Prophet, Seer, and Revelator

[YellowLight]

It seems that there has been a fairly diverse range of discussions regarding following prophets and such lately. This got me thinking of what the prophets of the church are sustained as every GC, mainly as The prophet, seer, and revelator.

I have been trying to find recent prophecies, revelations, or times when current (let's say the last 20 years) prophets have used their seer abilities. President Hinckley said once that we don't need much revelation since much of it was received during Joseph Smith's life. So, this has me ask the following three questions, and I am asking in all sincerity as I have stumped myself.

1. What is the last prophecy received from a modern day prophet? (Is it the 1978 revelation on blacks and the priesthood?)

2. President Hinckley said "We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received." While this may be good advice, what is the most recent revelation given?

3. If the prophets are sustained as seers, why do they not use their ability to translate valuable documents such as the dead sea scrolls, the Book of Joseph from papyri, or finish the inspired translation of the Bible? The church is even known to possess Joseph's seer stone and Urim and Thummim.

[bytebear]

The church does not have the U&T (or rather the interpreters given to Smith with the Golden Plates). They were returned with the plates.

I would do a couple things. Research the difference between greater and lesser prophets. For example, who were the great prophets between Adam and Enoch. What great things did prophets reveal between Noah and Abraham. The point is, for the most part, prophets who don't open up dispensations simply reiterate the teachings of that dispensation. They also have a very important role, and that is that they hold all the keys of the priesthood. This is far more important than revealing things that we already know (or that we don't need to know). Second, research the difference between a seer and a translator. Smith's gift was special and necessary to his time. We were very lucky to get additional translations and interpretations from him beyond the Book of Mormon, but God has not seen fit to send another translator in this dispensation.

[Seanette]

As for #3, my take on it is that as a Church, we're not really doing all that well with what we've already been given, so the Lord probably doesn't think we're ready for more Scripture, so chooses not to give us more knowledge that will lead to condemnation by our not living up to it.

[Dr T]

I agree with the first two sentences of #2 above personally. It's interesting that he said that.

[qedd]

A prophet, by definition, is one who speaks on behalf of God.

A prophet is a witness who bears testimony of the truth as he understands it by way of the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, past and present. The Holy Ghost then bears testimony of the truthfulness of the prophet's words by way of such whisperings to the recipient. Prophets are fallible human beings who are trying their best, just like you and me -- but through the law of witnesses (i.e., testimony of the Holy Ghost as just explained) we can know when a prophet is speaking as a prophet (which seems to be a common topic of debate). Scripture study, prayer, and meditation are also important means to obtain revelation, understanding, and comprehension -- seed and nutrition for growing one's faith and personal witness.

We have the words of many prophets through the ages as documented in scripture and we have the words of living prophets today. Not all of the prophets from bygone eras can meet the prophetic rigor that many desire, yet they were prophets nonetheless.

Looking for mystical predictions or translations that tantalize vain imagination misses the point.

The message of a prophet is what is needed by the recipients. When the world needed the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, Jr. translated it. When the members of the Church needed to cleanse themselves of false traditions of men, revelation came about permitting all worthy males to hold the priesthood. When the plague of pornography needed to be addressed, the prophets spoke and continue to speak at length exhorting, encouraging, and admonishing members as well as instituting educational and recovery programs.

[Ezequiel]

The church does not have the U&T (or rather the interpreters given to Smith with the Golden Plates). They were returned with the plates.

I always thought the church did in fact held in its possession the seer stones. Can you gives us a litle more information on this?

[YellowLight]

I always thought the church did in fact held in its possession the seer stones. Can you gives us a litle more information on this?

I will have to see if I can find any official statements from the church stating whether or not they possess either the seer stone or the U&T.

[YellowLight]

I have a question and I may be hijacking my own thread...LOL. At any rate, the whole speaking as a man or a prophet thing that has been discussed ad nauseum got me thinking. Qedd said above that you can know whether or not what the prophet says is true or not through the spirit, what if you feel the spirit telling you something different? Would this be a case of something that may be beneficial to the church, but not neccessarily for you? I mean, everyone is different.

[Hemidakota]

The church does not have the U&T (or rather the interpreters given to Smith with the Golden Plates). They were returned with the plates.

I would do a couple things. Research the difference between greater and lesser prophets. For example, who were the great prophets between Adam and Enoch. What great things did prophets reveal between Noah and Abraham. The point is, for the most part, prophets who don't open up dispensations simply reiterate the teachings of that dispensation. They also have a very important role, and that is that they hold all the keys of the priesthood. This is far more important than revealing things that we already know (or that we don't need to know). Second, research the difference between a seer and a translator. Smith's gift was special and necessary to his time. We were very lucky to get additional translations and interpretations from him beyond the Book of Mormon, but God has not seen fit to send another translator in this dispensation.

