Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[Seanette]

The Journal of Discourses is not doctrinal or to be viewed as doctrine by LDS. It may be used help explain some doctrines or truths, but it is not in the LDS canon of scripture. I don't believe it is even published anymore. As such, I view it as background noise, and not binding on me and my LDS beliefs.

I recently found the JoD online, but haven't really poked around in there (been busy with forums, blogging, Scripture reading, trying to have a life.....). My major reason for taking note of it was a claim I saw elsewhere that the JoD is "suppressed" by the church (snicker).

DH, his parents (both BYU graduates), his RM brother, a friend of ours (home from her mission due to medical problems), and I once watched the video version of "The Godmakers". We had to stop the tape practically every minute or two because people were either yelling corrections or laughing so hard we couldn't hear the soundtrack. I highly recommend Gilbert Scharffs' "The Truth About the Godmakers", which responds point-by-point, showing outright willful dishonesty by the authors of the book being responded to.

On the bright side, "The Godmakers" got me interested in checking out the real teachings and practices of the LDS Church, which led to my conversion.

[aj4u]

Do you understand scripture the same way as you did 5 years ago?

No, I understand it better. I am growing. I am doing it without looking to man on this earth.

For us personal growth is the reason we are here, whilst God is unchangeable the humans he gets involved with are not, the world is not the same as it was at creation it has evolved to where we are in 2009, not every culture is the same etc everyone becomes a Latter Day Saint at a different level or understanding.

My Bible says that Jesus started the work in me and He will finish it. I trusting Him and Him only with my soul. I will not allow myself to be captive of man's teaching without testing it first. Otherwise the firewall on my computer is down, and I am without virus protection in my spirit. Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith.

Want to know what we believe sure read the Book of Mormon, but also approach General Conference with prayer and a readiness to grow and be taught. Take notes decide where your family will be growing now.

So, how are you more perpared than me spiritually? What makes you think I am not growing spiritually just as fast as God wants?

We have complete consistency and clarity because we have President Monson, Joseph Smith taught what was right for his day, Abraham for his day there are strong truths in there and a lot for us to learn but its is President Monson that offers the clarity the saints today are ready to understand and need to guide us.

Clarity? One day a great Mormon prophet shares a doctrine truth, and multiple decades latter it is obsolete. Is that what you call evolution of prophecy? I am sorry, I am being as objective as I know. I don't see what in the world your talking about. I have the Spirit and testimony of Jesus Christ and God is not showing me the voice of truth in what you share.

Rely only on the Bible and not personal revelation and modern prophets and you can only live the gospel to the standards set in an earlier day. Rely on Personal Revelation, General Conference and President Monson and you live the standards set for 2009, a time when many in the world are capable of a lot more than they were 2000 years ago. I use the current measure to read my scriptures with, attend the temple with, when doing that tremendous clarity is afforded to you, I would even suggest without the temple and General Conference you can't understand the Bible properly, and you will see more contradictions and confusion than exist in my mind.

With the Bible I am an intrument rated pilot. I trust my instrument panel even if I feel I am off course. But without it, I am out as sea in a ship without a compass following my feeling and the feelings of others (prophets) for direction. That doesn't sound like anyway I want to travel.

Which is why I do understand your urgency to go round in circles, because Christianity without evolution of prophecy as you call it does go round in circles never moving forward. With modern revelation both personal and prophetic it moves constantly forward, and with each prophet there is a major leap forward, I felt it when President Hunter took over, then President Hinckley and now President Monson with each one the understanding is more full. So for me General Conference trumps what even Joseph Smith said

-Charley

I am not urgent to go in circles never moving forward. Are you? Wow, trumps Joseph Smith. I never thought I'd hear something like that. Edited June 15, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

I recently found the JoD online, but haven't really poked around in there (been busy with forums, blogging, Scripture reading, trying to have a life.....). My major reason for taking note of it was a claim I saw elsewhere that the JoD is "suppressed" by the church (snicker).

DH, his parents (both BYU graduates), his RM brother, a friend of ours (home from her mission due to medical problems), and I once watched the video version of "The Godmakers". We had to stop the tape practically every minute or two because people were either yelling corrections or laughing so hard we couldn't hear the soundtrack. I highly recommend Gilbert Scharffs' "The Truth About the Godmakers", which responds point-by-point, showing outright willful dishonesty by the authors of the book being responded to.

