again I ask...

[rameumptom]

The scriptures are quite clear, that if they are not the true church, and there is only one true church, that all the rest are the church of the devil.

Well, not to debate on the debate question, but I think you are only looking at those scriptures from an Exaltation/Outer Darkness point of view. In D&C 76, it states that the Terrestrial Kingdom is full of God's friends, honorable men of the earth. Many churches on earth elevate people to a Terrestrial level, much as the Law of Moses did anciently.

Either we need to consider the Law of Moses as part of the "church of the devil", or we have to concede that all Terrestrial and Celestial organizations are part of the church of God. Once again, D&C 1 denotes that there is more than one true and living church, but only one with which the Lord is well pleased.

Reading the scriptures in context to one another is extremely important, otherwise we can overstate an issue. True doctrine is true doctrine, whether it is in the LDS Church or in Buddhism. False doctrine is false doctrine, whether it is in Buddhism or the LDS Church (and we do have some false doctrines in our church, even today, some of which we are finally getting rid of, such as Adam-God).

[Guest missingsomething]

What I still don't understand is how people claim that simply posing an opposing view is "debate, contention, not uplifting, etc."

Beef,

I have not said this ?!?!?!

... nor do I believe that anyone who said that it can be and should not ever become contentious and not uplifting if it opposing..... has said that either.... OR that we are claiming that simply posing an opposing view is bad or wrong or should not occur...

I think what we are trying to express is that in expressing one's point of view or opposing beliefs...it SHOULD NOT be done so in a contentious, non-uplifting tone/body language and if we find ourselves in that conversation where people (even if its NOT you...) are getting contentious then you are not furthering their understanding nor helping them nor going about it the way the prophets have commanded us to do.

Well, take the last we out... cuz I can only speak for myself.

Edited July 28, 2009 by missingsomething
fixing bold... wow really bad at "high tech stuff" hehe

[rameumptom]

What I still don't understand is how people claim that simply posing an opposing view is "debate, contention, not uplifting, etc."

Sometimes it is not the idea that is contentious, but how it is delivered. If I try to share an idea with others in words that allow them to accept/reject it, then there is discussion, but no contentious debate. But if I insist that it is my way or "you are all going to rot in hell" (something I've actually heard someone once say in quorum meeting years ago), then everyone is put in the place of "take it or I'll ram it down your throat."

It is one thing to discuss how one feels a national healthcare program will be good/bad for the country. It is another thing to say, "you (Democrats/Republicans) are demon spawn and are going to send us all to hell."

Words are powerful things. They can bring people up, or tear them down, depending on how we choose to use them. None of us is perfect, and each of us has offended in the past. The Christian concept is to seek to share the truth without being offensive. Not always an easy thing to do. Fortunately for us, there is repentance and forgiveness.

[pam]

uplifting tone/body language

So how does one do that on a forum? A forum is words on a page. There is no body language on a forum. If someone is reading a particular tone that is the way they are interpreting it and may not even be what the person posting intended.

[beefche]

Beef,

I have not said this ?!?!?!

... nor do I believe that anyone who said that it can be and should not ever become contentious and not uplifting if it opposing..... has said that either.... OR that we are claiming that simply posing an opposing view is bad or wrong or should not occur...

I think what we are trying to express is that in expressing one's point of view or opposing beliefs...it SHOULD NOT be done so in a contentious, non-uplifting tone/body language and if we find ourselves in that conversation where people (even if its NOT you...) are getting contentious then you are not furthering their understanding nor helping them nor going about it the way the prophets have commanded us to do.

Well, take the last we out... cuz I can only speak for myself.

Missing, why are you assuming I'm talking directly to you? I've heard this on this forum, another forum, and in my life from people. "Well, now that there is a disagreement, the Spirit has left and we should stop this discussion."