The church archives does have seer stones. Joseph or any given man today, could not even use the U&T due to the size of the object. Remember, they were given to the Jaredites who among that time were 9-feet tall plus.

We still have the other portion of the sealed plates, which are not translated and will be done by a prophet in the near distance future.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I have a question and I may be hijacking my own thread...LOL. At any rate, the whole speaking as a man or a prophet thing that has been discussed ad nauseum got me thinking. Qedd said above that you can know whether or not what the prophet says is true or not through the spirit, what if you feel the spirit telling you something different? Would this be a case of something that may be beneficial to the church, but not neccessarily for you? I mean, everyone is different.

Having sat in a Stake Sacrament meeting with Prophet Monson, it is not by our cordial feeling that reveals truths, it is only done by the Spirit in making it manifested to us this man does indeed represent GOD.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Church has the seer stone which Joseph found as a teenager when digging a well for Willard Chase, and which was used at least intermittently during the translation of the Book of Mormon. This is not the same as the Urim and Thummim which were buried with the gold plates and which was also used during the translation process--if the Church has that in its possession, it has done a very good job about keeping it a secret.

The seer stone in the Church's possession was given by Joseph Smith (who used several different seer stones throughout his life) to Oliver Cowdery, whose widow gave it to a brother of Brigham Young after Cowdery's death.

As for the other questions:

1. What is the last prophecy received from a modern day prophet? (Is it the 1978 revelation on blacks and the priesthood?)

Taking the statement found in the Book of Revelation at face value that "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ", then I'd have to say . . . yesterday (or the most recent time a member of the Twelve publicly spoke, whenever that was).

If you're asking about "revelation" in the sense of a vision: Who knows? Not every revelation/vision Joseph Smith had made it into the D&C. The Church has still not published the details of the 1978 revelation (though former Church Historian Leonard Arrington put some tantalizing tidbits in his Adventures of a Church Historian).

2. President Hinckley said "We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received." While this may be good advice, what is the most recent revelation given?

I'd be interested to see the context here before assuming he meant it in a "A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible and we have no need for any more Bible!" sense.

3. If the prophets are sustained as seers, why do they not use their ability to translate valuable documents such as the dead sea scrolls, the Book of Joseph from papyri, or finish the inspired translation of the Bible? The church is even known to possess Joseph's seer stone and Urim and Thummim.

I agree with the other sentiments expressed here. Even getting us to read the Book of Mormon is like pulling teeth. Why on earth would the Lord give more to a people as stubbornly lazy as we, as a church, have demonstrated ourselves to be?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[its_Chet]

Interesting. I find myself asking questions now, and that hasn't happened in years.

I never heard of a third seer stone. I thought Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon, at least until he became well enough acaquainted with reformed Egyption to translate without them (which I don't necessarily know that he did, only that he might possibly have). I also never heard that the Jaredites were giants, or that Joseph would have had any difficulty using the Urim and Thummim. In fact, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Joseph openly marvelled about the Urim and Thummim to his associates, stating that he could see just about anything with them. I've even heard different descriptions of their appearance. I read in one place that they were the color of chocolate, and in another that they were semi transparent, like crystal (which reminds me of Mahonri Moriancumer's 16 stones).

I've heard different stories about the papyri. I heard that they ended up in a museum in Chicago and were burned up in the great fire of 1871. I also heard that they're in an underground vault somewhere near Salt Lake City. I'm not sure what to believe. I wish I could find some sources that clearly explain these things, especially how the translating process went.

So many questions I find myself asking now. Anyone and everyone, please share your thoughts. Of course none of this will really impact my testimony, but it's still interesting.

[bytebear]

The translation device used by Smith were called the U&T by Oliver Cowdry, after he made the connection to them in the OT and the term stuck. The Nephites called them "Interpreters". Here is a footnote from the JS-History.

Oliver Cowdery describes these events thus: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’

Because of Cowdry's unclear descriptions, we don't know how much if at all Smith used the seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon. The descriptions of usage come after the Book of Mormon and Abraham translations, so Smith may have only used his seer stones on the BoA. There is nothing in the Standard Works about seer stones except to describe the interpreters. The stones ft into glasses and were attached to a breastplate. This whole contraction was generally referred to as the U&T, but again, only by Cowdry. I believe the JSH below was even altered later to include the term U&T after an understanding of what the device really was.

