Canadian health care will kill you

[FunkyTown]

I've never seen a person doing such a poor job of side stepping an obvious question in my life.

I realize that what I said was very complex and you might have missed the subtext, so I'll use quotes so that you don't think I'm sidestepping the issue, Believer, since I assume you're directing that at me.

Do you have any real numbers or are you just spinning things to make your POV look better?

And I replied with:

No.

Now, there were more words than that, but I'm going to remove all the confusing ones. However, just to make it perfectly clear and plain, let me quote again. You might have to read a second time to get the context straight and to get my quote:

John Doe asked:

Do you have any real numbers or are you just spinning things to make your POV look better?

And I replied with:

No.

If you're still confused, read it a few more times, just those words.

Now, if you're not confused, I can continue.

I have reports - From both Canadian and American sources - Of people coming to Canada for treatment. Not only that, some people on here have also admitted to going elsewhere for treatment. Do I have exact numbers? Of course not. I believe it was a silly question John Doe was asking because the people who are doing it are illegal. If I had exact numbers and there were a way to verify them, the Canadian government would have stopped them long ago.

So... Just in case you're confused and just in case you still think I'm sidestepping the question, I will be very very careful. Ready, Believer? This is for you. Let me know if you think I'm sidestepping the question. All right... here it comes... John Doe - The person I'm assuming you said is asking the question... He asked:

Do you have any real numbers or are you just spinning things to make your POV look better?

And I replied with:

No.

Do you still think I'm sidestepping the question? Would you like me to try to make it more plain?

As for John Doe: Since you didn't respond, I can assume that you understand what I'm saying. Independent news agents - Articles written neither by me nor my associates - Articles written by some Americans themselves and including numerous news agencies and newspapers across several decades - Had stated this was happening. They did not provide exact numbers, but they certainly suggested it was happening. If you disagree, please provide me with articles stating the number of Canadians going to the US for treatment.

[john doe]

I suppose it's possible you could be right, FT. Maybe Americans ARE beating a path to Canada, Mexico, and Cuba to take advantage of their healthcare systems. If they are, and those countries allow it to happen, then more power to them for finding a loophole. But that in no way means that a similar system would work in the US. In fact, so far even the US Government bean counters have not seen a plan that is financially viable or sound. Obama's been trying to find a reputable independent accounting office that will say any of these plans will work. The fact is, they won't. If the US adopts any of these plans floated so far, we will bevirtually bankrupt within 10 years. We all know Obama is looking for a legacy, but spending a country into oblivion isn't a legacy any man should be proud to have. And blaming the previous administration for the stupid things you do only works for so long, eventually you have to take responsibility for your agenda.

[FunkyTown]

I suppose it's possible you could be right, FT. Maybe Americans ARE beating a path to Canada, Mexico, and Cuba to take advantage of their healthcare systems. If they are, and those countries allow it to happen, then more power to them for finding a loophole. But that in no way means that a similar system would work in the US. In fact, so far even the US Government bean counters have not seen a plan that is financially viable or sound. Obama's been trying to find a reputable independent accounting office that will say any of these plans will work. The fact is, they won't. If the US adopts any of these plans floated so far, we will bevirtually bankrupt within 10 years. We all know Obama is looking for a legacy, but spending a country into oblivion isn't a legacy any man should be proud to have. And blaming the previous administration for the stupid things you do only works for so long, eventually you have to take responsibility for your agenda.

I agree John Doe. My snarkiness aside, in earlier posts I had stated that the issue was complex and there were arguments for both sides. I was merely pointing out when someone asked(I think it was you) if Americans were going to Canada for treatment, that it certainly wasn't unheard of. It was a big talking point in the last election that public health care drugs were being purchased through the subsidized Canadian prices and exported to the US for US citizens and this was increasing Canadian costs.

It's a tough question, to be fair. I believe the universal health care is important, but I have yet to see a system that was both:

A) Efficient (While I have fair coverage in the UK, I still do have private insurance - Plus, taxes are very high in the UK)

and;

B) Compassionate.

Eliminating public health care would certainly be the most efficient, but would it be compassionate?

A single payer system would certainly be the most compassionate, but would it be efficient?

Smarter people than I would have to solve the balancing act.

[Guest Believer_1829]

I realize that what I said was very complex and you might have missed the subtext, so I'll use quotes so that you don't think I'm sidestepping the issue, Believer, since I assume you're directing that at me.