On the bright side, "The Godmakers" got me interested in checking out the real teachings and practices of the LDS Church, which led to my conversion.

". . .was a claim I saw elsewhere that the JoD is "suppressed":roflmbo:

I read the JoD back in the 1970's.

It was in the Church Library for all the ward to read.

Sheesh:wacko:

Yup, enjoyed the Godmakers myself:p

Bro. Rudick

[Islander]

Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!

No, you do not know the "story" and if the Book of Mormon is "story" then the bible is also a story for which you have no pertinent information, references or independent verification either. But you have taken it at face value.

The fact is that you have lied, manipulated the facts, ignored relevant information and continued a mute, circular reasoning argument that leads nowhere. You already made up your mind. We should just thank you and suggest you go on your merry way. I am sure you have other more important things to do with your life.

[JohnnyRudick]

Originally Posted by aj4u View Post

"Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!"

You see here where he is coming from.

Bro. Rudick

[Guest TheLutheran]

Here is the link:

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Life after Death

There are two scriptures that are references at the end of this lesson:

Romans 14:10:

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Also:

Acts 17:31

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Thanks for the link Pam. Is Gospel Fundamentals canonized scripture and that is why it trumps the statement by Prophet Brigham Young? Who is the author of Gospel Fundamentals?

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I'm just having trouble understanding how discrepancies in statements are resolved. If I were LDS and ran across these two differing statements in my study, how would I know which was true?

[dnc76v22]

Is another testament another way of saying another gospel?

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) - The ARTFL Project

Testimony (Page: 1490) Tes"ti*mo*ny (?), n.; pl. Testimonies (#). [L. testimonium, from testis a witness: cf. OF. testimoine, testemoine, testimonie. See Testify.]

1. A solemn declaration or affirmation made for the purpose of establishing or proving some fact. &hand; Such declaration, in judicial proceedings, may be verbal or written, but must be under oath or affirmation.

2. Affirmation; declaration; as, these doctrines are supported by the uniform testimony of the fathers; the belief of past facts must depend on the evidence of human testimony, or the testimony of historians.

3. Open attestation; profession.

[Thou] for the testimony of truth, hast borne Universal reproach. Milton.

4. Witness; evidence; proof of some fact.

When ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Mark vi. 11.

5. (Jewish Antiq.) The two tables of the law.

Thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. Ex. xxv. 16.

6. Hence, the whole divine revelation; the sacre Scriptures.

The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. Ps. xix. 7.

Syn. -- Proof; evidence; attestation; witness; affirmation; confirmation; averment. -- Testimony, Proof, Evidence. Proof is the most familiar, and is used more frequently (though not exclusively) of facts and things which occur in the ordinary concerns of life. Evidence is a word of more dignity, and is more generally applied to that which is moral or intellectual; as, the evidences of Christianity, etc. Testimony is what is deposed to by a witness on oath or affirmation. When used figuratively or in a wider sense, the word testimony has still a reference to some living agent as its author, as when we speak of the testimony of conscience, or of doing a thing in testimony of our affection, etc. Testimony refers rather to the thing declared, evidence to its value or effect. To conform our language more to common use, we ought to divide arguments into demonstrations, proofs, and probabilities; ba proofs, meaning such arguments from experience as leave no room for doubt or opposition." Hume. The evidence of sense is the first and highest kind of evidence of which human nature is capable." Bp. Wilkins. The proof of everything must be by the testimony of such as the parties produce." Spenser.

It's another Testimony as each of the four gospels are each a testament of Christ.

[aj4u]

If you are sincere, as I was being a convert, by applying great faith in reading Moroni's request to ask GOD whether these things are true, I do believe HE will answer.

I can be sincere and pray and ask that God show me how He sees these things. Is that good enough? I can't ask Him if it is true because I believe differently base on How well it lines up with The Bible and from some of what I have seen and heard from those claiming to be Mormons.

[aj4u]

Originally Posted by aj4u View Post

"Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!"

You see here where he is coming from.

Bro. Rudick

What is it you see?

[JohnnyRudick]

I can be sincere and pray and ask that God show me how He sees these things. Is that good enough? I can't ask Him if it is true because I believe differently base on How well it lines up with The Bible and from some of what I have seen and heard from those claiming to be Mormons.

