have words given unto them many times, which cconfound the wise and the learned.

24 And now, my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye shall do because ye are afflicted and cast out—now I do not desire that ye should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is true—

25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who awould humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might.

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your cheart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own alikeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your aknowledge bperfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your cfaith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is bgood, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye aneglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your aground is bbarren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the atree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with apatience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree bspringing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your adiligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the bfruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall areap the brewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth cfruit unto you.

But you're not starting at the beginning like I said. You are missing vital parts of the story by cherry-picking portions if you don't know the background they are given in. Again, I urge you to start from the front of the book and read it through. It gives context.

Edited June 15, 2009 by john doe

[aj4u]

I don't take everything written in the Journal of Discourses as gospel doctrine. They aren't scripture and many times were the opinions of the Prophets at the time. That's where the quote is taken from.

Okay, as i mentioned, I 'll take your word for it, but I bet at the time of that teaching many believe it was straight from the mouth of God. Why would the teachings from the living prophets you follow today be any different than that of Brigham Young's yesterday?

[pam]

We've had several Prophets since Brigham Young's time. Each of them receive revelation. And yes there are times when it overrides what a previous Prophet spoke and taught. New revelation is received as needed or is appropriate for the times. We believe that our Prophets receive this revelation directly from our Heavenly Father.

[Carl62]

Okay, as i mentioned, I 'll take your word for it, but I bet at the time of that teaching many believe it was straight from the mouth of God.

They may have. Then again, they may not have. How do you know?

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't know that it's that it never 'caught on', rather the teaching is not contained in any canonized work. Therefore it is not binding on us. While it may possibly be a true proposition, we are not obligated to defend it as doctrine. The Journal of Discourses is a record of sermons, but not all contained in it is binding on us. For some of it, the records may not have been entirely accurate. It's a nice reference, and fleshes out some early church ideas, but the Lord does not hold us liable to believe all of it.

Yes I fully understand that of which you speak.

Sometimes when you see me put something in quotes, I am saying something more then what is written in plain sight.

My point was a little sarcastic I do not wish to admit:mellow:

but will do so here for clarity.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

They may have. Then again, they may not have. How do you know?

Yes, and if you had been alive in Peters or Paul's time and heard the preaching of the early Apostles I am sure

that things were said that the people who heard it thought it was the very words of God, just because they

were uttered by one of Jesus Apostles.

Yet I am sure that many of the things taught never made it into what we call Scripture.

If someone was to dig up some writing of Paul's and it was to contradict a teaching we have of his or Jesus,

many today would say, See! the Bible is not true.

But such is the case with things that are later discarded and useful maybe for study and for getting a

big picture of the times and all like the Apocrypha, but it is not Scripture.

Clear as mud?

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Wish they would include both quotes in these replies it would make things a lot clearer.

I see others have the ability to type out script to place boxes in boxes

but that is much to complicated for my feeble mind.

Doing good just to respond:)

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 15, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[Carl62]

Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!

But have you actually READ it, from cover to cover?

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . .Also according to lds.org . . .

"After we are resurrected, we will be brought before our Father in Heaven to be judged for the last time. This is called the Last Judgment. This last judgment will decide where we will go to live forever. We will be judged by the things we said and did and thought in this life. We will be judged by how well we followed Jesus’ teachings. We will be judged by records that have been kept both on this earth and in heaven. Our Father in Heaven will have Jesus judge us."

Pam . . . which part of lds.org did the above quote come from? Was it from canonized scripture?

I have to say that untangling the utterances of LDS prophets is as challenging as interpreting some scripture passages in The Holy Bible.

[aj4u]

They may have. Then again, they may not have. How do you know?

I know from you. You believe the prophets that now speak to you from God. Therefore, the Mormons that went on before you did the same. If not, than I would like to hear your explanation. How do you know that those that go ahead of you won't say the say the same about the prophets you follow now? Where is the stability of a word from the Lord? Where do you draw the line? What do you have to judge if a word is from the Lord or not? How can one prevent themselves from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine? It doesn't seem to me that LDS modern teaching is bringing clarity to me. I am getting more confused as I read the BOM and listen to what everyone is sharing. Know ye therefore, and understand that the Word of the Lord is forever established unchangeable in the heavens and the earth. BTW, that is not a quote from the Bible; it is my quote! Edited June 15, 2009 by aj4u

[Guest TheLutheran]

. . .Also according to lds.org . . .

