Just_A_Guy Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 We can agree to disagree. I think the parable is about staying true to the ideals of Jesus rather than servitude to Mammon.I think it'd be more accurate to say that we interpret the ideals of Jesus differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Its only fair this car has a mention: YouTube - Maybach Exelero an 8 million dollar car, although the video looks a bit older. The Maybach Exelero.the Bugatti looks amazing. that is fast I could probably get by just fine on something similar to a Volkswagen CC, if i were a wealthy man or no. I think the car is pretty, and it seems relatively well made. Its not in the same class as the other cars we've mentioned, obviously. But it would fit the bill just fine for getting to where ever you need to go.2009 Volkswagen Passat CC Front Three Quarters View Photo Starting price: $27k. Edited June 23, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that wealth is only for blessing others. The first sign of wickedness/pride in the BoM was their clothing. I would think that this would also include house and car today, as two major things we "clothe" ourselves with, often in an ostentatious manner. There is NO reason for anyone to own a $1M car that I can think of, except that they are wasting the precious resources of this world upon their own lusts. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elgama Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 aThere is NO reason for anyone to own a $1M car that I can think of, except that they are wasting the precious resources of this world upon their own lusts. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus comes to mind.keeping other people in highly skilled jobs they wouldn't otherwise have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) keeping other people in highly skilled jobs they wouldn't otherwise have? There is a place in the world for magnificence in whatever field of work you choose. Even to the extent that the thing you create is among the finest in the world. The important part of the scriptures referring to "lifting themselves up to wearing costly apparel" is the "lifting themselves up" part. "Lifting one's self up" does not necessarily follow (or precede) wearing costly apparel as night follows day. I don't believe that was what the Book of Mormon was trying to explain. It was instead warning against pride. Perceptions do not constitute reality, if you cannot think of a good reason someone might have purchased something, it may well be that this is simply because you cannot think of the reason. Edited June 23, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deals_dog Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Nothing wrong with money, take it from me its not very nice when you dont have enough. But I suppose if you loose your soul in the pursuit of it then it has robbed you. But I didn't think the lord wants us to be poor, he would have us be industrious and hard working. Balance I would say is the problem in most peoples existance. Focusing on the money and loosing sight of your family. But as for the car, very nice but I am not going to sweat it if I don't have one parked in my drive way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I don't think anyone has a right to have a 20 million dollar house when there are people who don't even have a home. Imagine if he settled for a 500,000 house and then devoted 19.5 million to an enterprise that gave decent jobs to people. I'm not talking handouts or charity, just honest decent paying jobs. The same goes for a million dollar car, use the money to help let other people work. Just do the math, if that 19.5 million was used to generate income and those earning were full tithe payers, the Lord's income would be increased many times over. Or maybe I am wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) I don't think anyone has a right to have a 20 million dollar house when there are people who don't even have a home. Imagine if he settled for a 500,000 house and then devoted 19.5 million to an enterprise that gave decent jobs to people. I'm not talking handouts or charity, just honest decent paying jobs. The same goes for a million dollar car, use the money to help let other people work. Just do the math, if that 19.5 million was used to generate income and those earning were full tithe payers, the Lord's income would be increased many times over. Or maybe I am wrong....what if that man was already spending over 95 percent of his net worth to do that very thing, and could still well afford it? I could see it in the context you're talking about, if he wasn't a man of that sort of means. Anyone want to attempt to address this question as it pertains to the hypothetical case of the super rich? are the super rich really required to live as the middle class do? Or are we judging them by our perceptions of what is right for us? I am convinced wealth is a relative thing. Its seems really difficult to get people to think about a position where a person might not be required to go into debt over a 1 million dollar car, and have it not even be a marginal blip on the radar for them. But such situations do exist. Edited June 24, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I have a problem with how society sometimes puts value on "highly skilled" jobs. Do professional football players REALLY need to make tens of millions of dollars for their "skills"?Is that really as important or skilled as the teaching profession? Which would benefit society better, paying football players huge salaries, or paying quality teachers better salaries?Just because a person is highly skilled, does not mean the person merits a high dollar figure, or our admiration. Assassination is a highly skilled, high paying position. Should we admire their work?Righteous people in the scriptures and in the writings of the prophets, wear modest clothing. The Church's provident living guidelines for credit/debt is to use it wisely, including for a "modest" home and a "basic" automobile. I cannot fathom a $1M Rolls being "basic". Expensive clothes, homes and cars are often a sign of pride. Whether the person can "afford" it is immaterial. As mentioned, such funds could be used to provide jobs for many people, rather than just fill the coffers of a few other wealthy people.IMNSHO, We need to tread carefully with wealth. It has a huge corrupting influence. Many Americans consider themselves "poor", when in reality, the vast majority of us would fall into the top 10% of richest people on earth. The average worldwide worker only makes about $7000 per year. That is far below the average American wage, where we make that much in about 10 weeks.Most of our "poor" have cable television, are overweight, own a car, a telephone, air