I wish that the forums were more 3 dimensional. I really think people read too much into the actual words that are written. I don't argue with people. I'm slow to anger and really think the best of others. I'm sure that doesn't come across in my posts. Why? Because there is no tone in posts. One cannot see facial expressions, body language, etc. One reads another's words based on oneself's position in life or personality. What I might interpret as criticism another sees a compliment.

Unless one is direct and calls me stupid in a post, I'm going to assume the words were not meant in the manner it may appear. I'm going to ask the poster for clarification....sometimes explaining that I understand the words in such-n-such manner.

[Guest missingsomething]

So how does one do that on a forum? A forum is words on a page. There is no body language on a forum. If someone is reading a particular tone that is the way they are interpreting it and may not even be what the person posting intended.

Pam,

If you go back to my original post you will see I was NEVER talking about a forum.... other people TRIED to make it about that...

[Guest missingsomething]

Missing, why are you assuming I'm talking directly to you? I've heard this on this forum, another forum, and in my life from people. "Well, now that there is a disagreement, the Spirit has left and we should stop this discussion."

I wish that the forums were more 3 dimensional. I really think people read too much into the actual words that are written. I don't argue with people. I'm slow to anger and really think the best of others. I'm sure that doesn't come across in my posts. Why? Because there is no tone in posts. One cannot see facial expressions, body language, etc. One reads another's words based on oneself's position in life or personality. What I might interpret as criticism another sees a compliment.

Unless one is direct and calls me stupid in a post, I'm going to assume the words were not meant in the manner it may appear. I'm going to ask the poster for clarification....sometimes explaining that I understand the words in such-n-such manner.

I am the OP BEEF, that is why I responded to you.. I didnt take it personally, but choose to answer because.. again, I am the OP...

CONTRARY to belief.. and those who have talked to me personally and KNOW me personally know that I too am slow to anger, slow to judge and slow to agrue.

[beefche]

I am the OP BEEF, that is why I responded to you.. I didnt take it personally, but choose to answer because.. again, I am the OP...

CONTRARY to belief.. and those who have talked to me personally and KNOW me personally know that I too am slow to anger, slow to judge and slow to agrue.

Missing, you are actually illustrating my point. You said you are not taking it personally, but you are responding because you are the OP.

Here's is how you responded to my post: "Beef,

I have not said this ?!?!?!"

You addressed this to me and implying in your response that you were taking my statement personally. It's difficult for me to know that you aren't taking it personally when you use 3 question marks, 3 exclamation points, and stated that you did not say this. How else can I interpret that?

Again, my point is that when posting on a forum, one has to be careful and as clear as possible, even understanding that being careful still means that things will be taken differerntly than what was intended.

[pam]

Pam,

If you go back to my original post you will see I was NEVER talking about a forum.... other people TRIED to make it about that...

Nor was I referring to anything in particular. I was just posing a question as to how we could do that in a forum. I was referring to no one in particular and no particular instance.

[prospectmom]

There is no body language on a forum. If someone is reading a particular tone that is the way they are interpreting it and may not even be what the person posting intended. __________________

Thank you Pam that says it all . We choose to put tone and intention on a post not the poster and even if the poster has ill intentions we still have the responsibility of how we react to the poster so it is on each of us how we choose to be affected by a poster.

[Guest missingsomething]

Nor was I referring to anything in particular. I was just posing a question as to how we could do that in a forum. I was referring to no one in particular and no particular instance.

Then agreed pam...

it is more difficult to do that in a forum... with regards to tone and body language... however intent can be judged, afterall, isnt that what a mod does... judge intent?

But the original discussion about debate/discussion was posed based on a situation that happened in a meeting. And thats why body language and tone were brought up because those can be judged in person.

[pam]

I would agree with that missing. Much easier to get where a person is coming from in person.

[beefche]

Do the prophets provoke us to think (as in outside the box) intend us to question... if it brings the spirit of contention. Or do they want us to just ponder and pray about something.

One gentleman today said that they do want us to debate... and a sister said discuss not debate.