OK;)

Sounds good to me.

Read the Book of Mormon and do just that:)

If you think you can't manage it maybe just shoot for 150 pages.

Prayerfully by then you will desire to read the rest;)

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

Actually for me, it was the D&C that converted my spirit and not the Book of Mormon. Though, different than most, my curiosity hungered for latter-day revelations and to know this man name, Joseph Smith.

[aj4u]

No, you do not know the "story" and if the Book of Mormon is "story" then the bible is also a story for which you have no pertinent information, references or independent verification either. But you have taken it at face value.

The fact is that you have lied, manipulated the facts, ignored relevant information and continued a mute, circular reasoning argument that leads nowhere. You already made up your mind. We should just thank you and suggest you go on your merry way. I am sure you have other more important things to do with your life.

Maybe your right I don't know. It seems like the stories keep changing with time. If your going to judge someone, at least tell them where they have lied and manipulated the facts. What you have accused me of is and as never been what I am about on here. God has me here for a reason. I am sincere about my relationsip with the Lord. Either you are suppose, to win me with God's help to Moronism or God is trying to deliever you from deception. If it is the latter, I have failed to reach you, but I have been obedient in delivering my soul to you. If it is the former, you have failed because you cannot identify or discern someone who sincerely Loves Jesus Christ and might be going about things the wrong way.

You can tell more about a person from what he says about others than what others say about him. Think about it, and think when you point your finger you have three fingers pointing back at you!!!

[Islander]

I can be sincere and pray and ask that God show me how He sees these things. Is that good enough? I can't ask Him if it is true because I believe differently base on How well it lines up with The Bible and from some of what I have seen and heard from those claiming to be Mormons.

That is the most arrogant and brainless statement I have ever heard!! "I can't ask God...???" Let's just put an end to this. You WILL NOT ASK because you DO NOT WANT TO ASK. If that is so then let's not waste our time!!

I worship a Living God. Him who never sleeps is never absent and is Omniscient. There is no question too hard, too complex, or too difficult for Him. I know that Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Redeemer through personal revelation by the hand of God thru His Holy Spirit. I have read the scriptures, pondered, traveled and been a witness to things that most will never see. And after countless years of prayers, I have received a witness that the Word of the Lord is not silent, that he appoints prophets and reveals thru them His will. And from time to time, according to our faith and needs, He reveals line upon line, more of His wisdom and mind so we may gain a more perfect understanding and knowledge about His plan and will regarding His children.

We offer you, in the Book of Mormon, another witness that Jesus is the Christ, that not just in Jerusalem but also in distant lands His name was spoken of and salvation expected by His Atonement. I know, unequivocally, that this record is true as the Lord has testified to me so. You can, from today and until we meet again in His kingdom, deny this truth but you can not change it. We offer you this witness of Christ and challenge you to read it, pour upon the lines of this text in honesty and humility. After you had done that, the Lord challenges YOU to pray to Him, the Father, in the name of Christ about this work. and HE, THE LORD WILL ANSWER YOU.

Today you will decide if you will do so or not. Whatever your choice, you will be accountable to God for it to your blessing or your own condemnation.

[aj4u]

OK;)

Sounds good to me.

Read the Book of Mormon and do just that:)

If you think you can't manage it maybe just shoot for 150 pages.

Prayerfully by then you will desire to read the rest;)

Bro. Rudick

For the past few days and today at my dentist office. I have read quite a bit. I found out today my dentist is Mormon. He had a BOM on the self in his office. As I am reading in his office, there is a nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me why is the BOM written in the KJV?

[aj4u]

That is the most arrogant and brainless statement I have ever heard!! "I can't ask God...???" Let's just put an end to this. You WILL NOT ASK because you DO NOT WANT TO ASK. If that is so then let's not waste our time!!.

I do what I say! I can Ask God how He sees these things written in the BOM. It is all I have the faith for. Are you really a LDS?

I worship a Living God. Him who never sleeps is never absent and is Omniscient. There is no question too hard, too complex, or too difficult for Him. I know that Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Redeemer through personal revelation by the hand of God thru His Holy Spirit. I have read the scriptures, pondered, traveled and been a witness to things that most will never see. And after countless years of prayers, I have received a witness that the Word of the Lord is not silent, that he appoints prophets and reveals thru them His will. And from time to time, according to our faith and needs, He reveals line upon line, more of His wisdom and mind so we may gain a more perfect understanding and knowledge about His plan and will regarding His children..