Word Search: seer stone

Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

Edited July 6, 2009 by bytebear

[rameumptom]

1. What is the last prophecy received from a modern day prophet? (Is it the 1978 revelation on blacks and the priesthood?)

Rameumptom: I suggest you look at the most recent General Conference. You'll see revelation. Lots of it. The Church continually receives revelation. Most of it is not the type that will make headlines or make it into the D&C. Most of it comes in policy, rather than in doctrine. However, 11 years ago, Pres Hinckley gave a talk in General Priesthood on economic collapse, discussing the dream Pharaoh had of 7 years plenty/7 years famine. He also discussed the Great Depression. Then told all of us to get out of debt, etc. That seems very revelatory from where I stand now. We've also had two major Declaration from the First Presidency and apostles: Proclamation on the Family, and Proclamation of the 12 Apostles - Testimony of Jesus Christ.

2. President Hinckley said "We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received." While this may be good advice, what is the most recent revelation given?

Ram: As I stated, he is refering to revelation regarding new doctrine. We don't need much new doctrine right now. But the Church does receive new revelation. How about the mini-temples, which have helped to fulfill Brigham Young's vision of hundreds of temples dotting the land? Or the call of Area Authorities - local GAs who can run the Church anywhere, in case there is a loss of communication from SLC.

3. If the prophets are sustained as seers, why do they not use their ability to translate valuable documents such as the dead sea scrolls, the Book of Joseph from papyri, or finish the inspired translation of the Bible? The church is even known to possess Joseph's seer stone and Urim and Thummim.

Rameumptom: Why do we need them to translate the DSS, when there are plenty of people capable of doing it? What additional value would we get from it? There is enough doctrine given by revelation to tell us everything we need to know to be exalted. And there are enough scholars (LDS and otherwise) today, wherein the GAs do not need to translate. When Joseph Smith began translating the Reformed Egyptian in the BoM, how many people could read Egyptian (much less, Reformed)? Champollion was deciphering hieroglyphics in 1828-9, so NO ONE could translate it!

How many can translate the early documents today? Hundreds, if not thousands. Why exert the effort? Why does the Church employ people to translate the scriptures into other languages? Why not have the prophets do it? Because their time is spent better elsewhere.

And there's another reason. Joseph Smith sought that all the Saints would be prophets in their own lives. If the Book of Mormon is translated by a returned missionary into Bolivian Quechua (who I happened to have served with in 1978 - and he was very fluent in it), and he translates it according to the guidance of the Holy Ghost, how is it any less inspired than if Pres Monson were to have done it?

If Dana Pike, an active member, or some non-LDS scholar, translates a fragment from the DSS, is it not inspired simply because a prophet didn't do the translation? Why can't we view it at least on the level the Lord gave Joseph Smith, when he was told not to translate the Apocrypha? Can we see that if we are inspired by the Holy Ghost, we will gain much from reading the translations available?

Is an inspired truth any less inspired if it comes from a regular member, or through someone else? Are the theories of gravity and relativity any less true, simply because Newton and Einstein weren't Mormon? Or could we believe that God inspired them to find those wonderful truths to share with the world?

[Just_A_Guy]

In fact, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Joseph openly marvelled about the Urim and Thummim to his associates, stating that he could see just about anything with them.

Yup. That's in Rough Stone Rolling.

I've even heard different descriptions of their appearance. I read in one place that they were the color of chocolate, and in another that they were semi transparent, like crystal (which reminds me of Mahonri Moriancumer's 16 stones).

The Chase seer stone was described as being chocolate-colored. Again: that is not the same as the U&T Joseph got with the plates.

I've heard different stories about the papyri. I heard that they ended up in a museum in Chicago and were burned up in the great fire of 1871.

The popular story is that the mummies accompanying the papyri were burned in the Chicago fire. However, the scrolls (or at least parts of them) turned up in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC in the 1960s or 70s.

I also heard that they're in an underground vault somewhere near Salt Lake City.

The Church built vaults up Little Cottonwood Canyon by tunneling into Granite Mountain--that's probably where the stories of underground vaults come from. But Granite Mountain is used primarily to store the master microfilm reels of genealogical records that are widely available at the Family History Library in downtown Salt Lake City. Most historical records, though, are stored at the Church History Library. The First Presidency has its own vault in the Church Administration Building adjacent to the office of the President of the Church (see Turley in Victims, an account of the Mark Hofmann affair), and certain sensitive items (including the Chase seer stone) are stored there.