Missing, this is what you said. You posted it on a forum in which we discuss and debate. You did not ask about in real life situations. As you know, threads get on tangents very easily. In the future, if you want to discuss a particular topic without any tangents, then please be clear of your intent and actually state "please no derails or tangents."

Now that you have made your wishes known, then I say that debating and discussing in real life does not have to be contentious. I honestly believe that debating or expressing an alternative thought is not in and of itself contentious. Yes, body language and facial expressions can give you a tone to a comment. But again, we have to be careful with that. Another example: I was in the RS presidency and would often have to leave SS early to take care of some business. One particular Sunday, I left early and did my thing. The next Sunday, the SS teacher took me aside to apologize to me. He thought that I was upset at him for a statement he made because I had left early. I explained that I often had to leave early to do RS business--I thanked him for the apology and said that I was in no way offended. It was merely coincindence that I left after that statement.

Maybe I'm just different. I assume that people have other things on their mind when I see someone scowl at me. I don't assume they think I'm ugly.

[pam]

Then agreed pam...

it is more difficult to do that in a forum... with regards to tone and body language... however intent can be judged, afterall, isnt that what a mod does... judge intent?

But the original discussion about debate/discussion was posed based on a situation that happened in a meeting. And thats why body language and tone were brought up because those can be judged in person.

Intent can't always be judged either. Is it the intent of someone to knowingly and spitefully cause contention or is it the intent to question wording or is it the intent to question doctrine? Honestly, I can't read people's minds so to say that I can judge intent would not be entirely true as well.

[Misshalfway]

I hope you don't mind me sharing this Pam, but a while back Pam and I were both posting on the same thread. We both were arguing/sharing our various views. At one point, I inadvertently attacked Pam and she called me on it. And I am grateful she did. Because I had forgotten that while arguing any perspective, I must remember that there are real people, with real feelings and varied life experience, on the other side of the interchange. And I hope Pam felt that I had recognized my mistake.

In the end, what we do and what we preach should, in my mind, never overshadow the importance of the people involved.

And then just in another related thought......I think we mormons get so excited about the "truth" that we start creating "should's" -- "should's" that we start superimposing on each other. I think I hate that ( and I do it too) because while the truth is inspiring and clarifying, I can't always attain that truth today or tomorrow or even when I think I should. So, while we understand and debate the heights and depths of everything, we need to be accommodating of reality and human weakness just as our Father in Heaven is.

[pam]

What? When was this? I seem to have forgotten anything about this. :)

[Guest missingsomething]

Missing, you are actually illustrating my point. You said you are not taking it personally, but you are responding because you are the OP.

Here's is how you responded to my post: "Beef,

I have not said this ?!?!?!"

You addressed this to me and implying in your response that you were taking my statement personally. It's difficult for me to know that you aren't taking it personally when you use 3 question marks, 3 exclamation points, and stated that you did not say this. How else can I interpret that?

Again, my point is that when posting on a forum, one has to be careful and as clear as possible, even understanding that being careful still means that things will be taken differerntly than what was intended.

Beef.. you are right in that i was directly responding to your post. You had made that point a few times and people had attempted to explain their thoughts. The !?!?! Was out of frustration but not entirely at your comment....its in general at the priory nit-pickyniss I have experienced the past 2 days.... and you are right... on forums where body language is not a factor... "typing um... typing um..what do you call that? typing face" is.

You have made a good case for your own point... as I have said to you ... I DID NOT take it personally nor was I upset, I just OPPOSE your view (and I use caps cuz I cant figure out the I or the B....

And even though I said that I did not take offense to it...you continue to pursue it as if I were... so your point is well taken... YOU CANT assume that because someone opposes you ... they are upset with you... And let me be perfectly plain... I am NOT offended by ANYTHING you have posted in THIS post, I do not think you have been irreverant, disrespectful, arrogant, rude, etc. I just do not agree with everything you have said.