"After we are resurrected, we will be brought before our Father in Heaven to be judged for the last time. This is called the Last Judgment. This last judgment will decide where we will go to live forever. We will be judged by the things we said and did and thought in this life. We will be judged by how well we followed Jesus’ teachings. We will be judged by records that have been kept both on this earth and in heaven. Our Father in Heaven will have Jesus judge us."

Pam . . . which part of lds.org did the above quote come from? Was it from canonized scripture?

I have to say that sometimes untangling the utterances of LDS prophets is just as challenging as interpreting some scripture passages in The Holy Bible.

[ztodd]

I found the following quote in an article written by Robert L. Millet for the June 1994 Ensign entitled "Joseph Smith Among The Prophets" at lds.org:

"President Brigham Young uttered this bold statement: “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians … that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ. … "

Is lds.org a reliable source?

I have heard this taught in church before, and I believe it is true. It presents no problem to me. I do not worship Joseph Smith, but I do recognize his authority as the head of this last dispensation of the gospel. He is a chosen leader in God's kingdom, but of course he is not as high in authority as Jesus Christ. The Savior will be the final judge.

[Kawazu]

I know from you. You believe the prophets that now speak to you from God. Therefore, the Mormons that went on before you did the same. If not, than I would like to hear your explanation. How do you know that those that go ahead of you won't say the say the same about the prophets you follow now? Where is the stability of a word from the Lord? Where do you draw the line?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fairlds.org%2FFAIR_Brochures%2FWhat_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf&ei=cSz-SdiaHJy6tAOliKXYAQ&usg=AFQjCNGhW7Um9rboSauJDmNrfXm4CIe7-g&sig2=_I_upveo8ZTuLjadiiuyuQ

A PDF link by FAIRlds which explains what is official doctrine of the Church.

[Elgama]

Pam . . . which part of lds.org did the above quote come from? Was it from canonized scripture?

I have to say that untangling the utterances of LDS prophets is as challenging as interpreting some scripture passages in The Holy Bible.

thats what President Monson is for:) like people have said in this post contradictions are there because humans are involved, because we have a current prophet they are of no issue.

-Charley

[Elgama]

I know from you. You believe the prophets that now speak to you from God. Therefore, the Mormons that went on before you did the same. If not, than I would like to hear your explanation. How do you know that those that go ahead of you won't say the say the same about the prophets you follow now? Where is the stability of a word from the Lord? Where do you draw the line? What do you have to judge if a word is from the Lord or not? How can one prevent themselves from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine? It doesn't seem to me that LDS modern teaching is bringing clarity to me. I am getting more confused as I read the BOM and listen to what everyone is sharing. Know ye therefore, and understand that the Word of the Lord is forever established unchangeable in the heavens and the earth. BTW, that is not a quote from the Bible; it is my quote!

Do you understand scripture the same way as you did 5 years ago?

For us personal growth is the reason we are here, whilst God is unchangeable the humans he gets involved with are not, the world is not the same as it was at creation it has evolved to where we are in 2009, not every culture is the same etc everyone becomes a Latter Day Saint at a different level or understanding.

Want to know what we believe sure read the Book of Mormon, but also approach General Conference with prayer and a readiness to grow and be taught. Take notes decide where your family will be growing now.

We have complete consistency and clarity because we have President Monson, Joseph Smith taught what was right for his day, Abraham for his day there are strong truths in there and a lot for us to learn but its is President Monson that offers the clarity the saints today are ready to understand and need to guide us.

Rely only on the Bible and not personal revelation and modern prophets and you can only live the gospel to the standards set in an earlier day. Rely on Personal Revelation, General Conference and President Monson and you live the standards set for 2009, a time when many in the world are capable of a lot more than they were 2000 years ago. I use the current measure to read my scriptures with, attend the temple with, when doing that tremendous clarity is afforded to you, I would even suggest without the temple and General Conference you can't understand the Bible properly, and you will see more contradictions and confusion than exist in my mind.

Which is why I do understand your urgency to go round in circles, because Christianity without evolution of prophecy as you call it does go round in circles never moving forward. With modern revelation both personal and prophetic it moves constantly forward, and with each prophet there is a major leap forward, I felt it when President Hunter took over, then President Hinckley and now President Monson with each one the understanding is more full. So for me General Conference trumps what even Joseph Smith said

-Charley

[Elgama]

I have heard this taught in church before, and I believe it is true. It presents no problem to me. I do not worship Joseph Smith, but I do recognize his authority as the head of this last dispensation of the gospel. He is a chosen leader in God's kingdom, but of course he is not as high in authority as Jesus Christ. The Savior will be the final judge.