I also serve a Living God and a God who is not just Omniscient and Omnipotent but also OmnipresentI am able to hear directly from Jesus for now.

We offer you, in the Book of Mormon, another witness that Jesus is the Christ, that not just in Jerusalem but also in distant lands His name was spoken of and salvation expected by His Atonement. I know, unequivocally, that this record is true as the Lord has testified to me so. You can, from today and until we meet again in His kingdom, deny this truth but you can not change it. We offer you this witness of Christ and challenge you to read it, pour upon the lines of this text in honesty and humility. After you had done that, the Lord challenges YOU to pray to Him, the Father, in the name of Christ about this work. and HE, THE LORD WILL ANSWER YOU. .

What was wrong with the witnesses in the Bible? I accepted their witness. Why do I need another?

Today you will decide if you will do so or not. Whatever your choice, you will be accountable to God for it to your blessing or your own condemnation.

That goes both ways! Don't forget God's word is a double edged sword.

[Justice]

aj4u, here is what you are missing.

What if the Book of Mormon is true, and you won't ask because you believe it isn't true?

In order for the Spirit to work in you, you have to be open and willing; like a child. You have to be teachable.

You have to say, "I want the truth, no matter what it is."

Instead, you are saying you believe the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, so no matter what the truth is, or at the expense of the truth, you will not ask for truth.

We must be willing to change our minds when God teaches us truth.

I am assuming you believe you don't know better than God does.

Besides, we're talking about interpretations of the Bible. We believe the Bible also.

[pam]

to win me with God's help to Moronism

So now we're morons?

[Islander]

So now we're morons?

where is the laugh button when you need it? :lol:

[pam]

Thanks for the link Pam. Is Gospel Fundamentals canonized scripture and that is why it trumps the statement by Prophet Brigham Young? Who is the author of Gospel Fundamentals?

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I'm just having trouble understanding how discrepancies in statements are resolved. If I were LDS and ran across these two differing statements in my study, how would I know which was true?

The question originally was asked in this way:

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

No we don't need his permission. He will be a judge but it will be Christ who is the final judge. In the explanation that Brigham Young gave it did not fully give the entire explanation. His quote appeared to make it as if Joseph Smith has the final say which he does not.

No Gospel Essential is not canonized scripture. It's a course of study.

[Kawazu]

As I am reading in his office, there is a nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me why is the BOM written in the KJV?

Howdy,

in the movie, "A Touch of Greatness", teacher Albert Cullum teaches Shakespeare to his second grade class. The children comprehend with surprising quickness.

Unfamiliar language variations can be understood with just a smidgen of extra concentration.

By the way, the movie is inspiring. I recommend renting the documentary at Netflix or a brick-and-mortar store.

Cheers,

Kawazu

[aj4u]

So now we're morons?

typo

[pam]

I knew it was but just had to tease you.

[aj4u]

The question originally was asked in this way:

No we don't need his permission. He will be a judge but it will be Christ who is the final judge. In the explanation that Brigham Young gave it did not fully give the entire explanation. His quote appeared to make it as if Joseph Smith has the final say which he does not.

No Gospel Essential is not canonized scripture. It's a course of study.

I meant it the way Brigham Young said it. So is it possible that Joseph Smith will say no and Jesus says yes about our eternal destiny?

[aj4u]

Howdy,

in the movie, "A Touch of Greatness", teacher Albert Cullum teaches Shakespeare to his second grade class. The children comprehend with surprising quickness.

Unfamiliar language variations can be understood with just a smidgen of extra concentration.

By the way, the movie is inspiring. I recommend renting the documentary at Netflix or a brick-and-mortar store.

Cheers,

Kawazu

I'll see about the movie. Will the movie deal with this issue and how the original BOM was written in a KJV before the KJV came out in 1611.

[Kawazu]

I'll see about the movie. Will the movie deal with this issue and how the original BOM was written in a KJV before the KJV came out in 1611.

No. I was just saying that a person becomes accustomed. Perhaps one of the other members could field this particular inquiry.