And I replied with:

Now, there were more words than that, but I'm going to remove all the confusing ones. However, just to make it perfectly clear and plain, let me quote again. You might have to read a second time to get the context straight and to get my quote:

John Doe asked:

And I replied with:

If you're still confused, read it a few more times, just those words.

Now, if you're not confused, I can continue.

I have reports - From both Canadian and American sources - Of people coming to Canada for treatment. Not only that, some people on here have also admitted to going elsewhere for treatment. Do I have exact numbers? Of course not. I believe it was a silly question John Doe was asking because the people who are doing it are illegal. If I had exact numbers and there were a way to verify them, the Canadian government would have stopped them long ago.

So... Just in case you're confused and just in case you still think I'm sidestepping the question, I will be very very careful. Ready, Believer? This is for you. Let me know if you think I'm sidestepping the question. All right... here it comes... John Doe - The person I'm assuming you said is asking the question... He asked:

And I replied with:

Do you still think I'm sidestepping the question? Would you like me to try to make it more plain?

As for John Doe: Since you didn't respond, I can assume that you understand what I'm saying. Independent news agents - Articles written neither by me nor my associates - Articles written by some Americans themselves and including numerous news agencies and newspapers across several decades - Had stated this was happening. They did not provide exact numbers, but they certainly suggested it was happening. If you disagree, please provide me with articles stating the number of Canadians going to the US for treatment.

all kidding aside, John Doe's question was what about the stories in the media of Canadians coming to America for health care. You have conveniently avoided that part of his question, so I will assist you (seems us Americans always have to help to foreigners out)...

American Thinker Blog: Critically Ill Canadians Rushed to US for Care

Health Care BS - Canadians Running to U.S. for Health Care

***See we can both quote things about cross border health care in an attempt to support our view. So how about this? You worry about Canada and your own government and you let us Americans worry about ourselves. That would be swell. ***

[FunkyTown]

***See we can both quote things about cross border health care in an attempt to support our view. So how about this? You worry about Canada and your own government and you let us Americans worry about ourselves. That would be swell. ***

Hey! That's great. I will let Americans worry about themselves. Tell you what: You allow the President who was duly represented by a majority of the populace do their job without constantly moaning about it on the board here and I won't mention it, either, okay? That would be swell.

After all, if I'm going to listen to Americans, you should listen to Americans too. And the majority of Americans elected Obama.

I should also point out... I want you to read what your post said very VERY carefully. Okay?

You posted a link that says this on the healthcarebs website:

It would appear that Canadians with sufficient financial means are seeking medical treatment in a country where such waiting lists exist only in the the fond dreams of single-payer advocates.

Now... You may or may not have noticed that I posted several times before that, yes, I agreed that Canadians who were wealthy were going to the US.

I'm fairly certain everyone but you may have noticed that about my postings. I will reiterate... Once more...

Canadians who are wealthy will go to the US.

It's the poor who are losing out.

Not one person is going to say "Hey! A pure free market medical system will be terrible for the wealthy!"

I would never argue that. I also would never argue that a socialist car industry would be better for the wealthy, or a universal cable package would be better for the wealthy.

You might be surprised to hear me say this, but... Rich people? They can often times get better things than poor people. I know, I know. It's a strange concept.

But a universal health care plan would certainly be better for the people who can't afford it.

Edited August 8, 2009 by FunkyTown

[Guest Believer_1829]

Hey! That's great. I will let Americans worry about themselves. Tell you what: You allow the President who was duly represented by a majority of the populace do their job without constantly moaning about it on the board here and I won't mention it, either, okay? That would be swell.

After all, if I'm going to listen to Americans, you should listen to Americans too. And the majority of Americans elected Obama.

I should also point out... I want you to read what your post said very VERY carefully. Okay?

You posted a link that says this on the healthcarebs website:

Now... You may or may not have noticed that I posted several times before that, yes, I agreed that Canadians who were wealthy were going to the US.

I'm fairly certain everyone but you may have noticed that about my postings. I will reiterate... Once more...

Canadians who are wealthy will go to the US.

It's the poor who are losing out.

Not one person is going to say "Hey! A pure free market medical system will be terrible for the wealthy!"

I would never argue that. I also would never argue that a socialist car industry would be better for the wealthy, or a universal cable package would be better for the wealthy.

You might be surprised to hear me say this, but... Rich people? They can often times get better things than poor people. I know, I know. It's a strange concept.