[Ezequiel]

this wikipedia article has alot of info on the seer stones. It mentions the difference between the seer stones, the nephite interpreters and also the Urimm and Thummim. Its an interesting read. But there are quotes from Presidents of the church confirming that the seer stones are STILL in possession of the church

Joseph Smith and seer stones - FAIRMormon

[MarginOfError]

I don't really have a good case to back this up, but I don't think it be hard to make one:

It isn't really accurate to talk about someone having the Urim and Thummim, but rather someone having a Urim and Thummim.

[deseretgov]

I read an article the the Urim and Thummim wasn't actually a device but a action. So instead of being a noun Urim and Thummim becomes a verb.

It was interesting to read but that was about it.

[Hemidakota]

Not the case, U&T was a real product.

[Hemidakota]

The Church has the seer stone which Joseph found as a teenager when digging a well for Willard Chase, and which was used at least intermittently during the translation of the Book of Mormon. This is not the same as the Urim and Thummim which were buried with the gold plates and which was also used during the translation process--if the Church has that in its possession, it has done a very good job about keeping it a secret.

The seer stone in the Church's possession was given by Joseph Smith (who used several different seer stones throughout his life) to Oliver Cowdery, whose widow gave it to a brother of Brigham Young after Cowdery's death.

It is not secret...never assumed if you do not know, know one else can know it. There is one seer stone Joseph used after acknowledging the difficulty of using the U&T and two that was given by Brigham Young family after his death. I do not recall any other seer stone that was stated in his journal or those who did the research about this single seer stone. One of the best researched article is in a previous post, which talked about this same topic.

The principle is the same when it came to translating another language into our own language, whether it is the U&T or a seer stone.

[tubaloth]

1. What is the last prophecy received from a modern day prophet? (Is it the 1978 revelation on blacks and the priesthood?)

Would you call that a prophecy or a revelation. There are different types of revelation. Some Revelation is restoring lost knowledge, this is what Joseph Smith did. Did it so much we kind of expect it to happen all the time. The other type of Revelation is more keeping people on the path. This isn't as big and noticeable as other revelation, but its still revelation.

Things like the Proclamation on the family, or even the idea to build small temples I feel are how the church is still guided by revelation.

2. President Hinckley said "We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received." While this may be good advice, what is the most recent revelation given?

Take the words at face value, this is true! Why would God give us more revelation if we can't follow what we already have?

3. If the prophets are sustained as seers, why do they not use their ability to translate valuable documents such as the dead sea scrolls, the Book of Joseph from papyri, or finish the inspired translation of the Bible? The church is even known to possess Joseph's seer stone and Urim and Thummim.

This thread seems to be turning into a debate of what the church still has, and how the book of mormon was translated. I'm not going to do that. Both in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C, it teaches that the point of the Book of Mormon is to try our Faith. Really its to test us (the world) if we are going to accept God's word. That if we can't handle even using the book of mormon (and other scriptures) to there full potential, then we are under condemnation. It is not until we show we can live up to what we already have been given is more going to come.

That isn't to say that the seer part is dead. I fully know that the prophets and apostles see more then just a couple of months a head of time.

[tubaloth]

We still have the other portion of the sealed plates, which are not translated and will be done by a prophet in the near distance future.

We still have the sealed portion of the plates? Wheren't those part of the Gold Plates that Moroni took back (or Joseph Smith put in the Moutain)?

I have never heard that we have the seeled portion laying around just waiting for somebody to translate?

[rameumptom]

Brigham Young was told by Oliver Cowdery that upon completing the translation of the plates, Joseph and he returned the plates back to Moroni for safe keeping. IOW, we do not have the plates in our possession to translate. I'm sure they'll be returned to us, when we are ready for the sealed portions. Until that day, we have lots of study and ponder, and the Spirit can reveal so much more to us on a personal level, if we let Him.

[Hemidakota]

We still have the sealed portion of the plates? Wheren't those part of the Gold Plates that Moroni took back (or Joseph Smith put in the Moutain)?

I have never heard that we have the sealed portion laying around just waiting for somebody to translate?

No...I am speaking from a heavenly point. It will be return by the same person who gave it to Joseph Smith.

[Hemidakota]

I'm sure they'll be returned to us, when we are ready for the sealed portions. Until that day, we have lots of study and ponder, and the Spirit can reveal so much more to us on a personal level, if we let Him.

I do believe this will only happened when the members have reached the minimal state of a Terrestrial lifestyle.