The Godhead & Grief

[OneEternalSonata]

How many believe the Godhead grieve? I believe they do.

My Dad and I were discussing this topic. He believes since he is saved by grace, and is covered by the blood of Christ, that God never grieves when we sin.

I believe the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the heavenly host, do grieve for us when we sin, when we're hurt or afflicted, or any other situation that would call for it.

Any thoughts?

[Dr T]

I agree with you 1eternalsonata. Why would your father think otherwise? I think it does grieve God. Maybe he's talking about after forgiveness because of Jesus then the sin has been forgotten as far as the east is from the west thing. Hmmm...That's a good question. I think God is hurt by it other wise He would not have instructed us to "sin no more" and to more Christ-like. In the end I'd still say it grieves Him since we are going against Him in whatever way. He still wants us to be reunified with Him and wants us to sin less. We are to be sanctified and I think we can walk in the spirit and show good fruit but I do not buy the Nazarene theology of being able to be without sin.

[Seanette]

In the book of Moses, we see God weeping over human wickedness. Also, in several places in Scripture, God laments over human unwillingness to be gathered to Him.

[OneEternalSonata]

Excellent thoughts. Thanks to you, Dr. T, I appreciate your insight. Could you give verse references, Seanette?

[Seanette]

OK, see Moses 7:28-40 for the reference to God weeping.

As for lamenting unwillingness to be gathered in, I'm sure there are some I've missed, but here's three: Matthew 23:37, Luke 13:34, and 3 Nephi 10:5.

[ruthiechan]

In Jacob the Lord of the vineyard weeps for his vineyard, weeps for us, when we go astray. What loving father would not grieve when their child does wrong? On the other hand, a loving father rejoices when their child does right.

[Traveler]

How many believe the Godhead grieve? I believe they do.

My Dad and I were discussing this topic. He believes since he is saved by grace, and is covered by the blood of Christ, that God never grieves when we sin.

I believe the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the heavenly host, do grieve for us when we sin, when we're hurt or afflicted, or any other situation that would call for it.

Any thoughts?

I believe the greatest grief to G-d are those that know of his grace, know his commandments, know that the will of G-d is not to sin - have all this knowledge and go a head and trun their back on all of the knonwledge and G-d himself and sin anyway. It is my impression that the greatest pain that the Christ suffered was for the sins of those that know better and sin against the full light and knowledge of that very G-d - then with carefree glee say it is all just dandy because they are saved.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

But that's not true Traveler. A true Christian would not just have carefree glee and say it is all just dandy because they are saved. That's where you are wrong. That does not sound like true Christian at all.

[dnc76v22]

But that's not true Traveler. A true Christian would not just have carefree glee and say it is all just dandy because they are saved. That's where you are wrong. That does not sound like true Christian at all.

When he lived, Martin Luther did not agree with you.

[OneEternalSonata]

Thank you, Seanette! You've quoted some favored verses of mine. :)

Traveler, I believe you gave me more insight to my dad's point of view, thank you!

[Dr T]

Is that just how you read what he said DNC? I'm not sure what you're talking about. (and I liked your use of the 2 cents) :)

[Moksha]

Joseph Smith said something like 'man lives so he might have joy'. I suppose this is contingent upon the poor wayfaring man of grief having taken the burden of this world upon his shoulders.

[OneEternalSonata]

Oh, that is a beautiful and bittersweet thought, Moksha!

[Traveler]

But that's not true Traveler. A true Christian would not just have carefree glee and say it is all just dandy because they are saved. That's where you are wrong. That does not sound like true Christian at all.

Thank you Dr. T -- My point exactly. A true Christian will be the first in line to beg for mercy and forgiveness and the last to pronounce themselves saved. They would do so because knowing the unnecessary pain and suffering that they added to the Christ in light of their “personal” knowledge and with no excuse but carelessness and a caviler attitude that is removed from a genuine love a G-d

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Yes sir, that's exactly it. It is a person that actually begged for mercy and forgivenss and understands the pain and suffering we added to Crist. Then it becomes gratitude and awe imo and repeated thankfulness of and growth in Christ. :)

[Traveler]

Yes sir, that's exactly it. It is a person that actually begged for mercy and forgivenss and understands the pain and suffering we added to Crist. Then it becomes gratitude and awe imo and repeated thankfulness of and growth in Christ. :)

I agree with what you say - what I want to make sure is that we do not overlook that having received forgiveness of their sins and knowing what great pain they did cause the L-rd with sin - No real Christian would ever think that continuing to sin is not “turning one's back on the L-rd” or “denying the Christ and his sacrifice”.

In the words and teachings of Jesus – If someone says they know of the greatness of Christ and do not keep the commandments (which are sinful) – they are a liar. What they say they believe is not as important as how they live. Their works are necessary to demonstrate what they really believe – not so much to others as to themselves.

For this reason – I have come to believe that those that argue a separation of faith and works; implying covenantal works are not G-d’s will, deny salvation through Christ.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

How many believe the Godhead grieve? I believe they do.

My Dad and I were discussing this topic. He believes since he is saved by grace, and is covered by the blood of Christ, that God never grieves when we sin.