But a universal health care plan would certainly be better for the people who can't afford it.

You are a pretty funny guy, but I am betting I can find posts from the past from you supporting those attacking George Bush and his policies.

Yep, the poor are losing out and they will lose out even more if we go socialist as proven by your own words trying to refute my words.

And around we go. Worry about your own country.

[FunkyTown]

You are a pretty funny guy, but I am betting I can find posts from the past from you supporting those attacking George Bush and his policies.

Yep, the poor are losing out and they will lose out even more if we go socialist as proven by your own words trying to refute my words.

And around we go. Worry about your own country.

Hahah. Okay! I take that bet.. I bet for every 'Attack' on George Bush, I can find a post advocating moderation.

However, and because you haven't been here, I will definitely let you know why I am willing to discuss these things:

The vast majority of church members are staunchly conservative. When they post things that are nothing but anti-Democrat/Anything left of center, it makes people think 'The church' is anti-Democrat. Believe it or not, people judge the church based upon how members act on here.

Ironically, my snarkiness doesn't really help. I get frustrated and lose my temper easy, which is something I'm working on. I advocate a more moderate approach. If you search my postings, I often agree with posts that say 'Obama spends too much money'. I do not agree with 'Obama is the Antichrist' posts. I will often agree with 'Socialized policies tend to create awkward, expensive versionsof more free market policies', but I will not agree with things like 'Any taxation is theft' or 'Any socialized programs are evil'.

When people loudly post things like that, it chases people away from the church who might be investigating. They won't say anything, because they feel like they have no place here. I've heard the complaints from people and I'm sure you have as well, of people with slightly different political affiliations feeling marginalized in the church.

I should also point out:

Yep, the poor are losing out and they will lose out even more if we go socialist as proven by your own words trying to refute my words.

And around we go. Worry about your own country.

You can consider this a 'point' or a 'score' or whatever. I have not, nor have I ever, claimed that Communism or true Socialism is an ideal state. I have agreed in many posts that it tends to raise costs, much like the Pentagon gets charged $50 for a nail because it's a government program and people abuse it.

However, I do believe the alternative of 'No health care for the poor' is also not acceptable. And I should also point out that saying 'Worry about your own country.' is silly. Having an opinion on things that can help the poorest of the world is not wrong. I'm fairly certain Jesus never said 'Okay, Jews. Help other Jews. Let the Samaritans worry about their own people.'

If you can show me that in the bible, I'd be glad to allow that he was right and I was wrong.

[Maxel]

Let's all play nice... Or I'll ask permission to bust out my Mega Buster again.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Hahah. Okay! I take that bet.. I bet for every 'Attack' on George Bush, I can find a post advocating moderation.

However, and because you haven't been here, I will definitely let you know why I am willing to discuss these things:

The vast majority of church members are staunchly conservative. When they post things that are nothing but anti-Democrat/Anything left of center, it makes people think 'The church' is anti-Democrat. Believe it or not, people judge the church based upon how members act on here.

Ironically, my snarkiness doesn't really help. I get frustrated and lose my temper easy, which is something I'm working on. I advocate a more moderate approach. If you search my postings, I often agree with posts that say 'Obama spends too much money'. I do not agree with 'Obama is the Antichrist' posts. I will often agree with 'Socialized policies tend to create awkward, expensive versionsof more free market policies', but I will not agree with things like 'Any taxation is theft' or 'Any socialized programs are evil'.

When people loudly post things like that, it chases people away from the church who might be investigating. They won't say anything, because they feel like they have no place here. I've heard the complaints from people and I'm sure you have as well, of people with slightly different political affiliations feeling marginalized in the church.

I should also point out:

You can consider this a 'point' or a 'score' or whatever. I have not, nor have I ever, claimed that Communism or true Socialism is an ideal state. I have agreed in many posts that it tends to raise costs, much like the Pentagon gets charged $50 for a nail because it's a government program and people abuse it.

However, I do believe the alternative of 'No health care for the poor' is also not acceptable. And I should also point out that saying 'Worry about your own country.' is silly. Having an opinion on things that can help the poorest of the world is not wrong. I'm fairly certain Jesus never said 'Okay, Jews. Help other Jews. Let the Samaritans worry about their own people.'

If you can show me that in the bible, I'd be glad to allow that he was right and I was wrong.