conditioning, etc. A huge number of Americans bought into the get-rich quick schemes of the last 20 years, including buying large, expensive homes and cars, whether they could afford them or not.I would say that our entire nation is filled with a lot of proud, rich people who do not realize how rich they really are, because their lust for material possessions convinces them they are poor. It is a nation of coveters, who will do whatever is necessary to get gain, including run up vast amounts of debt and then declare bankruptcy. Or elect people into office who promise to buy them the best toys, regardless of the real cost to society. And many older AARP Americans are guilty of this well, as they insist on having Social Security, Medicare, etc., but refuse to fully pay for the entitlements, but rather pass the debt on down to their children and grandchildren.It is ALL pride and greed. And it will catch up to us one day soon, if we do not repent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) I don't think anyone has a right to have a 20 million dollar house when there are people who don't even have a home. Imagine if he settled for a 500,000 house and then devoted 19.5 million to an enterprise that gave decent jobs to people. I'm not talking handouts or charity, just honest decent paying jobs. The same goes for a million dollar car, use the money to help let other people work. Just do the math, if that 19.5 million was used to generate income and those earning were full tithe payers, the Lord's income would be increased many times over. Or maybe I am wrong....How far are you willing to take this?Does someone have a right to a $150,000 dollar house, when that same money could employ well over a hundred and fifty people in the third-world for a year?It's easy to want to dictate the lifestyle for people who are richer than us. But for every person richer than you are, there are several hundred people poorer than you are who think anyone with even your own standard of living must be an inveterate spendthrift. Edited June 24, 2009 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) How far are you willing to take this?Does someone have a right to a $150,000 dollar house, when that same money could employ well over a hundred and fifty people in the third-world for a year?It's easy to want to dictate the lifestyle for people who are richer than us. But for every person richer than you are, there are several hundred people poorer than you are who think anyone with even your own standard of living must be an inveterate spendthrift.those 150 people could be working and eating, and helping their family, boy we oughtta be ashamed we don't live like the people in Vietnam do, on 50 dollars a month. Like I said, middle class Americans saying everyone ought to live as they do (especially the filthy sinful rich)Edit: sorry if i seem brash. Edited June 24, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) I cannot fathom a $1M Rolls being "basic". Then do not go into debt over one. Being in debt, or hurting one's ability to help was never my point in using the car as an example. I agree, its an extra in almost all cases. So is a cd player. See my above post at the top of this page. Edited June 24, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) i was going by youtube vids on it, . Where do you get one for 400k? I really like the rolls-royce but i used it as an example here also partly because the price tag seemed ludicrous. There are other cars out there :). the lady in the video is bugging me. Thanks for the answer Hemi, I'd been curious as to what you thought.2009 Rolls-Royce Phantom Coupe Pricing and InformationI no longer own any home....there is more important services and money to be spent on the Kingdom than worldly materials. Edited June 25, 2009 by Hemidakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Then do not go into debt over one. Being in debt, or hurting one's ability to help was never my point in using the car as an example. I agree, its an extra in almost all cases. So is a cd player. See my above post on this page.I was tempted to purchase a replacement vehicle - AMG S55 or AMG S63 but the woman had the last stand or maybe it was the foot on my wallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 what if that man was already spending over 95 percent of his net worth to do that very thing, and could still well afford it? I could see it in the context you're talking about, if he wasn't a man of that sort of means. Anyone want to attempt to address this question as it pertains to the hypothetical case of the super rich? are the super rich really required to live as the middle class do? Or are we judging them by our perceptions of what is right for us? I am convinced wealth is a relative thing. Its seems really difficult to get people to think about a position where a person might not be required to go into debt over a 1 million dollar car, and have it not even be a marginal blip on the radar for them. But such situations do exist.Relativism is hurting all of us....so play the relativism game because it's what so many people play in an effort to make themselves feel better about their transgressions. Go and ahead and play the relativism card in front of Heavenly Father. Let's see how far it gets you. My guess is not that far, but I could be wrong. We all have free agency and we will all have to answer for the choices that we make. No amount of trying to justify it will work. And the person who buys the million dollar car is going to have to sit at the judgement bar and answer why he bought a million dollar car when his brother was dying for lack of money to buy medicine. Maybe that question won't be asked, I don't know. Maybe Heavenly Father will be satisfied with the answer that it made him feel good inside to buy a million dollar car, I don't know. One thing is certain, I am certainly thankful that I won't have that burden...though I have burdens of my own. And let's toss a firebomb in the theater, I have severe diabetes with blood sugar in the 300's and 400's most of the time and I have no money for medicine. I am dying early because of this. Which do you think is better, forgo the million dollar car and help me live or let me die and enjoy a million dollar car? Oops, you are a relativist, so let's put this in simpler terms. Are you willing to forgo the new $12,000 car and stick with your still functioning used car in order to insure that a brother lives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 those 150 people could be working and eating, and helping their family, boy we oughtta be ashamed we don't live like the people in Vietnam do, on 50 dollars a month. Like I said, middle class Americans saying everyone ought to live as they do (especially the filthy sinful rich)Edit: sorry if i