I agree ultimately he will only have that authority if he was 'one' with the Father and the Son in mind and spirit, and it will be them giving him that authority

Its like receiving a blessing, the blessing is from Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ but given by a priesthood holder. I have great faith that the judgement will be fair as a result its unimportant - all I can do is live my life

-Charley

Edited June 15, 2009 by Elgama

[Kawazu]

Hi,

I assume you mean along with Moses, the 12 Apostles, and others of the Lord's servants?

[Elgama]

Hi,

I assume you mean along with Moses, the 12 Apostles, and others of the Lord's servants?

if you are talking to me yes, for me they are important however nothing is more important than my relationship with God now in 2009, and to progress that President Monson is where we are at

-Charley

[rameumptom]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

What does this have to do with the thread you started? Are you jumping around again, rather than staying on topic?

[rameumptom]

I know from you. You believe the prophets that now speak to you from God. Therefore, the Mormons that went on before you did the same. If not, than I would like to hear your explanation. How do you know that those that go ahead of you won't say the say the same about the prophets you follow now? Where is the stability of a word from the Lord? Where do you draw the line? What do you have to judge if a word is from the Lord or not? How can one prevent themselves from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine? It doesn't seem to me that LDS modern teaching is bringing clarity to me. I am getting more confused as I read the BOM and listen to what everyone is sharing. Know ye therefore, and understand that the Word of the Lord is forever established unchangeable in the heavens and the earth. BTW, that is not a quote from the Bible; it is my quote!

I guess then that you need to reject the Bible. Why? Because it contradicts with your statement here. Was the gospel static throughout the Bible? No. It changed. As there were new prophets getting guidance for their day, the Lord gave them new info, changes and deletions. Moses stated that the Law he was given was an eternal covenant. Yet, Christ claimed he fulfilled it. How can that be?

Either it is like Mormons believe, that a living prophet can update/change/add/delete from the teachings of older prophets; OR it is like you said, that it cannot ever change. Therefore, you either have to accept the Mormon position, or reject the Bible.

Which one are you going to do? Or are you again going to ignore this post, and ask a new and different question so as to keep the target moving so you do not get nailed down?

[rameumptom]

Okay, as i mentioned, I 'll take your word for it, but I bet at the time of that teaching many believe it was straight from the mouth of God. Why would the teachings from the living prophets you follow today be any different than that of Brigham Young's yesterday?

I actually do believe that Joseph Smith will be among the judges for those wishing to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Of course, Jesus stated that the original 12 apostles would also be judges over Israel. I also believe we will be judged by the current prophet and apostles for the days in which we live.

Brigham Young taught that we would have to go before several "sentinels" or judges prior to the final judgment with Christ. This is in accord with the Bible AND many ancient Christian writings, such as the Apocalypse of Paul.

However, I believe that the final Judge of all is Jesus Christ. He will make the final decision, as that is his right.

That said, why do you feel this issue is a problem or contradictory in anyway? If Jesus wishes to delegate power and authority down to prophets, archangels, or cherubim, it is His right to do so.

[pam]

Pam . . . which part of lds.org did the above quote come from? Was it from canonized scripture?

I have to say that untangling the utterances of LDS prophets is as challenging as interpreting some scripture passages in The Holy Bible.

Here is the link:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Life after Death

There are two scriptures that are references at the end of this lesson:

Romans 14:10:

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Also:

Acts 17:31

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

[Hemidakota]

Unfortunate for the souls who not only oppose the Beloved Son but his mighty Elias, Joseph Smith, who the Son has sent to opened the way in preparing the Son's return to rule over the earth. It is this Elias, who will restore the fullness of the Priesthood to all the tribes of the earth.

[Hemidakota]

No, I will read it, but it would be helpful if you gave me something specific to read and look for.

If you are sincere, as I was being a convert, by applying great faith in reading Moroni's request to ask GOD whether these things are true, I do believe HE will answer.

[Hemidakota]

Hi,

I assume you mean along with Moses, the 12 Apostles, and others of the Lord's servants?

In further clarity, if one could look forward to judgment, it will be the Son that will sit among those who are dispensation prophets, along with assigned priesthood bears, sit in judgment. Moses has his own dispensation to deal with, as others from the time of Adam to our current dispensation.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Hemidakota