And yet because I disagree with Obama and Demoncrats on what they are attempting to push on us you automatically assume I don't have any moderate views. You are as judgmental as you accuse others of being. The poor here get excellent medical treatment, all they have to do is walk into a hospital with almost no questions asked, then they are sent a bill, which many elect not to pay. So really our system loses money helping people that can't and often won't pay.

[FunkyTown]

And yet because I disagree with Obama and Demoncrats on what they are attempting to push on us you automatically assume I don't have any moderate views. You are as judgmental as you accuse others of being. The poor here get excellent medical treatment, all they have to do is walk into a hospital with almost no questions asked, then they are sent a bill, which many elect not to pay. So really our system loses money helping people that can't and often won't pay.

I never said you had no moderate views. I was saying your posts have been extreme. I am sorry that it got heated. I've seen a few people quit this website or simply stop posting, like FunkyMunkey or Elphaba, because of the highly charged anti-Leftist sentiments expressed on here.

If you do a search on me, I have often counterpointed various posts. I have advocated more centrist views on things. To Charly in this thread alone, I explained why Universal Health Care wasn't a no-brainer and why there were nuances despite his claim that the poor lose out.

And you're right - The current laws do state Hospitals have to help Emergency patients. However, many people's savings are wiped out because of a bout with Cancer, or a heart attack. People who advocate universal health care have seen the failures of the current system.

And I have stated before that, yes, the Canadian system has failings - Long wait times, Doctors that flee to the US for better pay and lower working hours.

There is a better system. I'm sure of it - I just think we need to figure it out free from partisan politics. Sadly, every time it gets in front of someone, a bill will get larger and less wieldy as concessions are made to individuals at the expense of the majority.

[Charlyc]

What's AMAZING is that you think we should TOTALLY pay for the care of people who break our laws to come here. Surely you can't think that's feasible.

Don't listen to that mongrel idiot. He's a simpleton.

If you're clearing $50k a year then you can afford insurance (unless you have like a family of 10 or something). Make some lifestyle changes and screw the NEW car. Are you SERIOUS? He needs a NEW car before he needs health insurance? Nice priorities.

The TB that illegal catches is just as contagious as the TB you pick up from him and can get treatment for. It would be better though if they treated that illegal and he didn't pass it onto you. But TB isn't that common so maybe the example should be hepA or B or just the common flue?

At least we can agree on Hannity , but about the young man clearing 50k I think you missed the point here. Sure his priorities are screwed but he is still uninsured and in that estimate of 40 mil those 'lefties' talk about. Plus there will always be irresponsible youth in all countries, that's why they are 'young', but countries that have a health system safety net can pick him up if the worst happens during his years of foolishness but in america he will most likely end up a bankrupt, and that assuming a hospital will actually fix both broken legs and arms completely after his car crash.

After this small 'discussion' here (with majority right wingers) I'm more convinced than before that what seems to be happening now in american culture is an almost obsession with the individual and individual rights above any government or community agreements, except if you need to support a foreign war run by that same government. Ironic that bit. So then this 'individualism' above all trumps any community safety net and, in my book, will end up destroying any national unity. But then again that's what the prophesies say about the US, right? after wasting its youth and treasure on foreign wars it will then fall apart? Shame though that so many mormons seem to support this slow destruction of the USA, supporting illegal wars, like Iraq, stopping any improvements to general health care, even still quoting Reagan -who after all change america into the worlds biggest debtor entity. But Reagan spoke a lot about 'individual rights' and keeping government away right? ..Shame...

[Maxel]

...but about the young man clearing 50k I think you missed the point here. Sure his priorities are screwed but he is still uninsured and in that estimate of 40 mil those 'lefties' talk about. Plus there will always be irresponsible youth in all countries, that's why they are 'young', but countries that have a health system safety net can pick him up if the worst happens during his years of foolishness but in america he will most likely end up a bankrupt, and that assuming a hospital will actually fix both broken legs and arms completely after his car crash.

Ummm... So, a foolish man's wise neighbor should be legally forced to pay for the foolishness of the foolish?

By the way, I'd love to see a statistic of how many people with four broken limbs are refused health care in the U.S.A. I'm willing to wager that it's not very high.

After this small 'discussion' here (with majority right wingers) I'm more convinced than before that what seems to be happening now in american culture is an almost obsession with the individual and individual rights above any government or community agreements,

Darn straight! That idea of individual rights is the entire basis of the Constitution- a document that the LDS Church officially recognizes as a document divinely inspired by God.