seem brash.Dude, you are on the internet. You are being brash, but there are people reading what you have to say living on next to no money every month. Yes, you are wealthy. Instead of living like they do, that's the wrong way. Live modestly and help them live the way you do. I have no problem with anyone having a million dollar car and a 20 million house, I think it's great and I think everyone should live like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Oops, you are a relativist, so let's put this in simpler terms. Are you willing to forgo the new $12,000 car and stick with your still functioning used car in order to insure that a brother lives?You're taking things to an unnecessary extreme. Show me where a GA says the super wealthy need to donate their entire livelihood until they're living as a middle class American, and I'll give you a nice relatively shiny quarter. Until then, I'm sticking with my understanding. The answer to your question, is, if I knew a brother that needed the money more than I did, yes, at this income I make, I would forgo the new car. Your assumptions are not helping your point.LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Beware Lest Thou Forget the Lordâ€Wealth is a relative thing. Conditions vary dramatically from place to place in the world today. That which some consider to be the necessities of life, to others would be abundance, and even extravagance. In any set of circumstances, the challenges related to an improvement in material prosperity remain the same. The message that echoes to us from the pages of history and from the counsels of the Lord and his prophets is clear:• Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven.• Seek not for riches to consume them on your own lusts.• Thou shalt not covet.• Clothe the naked.• Feed the hungry.• Relieve the sick and the afflicted.• Pay tithes and offerings.• In all things acknowledge the Lord.• Be grateful.• Be humble." Edited June 25, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) Dude, you are on the internet. You are being brash, but there are people reading what you have to say living on next to no money every month. Yes, you are wealthy. Instead of living like they do, that's the wrong way. Live modestly and help them live the way you do. I have no problem with anyone having a million dollar car and a 20 million house, I think it's great and I think everyone should live like that. I am not wealthy. I simply do not judge the rich with the harshness others do, but I have charity for my brother who does well, and i am very happy when he succeeds. I love to see people doing well, and I'm not ashamed of that. I'm going to lose the blessing for this, (I ought to do my alms in secret) however this is not to brag, but to make my point: I've given friends in the phillipines and vietnam the money from my own pocket until it hurt. I gave a starving girl in Vietnam (i know her very well, it was not a scam) $700 when i had next to nothing except that amount, but i knew i could still eat and have a place to live. That is how I know how much it takes to live in Vietnam, because she was only making 30 bucks a month and she would get very upset when I talked about food. So I finally got her to explain to me. If the time comes that I am that superwealthy, I will most likely drive that 400k rolls and live in a 30 million dollar mansion AND give most of my money to the poor. But if I was anywhere near to it being a burden on me being able to help, I would not buy those things. I know the difference between like and appreciation, and lust. Edited July 1, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 You're taking things to an unnecessary extreme. Show me where a GA says the super wealthy need to donate their entire livelihood until they're living as a middle class American, and I'll give you a nice relatively shiny quarter. Until then, I'm sticking with my understanding. The answer to your question, is, if I knew a brother that needed the money more than I did, yes, at this income I make, I would forgo the new car. Your assumptions are not helping your point.You'll give me a quarter? How insulting. You can keep your quarter and instead take some time to read Doctrine and Covenants, you will find many references saying just the same. Or maybe you need to look in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. You will find plenty of references saying just the same. Maybe what you should do right now is to pray for eyes to see and ears to hear.....if you don't understand that buying a million dollar car while others are suffering is a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) You'll give me a quarter? How insulting. You can keep your quarter and instead take some time to read Doctrine and Covenants, you will find many references saying just the same. Or maybe you need to look in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. You will find plenty of references saying just the same. Maybe what you should do right now is to pray for eyes to see and ears to hear.....if you don't understand that buying a million dollar car while others are suffering is a bad thing.dude it was a joke. Its just a saying I use, it means nothing. I've never had anyone take offense to it before. Why are you? I know what its like to suffer, but I don't persecute the rich because of their riches. When I see someone who drives a beautiful car or lives in a beautiful home I am happy for them. It makes me smile. I don't instead feel entitled to their riches. I know that you have a problem with diabetes, were I wealthy I would do my best to help you. But I can't right now. Believe me, it breaks my heart. Look me up in a couple years. I, like you right now, live on next to nothing. But it wont be for long. inbox me and I can give you my email. keep in touch if you want. Im going to bed now. Edited June 25, 2009 by MikeUpton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Let's simmer down folks, or I'll have to close this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have no problem with anyone having a million dollar car and a 20 million house, I think it's great and I think everyone should live like that.I am glad the Savior does not think that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 LDS Church News - Point of no return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeUpton Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 · Hidden Hidden He's right though, a lot of people reading this thread I hadn't thought of. Link to comment
MikeUpton Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Maybe we ought to close the thread, I didn't think of all the people that might read it and hurt. Rico was right about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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