And another point.... which I made early on... I believe on a diff. thread... sometimes it doesnt matter if you explain yourself or not... if someone (and to be perfectly clear beef - I am not in ANY way referring to you DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY in any way shape or form) doesnt want to believe you, then you can repeat, change your words, etc ON A FORUM... and they can still choose not to believe you. And at that point.. it is best to walk away from that person, in my opinion than to keep antagonizing the situation - as I do NOT believe that the prophets meant that when they told us to discuss/debate doctrine.

[Guest missingsomething]

I hope you don't mind me sharing this Pam, but a while back Pam and I were both posting on the same thread. We both were arguing/sharing our various views. At one point, I inadvertently attacked Pam and she called me on it. And I am grateful she did. Because I had forgotten that while arguing any perspective, I must remember that there are real people, with real feelings and varied life experience, on the other side of the interchange. And I hope Pam felt that I had recognized my mistake.

In the end, what we do and what we preach should, in my mind, never overshadow the importance of the people involved.

And then just in another related thought......I think we mormons get so excited about the "truth" that we start creating "should's" -- "should's" that we start superimposing on each other. I think I hate that ( and I do it too) because while the truth is inspiring and clarifying, I can't always attain that truth today or tomorrow or even when I think I should. So, while we understand and debate the heights and depths of everything, we need to be accommodating of reality and human weakness just as our Father in Heaven is.

Good point. I believe that if someone calls you out... or says they have hurt feelings you SHOULD if you are living according to the gospel, apologize.

[Carl62]

Hmmm, over the last 8-10 posts that I've read, has there been debating or merely discussion going on? Like I said before, it's veeerrry difficult to separate the two.

[Misshalfway]

What? When was this? I seem to have forgotten anything about this. :)

Awesome! I guess that forgive and forget thing really works!

[Snow]

I hope you don't mind me sharing this Pam, but a while back Pam and I were both posting on the same thread. We both were arguing/sharing our various views. At one point, I inadvertently attacked Pam and she called me on it.

Interesting that you say that because I had a recent experience with Pam but it was the other way around. She disagreed with something I said so she took a safety razor and sliced horizontal cuts across my bare buttocks and then forced me to sit down in large bowl of gin.

YOWZA! That stung I can tell you.

Frankly, I think she was mean and wholly inappropriate.

[Moksha]

Awesome! I guess that forgive and forget thing really works!

With Pam's maturity, forgiving and forgetting becomes much easier.

[prospectmom]

roflmbo:::rofl::haha

I think that says it all Snow.... no offense Pam:D

Now I know there is a limit of smiles you can use..........

[HEthePrimate]

Do the prophets provoke us to think (as in outside the box) intend us to question... if it brings the spirit of contention. Or do they want us to just ponder and pray about something.

One gentleman today said that they do want us to debate... and a sister said discuss not debate.

Depends on the prophet! The prophets are real people, not clones of each other. They have their own opinions, agendas, and ways of operating. Some of them will encourage questioning, others won't. Personally, I think questioning is not only permissible, but necessary to true religion. The Restoration would never have happened, after all, had not Joseph Smith asked questions--he really went out on a limb!

Asking questions and openly discussing things do not automatically "bring the spirit of contention." The spirit of contention is something that we, as individuals, bring to the table and does not flow from the act of questioning. When you discuss things with people, remember that they are people, worthy of your love and respect even if their opinion is stupid. That should help avoid contention.

Peace,

HEP

[pam]

Interesting that you say that because I had a recent experience with Pam but it was the other way around. She disagreed with something I said so she took a safety razor and sliced horizontal cuts across my bare buttocks and then forced me to sit down in large bowl of gin.

YOWZA! That stung I can tell you.

Frankly, I think she was mean and wholly inappropriate.

And you liked it. Admit it. Though now I must admit. The sight of your bare buttocks was almost (notice I said almost) enough to get me to swear off disagreeing with people and dealing out punishments.

Edited July 29, 2009 by pam