So then this 'individualism' above all trumps any community safety net and, in my book, will end up destroying any national unity.

Your opinion doesn't hold water in reality. That very idea of the rights of the individual- the idea of the right of men to live their lives without overt government intrusion- is a major ideology that the Founding Fathers of America rallied behind, an ideology that fueled the Revolutionary War, and an ideology that created the national unity that fed the fire of the American's righteous indignation.

You also might be interested in studying Ayn Rand's economic theories, and notice how the 'virtue of selfishness' (as she calls it) helps fuel scientific and industrial progress and, therefore, the quality of living for everyone. You might then be well-benefited by comparing Rand's theories against the industrial history of America (and the world), and notice that every major leap forward in science and any industry has been wrought by the private enterpriser (the one who embodies the ideology of 'individual rights').

But then again that's what the prophesies say about the US, right? after wasting its youth and treasure on foreign wars it will then fall apart?

Which prophesies are those?

[Charlyc]

Perhaps Canada needs to erect miles of fence to keep the poor huddled masses of Americans yearning for health care on their own wretched shores.

The nerve of those Yankees!!!

Keep them damn yankees out! They all have contagious diseases.

[Just_A_Guy]

Plus there will always be irresponsible youth in all countries, that's why they are 'young', but countries that have a health system safety net can pick him up if the worst happens during his years of foolishness but in america he will most likely end up a bankrupt . . .

Hmm. Based on your understanding of American law, Charlyc:

a) What does it mean to be "bankrupt"?

b) What happens to a person who is legally declared "bankrupt"?

[bytor2112]

It's a tough question, to be fair. I believe the universal health care is important, but I have yet to see a system that was both:

My mom recently had major back surgery....no health insurance. She is 63 and has had some health problem or another most of her life and either couldn't get health insurance or couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for it. The back surgery, medication and physical therapy...costing tens of thousands of dollars was paid for by Vocational Rehab. Without this program, my mom likely would have ended up in a wheel chair. Is it her fault that she was without coverage....probably so.

I pay approximately $3000.00 per year for major medical coverage for myself and family. The same coverage from the same Insurer will have many different costs depending on the state which you live. Pretty stupid right? That could easily be fixed.....don't you think?

Medicaid is a State sponsored Health Care program for low income households....why not increase these programs and make more people eligible? I understand that $3000.00 which is really pretty cheap as insurance costs go....is too big a bite for some to chew, so why not increase medicaid?????

What about Medicare? U.S. citizens are automatically eligible for Medicare at age 65.....why not lower the age and increase coverages?

I am sure there are other ideas that don't involve a government takeover. Tax cuts, tax credits, government vouchers.......oh yeah, and lets do what John McCain suggested during the debates and take a chainsaw to the budget and eliminate waste....and then follow up with what Barack Obama said during the debates and take a scalpel to it and SURELY we can reduce wastefully deficit spending by billions....maybe trillions and THAT would help pay for some of the above suggestions.

But alas....that falls on deaf ears......

[Charlyc]

Ummm... So, a foolish man's wise neighbor should be legally forced to pay for the foolishness of the foolish?

So never help thy neighbor?

By the way, I'd love to see a statistic of how many people with four broken limbs are refused health care in the U.S.A. I'm willing to wager that it's not very high.

Point is that if he is treated he'll end up financially ruined or bankrupt due to the cost, if they do treat him fully since there are several outpatient visits after broken limbs surgery. Its not just the one operation where things are put back in place.

Darn straight! That idea of individual rights is the entire basis of the Constitution- a document that the LDS Church officially recognizes as a document divinely inspired by God.

Ummm...so only a GOP interpretation of that constitution is legit before God? and Roe v Wade...never mind. And didn't that constitution set up a congress to pass legislation? like on national health care? or Obama's current proposal? why is that constitution inspired by God when it agrees with the GOP but not when the Dems are the majority?

Your opinion doesn't hold water in reality. That very idea of the rights of the individual- the idea of the right of men to live their lives without overt government intrusion- is a major ideology that the Founding Fathers of America rallied behind, an ideology that fueled the Revolutionary War, and an ideology that created the national unity that fed the fire of the American's righteous indignation.