I believe the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the heavenly host, do grieve for us when we sin, when we're hurt or afflicted, or any other situation that would call for it.

Any thoughts?

Does the FATHER and the Son weep? Yes! As they also grieve over us. Holy Spirit, He needs to experience this feeling with a mortal body, which currently, He does not have a mortal body to do so.

[Dr T]

I agree with what you say - what I want to make sure is that we do not overlook that having received forgiveness of their sins and knowing what great pain they did cause the L-rd with sin - No real Christian would ever think that continuing to sin is not “turning one's back on the L-rd” or “denying the Christ and his sacrifice”.

In the words and teachings of Jesus – If someone says they know of the greatness of Christ and do not keep the commandments (which are sinful) – they are a liar. What they say they believe is not as important as how they live. Their works are necessary to demonstrate what they really believe – not so much to others as to themselves.

For this reason – I have come to believe that those that argue a separation of faith and works; implying covenantal works are not G-d’s will, deny salvation through Christ.

The Traveler

Thanks Traveler. As I read that my mind flashed on a verse and since my mind is not working too well at the moment I can't dig up the reference off the top of my head at the moment. I'll finish work and then look it up. I wrestled with that verse when I read it. I'm thinking 1 Peter for some reason but again, I don't have the reference for it. It said something about those that say they don't are liars. I'll check it out in the next few days. Thanks for your thoughts.

[OneEternalSonata]

Hemi, wouldn't that also mean Jehovah, before the meridian of time, was unable to grieve? I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. It seems you could be implying the Holy Spirit cannot grieve with us until he has tasted of such emotion in the flesh. Is that what you mean? If so, I'd have to respectfully disagree. While the HS may not have experienced mortal grief yet, surely he does grieve. "...the Spirit is grieved... Amen to the priesthood of..." Also, the sons of God shouted for joy premortally, so wouldn't that also denote emotion such as grief? Maybe I'm on a tangent, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Edited July 7, 2009 by OneEternalSonata

[Dr T]

I wonder if your dad thinks that grief is an emotion that is outside his view of God's perfection (such as "wanting" or needing something) and has a hard time thinking of God in that way? Hmmmm...have you talked to him any more about it?

[Traveler]

I wonder if your dad thinks that grief is an emotion that is outside his view of God's perfection (such as "wanting" or needing something) and has a hard time thinking of God in that way? Hmmmm...have you talked to him any more about it?

I think you are on to something here. That is a selfish view of grief verses a compansionate view of grief concerning others. We are told the the worth of a soul is great in the eyes of G-d. We are also told that the L-rd will leave 99 to bring back the one. Therefore, I believe that we can conclude that the loss of a single soul is grief in the heart of G-d.

I also wonder if the loss of a soul is grief in the heart of "real" Christians that have come to understand the love, mercy and compassion of G-d. That there is rejoycing in those that are gathered in but grief and sadness for those that are lost.

The Traveler

[OneEternalSonata]

It seems to be, Dr T. His latest thoughts were, "I don't know. No, I do know..." [God doesn't grieve]. He seems unclear. He hasn't studied and prayed on it, as he indicated to me. I think that's my next step, asking him to pray and inquire. I have a personal witness from the Lord concerning this matter, and it'd be nice to find harmony with him in this belief.

Edited July 7, 2009 by OneEternalSonata

[Dr T]

Thanks Traveler. As I read that my mind flashed on a verse and since my mind is not working too well at the moment I can't dig up the reference off the top of my head at the moment. I'll finish work and then look it up. I wrestled with that verse when I read it. I'm thinking 1 Peter for some reason but again, I don't have the reference for it. It said something about those that say they don't are liars. I'll check it out in the next few days. Thanks for your thoughts.

I was off on the 1 Peter thought I had but it was in 1 John 1:10 which says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." Or 1 John 1:6 which says, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not live by the truth"

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, wouldn't that also mean Jehovah, before the meridian of time, was unable to grieve? I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. It seems you could be implying the Holy Spirit cannot grieve with us until he has tasted of such emotion in the flesh. Is that what you mean? If so, I'd have to respectfully disagree. While the HS may not have experienced mortal grief yet, surely he does grieve. "...the Spirit is grieved... Amen to the priesthood of..." Also, the sons of God shouted for joy premortally, so wouldn't that also denote emotion such as grief? Maybe I'm on a tangent, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Spirits can grieve but experience cannot be felt on the same level as those of a mortal body. There is difference of levels to which I am speaking. In comparing the difference here, experiences being described is no different than an apple being compared to an orange.

If you are not clear on what I am referring too, then ask the Holy Ghost for yourself or look across the veil. There is a reason why we want these mortal bodies beside being with our Heavenly Parents for eternity. Even the Holy Ghost looks forward with receiving His mortal flesh on this earth.

Yes! My writings is not always clear as my thoughts are. Thanks.

[OneEternalSonata]

Thank you for clarifying, Hemi! You and I are in accord on this doctrine, just wording things differently. I realize grief in premortal robes is not grief in mortal clay. =) I am always glad to hear your thoughts.