Obama's Healthcare?? Plan

[Just_A_Guy]

Concur that the "me too"-ism is feeble. Maybe we need a doctors-only tea party?

I just don't think we should dismiss out-of-hand his claim to have spoken to "thousands" in the medical profession.

[FunkyTown]

Concur that the "me too"-ism is feeble. Maybe we need a doctors-only tea party?

I just don't think we should dismiss out-of-hand his claim to have spoken to "thousands" in the medical profession.

YES! Absolutely. The tea party thing is a great idea. Someone should motivate Doctors to take a stand - For if they're for it, against if they're against.

The tea party thing bugs me, not because I hate the idea of people standing up for what they believe in, but because both sides are reporting radically different things. Glenn Beck reported 1.7 million, CNN reported 60, 000-70, 000.

The worst part about ALL of this is that every mainstream media outlet has taken down their estimates for the numbers from their websites, which means I couldn't even post to links of their claims.

SOMEONE is lying about their numbers. We can safely say that Glenn Beck exaggerated the numbers. That's fine: He's not a news station.

Here's a photo from California:

And here's one from Pittsburgh:

And finally Austin:

Austin looks a little sparse, or at least there's no way to tell how many people are there given the photo is right near the front where the most people would be.

However, it's ridiculous that, given that the DC police unofficially tweeted:

(under the handle @dcfireems) at 11:43am “UPDATE - several people treated for injury and illness on the Mall nothing extraordinary unofficial crowds 60,000-75,000 UNOFFICIAL.”

Assuming their head count wasn't radically off, even if this was the biggest headcount for any of the rallies, this would still put their numbers radically low.

FreedomWorks said ABC quoted 1.7 million at the rallies. That was a lie. ABC didn't quote that number. That's fine - I don't turn to FreedomWorks for my news and anybody who does most likely believe Obama is Satan anyway.

Nothing irritates me more than news outlets being used for political gain and assassination. That's why I don't watch American news any more. The world was being lied to by those outlets. Not just had the other side demonized or numbers inflated: They actively LIED about those.

This has gone off on a slight rant. Ahem.

Long story short: Get the people to speak. The news outlets no longer have any political currency to spend. Only a real protest by real doctors will get my attention.

[Just_A_Guy]

Funky, I don't recall the sources--most of them came via Instapundit, so you can probably find them in an online search--but some group was counting people at the DC protest as they came marching up the street and stopped relatively early-ish at around 400,000.

I think a ballpark of one million is about right.

[FunkyTown]

Funky, I don't recall the sources--most of them came via Instapundit, so you can probably find them in an online search--but some group was counting people at the DC protest as they came marching up the street and stopped relatively early-ish at around 400,000.

I think a ballpark of one million is about right.

Given the radical difference of opinion between the various groups, I like the DC Police unofficial count the most.

That seems the most accurate. I can't imagine the numbers of the tea party being the same as the Million Man March.

Unless DC looked like this?

http://wf360.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452408569e2010536e22d78970b-400wi

It wasn't a million people. THAT would have been impossible to hide.

[Just_A_Guy]

I did a google search, and there seem to be precious few areal photos available of the Mall itself during the rally (though photos of an adjacent street [Pennsylvania Avenue?] near the Capitol show it being packed, and that's where the count was taking place).

I'd certainly take any estimate made at 11:30 AM with a grain of salt. The one you cite is suspiciously close to the since-retracted estimate of the DC Fire Department.

[rameumptom]

Funkytown wrote:

So I would like everyone here to take the time and find out if they have ever spoken with thousands of people in a similar job - Automakers with other automakers, dentists with other dentists, etc.

Has anyone received his references on these thousands of colleagues? Names? Addresses?

No. Because it's absurd that he would have that information. It's also absurd that he spoke with thousands of his coworkers to get opinions.

Why absurd? In a day of Facebook and online polls, you don't think a doctor cannot quickly check with a thousand or two other doctors about their feelings on a topic?

I know I could quickly get hundreds, if not thousands, of opinions in just a matter of a couple days from various groups, using the Internet.

[talisyn]

AP Poll: Health care overhaul hanging in there - Yahoo! News

The AP-GfK poll was conducted Oct. 1-5, based on a nationally representative sample of 1,003 adults age 18 or older, contacted by telephone on land lines and cell phones. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.1 percentage points for results based on the entire sample.

The polls that showed the opposite reaction were taken by the same very miniscule amount of people. Do you want to have faith in polls? Or only when the results are what you already agree with?

[Just_A_Guy]

AP Poll: Health care overhaul hanging in there - Yahoo! News

The polls that showed the opposite reaction were taken by the same very miniscule amount of people. Do you want to have faith in polls? Or only when the results are what you already agree with?