Interesting that it only applies to the US person, that those same rights don't extent to, say, an Iraqi pre-2003? that same government that can't get into your house can bomb some Iraqi house (collateral damage off course)

.. Ayn Rand's economic theories, and notice how the 'virtue of selfishness' (as she calls it) and notice that every major leap forward in science and any industry has been wrought by the private enterpriser (the one who embodies the ideology of 'individual rights').

Which prophesies are those?

So Gekko was right , wasn't he. And those major leaps forward, would it include satellites? Nuclear power? Supersonic flight? all government programs, oh the internet was private enterprise? well not really but lets call it private since google's a private company. I wouldn't count the Apollo program since it didn't achieve much?

The prophesies are extensive from BY, Pratt, JFS, and others and are easily found. Last book I read on these was forwarded by ETBenson -who was certainly GOP stock- and mentioned all these -that the US would be'saved' by the west, which has already happened with IT etc, and the state will fight against state.....maybe over heatlh care? no j/k..

[pam]

What about Medicare? U.S. citizens are automatically eligible for Medicare at age 65.....why not lower the age and increase coverages?

There's hardly enough money to run this program as it is. Adding even more people of a younger age would probably run the program out of existence.

[pam]

Okay anyway...this thread had to do with Canadian Health Care...Not the US problems.

[bytor2112]

There's hardly enough money to run this program as it is. Adding even more people of a younger age would probably run the program out of existence.

Of course you are right.......unless you do as I suggested and slash wasteful spending and sure up the program with the savings, it would never work. Point is....we don't have to reinvent the wheel, just put some air in the tires.

[Charlyc]

Hmm. Based on your understanding of American law, Charlyc:

a) What does it mean to be "bankrupt"?

b) What happens to a person who is legally declared "bankrupt"?

Ummm.... bankruptcy is bad? Or is it Ok now in the ol USA? No wonder you can print up so much cash and be OK with it, but that's another issue.

[pam]

Okay here is the thing. If we can't get back to the OP topic and quit bashing countries..I'm going to close this.

[Maxel]

So never help thy neighbor?

Help they neighbor, but be wise and prudent in doing so.

Point is that if he is treated he'll end up financially ruined or bankrupt due to the cost, if they do treat him fully since there are several outpatient visits after broken limbs surgery. Its not just the one operation where things are put back in place.

To be perfectly honest, being financially "ruined" for the rest of his life is a far cry better than going through life a cripple because he didn't get treated at all. And we still have to remember this is the young man who bought a used car and was very foolish with his priorities- foolishness has its consequences.

Ummm...so only a GOP interpretation of that constitution is legit before God? and Roe v Wade...never mind. And didn't that constitution set up a congress to pass legislation? like on national health care? or Obama's current proposal? why is that constitution inspired by God when it agrees with the GOP but not when the Dems are the majority?

Nice tactic- argument shift. Brilliant, Charlyc. You fault Americans for talking about individual rights, then take the fact that God-given individual rights form the basis of an inspired document in stride and bring the argument back to Dems vs. Repubs debate? Are you serious? Are you faulting Americans for talking about and valuing what Mormonism almost outright states is godly?

Interesting that it only applies to the US person, that those same rights don't extent to, say, an Iraqi pre-2003? that same government that can't get into your house can bomb some Iraqi house (collateral damage off course)

I was against the Iraqi war. Most Republican Mormons I know were against it for some reason or another (granted, I don't talk politics or war with many Mormons). I would argue that individual rights should be granted to Iraqis as well.

So Gekko was right , wasn't he. And those major leaps forward, would it include satellites? Nuclear power? Supersonic flight? all government programs, oh the internet was private enterprise? well not really but lets call it private since google's a private company. I wouldn't count the Apollo program since it didn't achieve much?

I was mostly thinking of pre-1900's. I don't know much about what you mentioned, so I'll cede those points to you- although I'm sure someone more learned than I may take issue with one or all of them.

The prophesies are extensive from BY, Pratt, JFS, and others and are easily found. Last book I read on these was forwarded by ETBenson -who was certainly GOP stock- and mentioned all these -that the US would be'saved' by the west, which has already happened with IT etc, and the state will fight against state.....maybe over heatlh care? no j/k..

Do you remember the name of the book? I'd be interesting in reading them. Since they are easily found, do you think you could find a link to one or more, or remember a detail that would help me find them?

[Charlyc]

umm...what was the topic here?

[Moksha]

I think the Canadian Health Care system is able to conserve dollars during their hibernation cycle. Fewer accidents and steady weight loss.

[Charlyc]

Moksha, u is funny