I like this poll better. And this one.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[FunkyTown]

Funkytown wrote:

Why absurd? In a day of Facebook and online polls, you don't think a doctor cannot quickly check with a thousand or two other doctors about their feelings on a topic?

I know I could quickly get hundreds, if not thousands, of opinions in just a matter of a couple days from various groups, using the Internet.

Please provide source where, within a couple of days, you could get 1000 of any single job description to give an opinion. I'm interested.

[talisyn]

I like this poll better. And this one.

I stopped believing in polls about the same time I stopped believing in carbon dating

[talisyn]

I like this poll better. And this one.

Your first poll

Pew Research Center

9/30-10/4/2009; 1,500 adults, +/- 3% margin of error

Mode: Live telephone interviews

And your second poll is the same one

[Just_A_Guy]

Apologies; I meant for the second link to go to a Quinnipiac poll with similar results, here.

[Just_A_Guy]

Fined for Inadequate Insurance in Massachusetts.

From what I gather, this couple's plan was initially approved by the state. But a few years later the state rules changed; the state withdrew its approval because health care plans were now required to have a deductible no higher than $2000 and the couple's plan deductible was $2500. As a result, the couple is now paying an additional $1000 per year to Massachusetts in addition to $300 per month to their health insurer.

ObamaCare will inherently set a bar. How do we keep that bar from moving?

[talisyn]

Is this the same plan that our favorite LDS Rep. presidential candidate set up when he was gov. over there?

[Just_A_Guy]

Yeppers. People will pass blame about how the Dems "ruined it" after Mitt left office. But the beast was born on his watch.

[talisyn]

Behold, the Defenders of the American Taxpayers!

Insurers escalate criticism of health overhaul - Yahoo! News

[Just_A_Guy]

Of course they're going to scream and howl. President Obama is on-record as saying, in effect, that his long-term goal is to put them all out of business.

For the HMOs this isn't just about preserving a sweet gig (health insurance is not a particularly profitable industry, anyways). This is about survival.

Never, never forget that.

[Moksha]

I stopped believing in polls about the same time I stopped believing in carbon dating

Stick with LDS Singles for dating.

[Just_A_Guy]

Whoops!

The [uK] National Health Service has spent £1.5m paying for hundreds of its staff to have private health treatment so they can leapfrog their own waiting lists.

[talisyn]

What I want is a system where the insurance companies can go and do whatever with their own customers, but those who cannot get insurance through the companies will get some sort of coverage through the gov't. It seems very 'dog in the manger' of insurance companies to be crying over all those people getting gov't insurance when they wouldn't cover them in the first place! As for your tax dollars covering them, let's look at it this way. Your tax dollars can go for things like military and roads and forest service, and mine and those of us who like the idea of universal coverage will support those who need the gov't. No one is being forced to pay for something they don't want. Easy, right?

[annewandering]

I actually read a science fiction story where on a certain day everyone in the country went to their computer and said what they wanted their tax dollars to go for. In the story it worked very well saying that people will be responsible if they have a choice.

No one paid for anything they disagreed with. It was interesting.

[Just_A_Guy]

Indeed. What if the 1040 was similar to a tithing donation slip? :)

[talisyn]

That would be so cool!

[unixknight]

This from a post I wrote on another forum in a debate, that I thought I'd share here.

Have you ever heard the saying "If you give a man a fish, he will eat a single meal. If you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime?" That's what we Conservatives are about. We want to help people, but we want to do it in a way that encourages them to return to self-sufficiency if at all possible. In fact, I'd say we have a GREATER moral obligation to help people to become self reliant than to simply throw money at them.

Want to know why?

Imagine you have to rely on me for your food. Let's pretend that, for whatever reason, I am the source of your meals. You have to come to me 3 times a day or you go hungry. Am I really helping you? Sure, I'm giving you free food, but is this truly an act of charity?

Think about your answer for a second.

The answer is that it is NOT an act of charity. That's because as long as you rely on me for your food, I have POWER over you. I can CONTROL you. I can withhold food from you if you do not do what I want. I can dictate what you eat. I can dictate how often you eat. I can dictate how much you eat. I have power over you because I have made you dependent upon me.

On the other hand, we Conservatives believe in empowering YOU to make those decisions. We would rather teach you to fish, to farm, to cook, to gather, to harvest. Sure, we'll give you food in the meantime so that you won't starve, but you will learn to feed YOURSELF so that NOBODY may have power over you, even us. You alone will decide what you eat, when you eat, how much you eat, and you needn't submit to ANYONE in order to feed yourself.

Statists perfer the former. Conservatives prefer the latter.

[applepansy]

America's New Health Care Plan: Don't Get Sick!