Noah's Flood: Why I believe...

[Wingnut]

Believer, you've yet to address my points.

I hope you're not holding your breath. He's got you on ignore.

With the exception of DigitalShadow and myself, everyone who has posted in this thread is a member of your Church.

Technically, you are.

It seems to me that discussions like these tend to come down to a shouting match between the holier-than-thous and the more-educated-than-thous.

/me whines: Why can't I be holier-than-thou and more-educated-than-thou??

[MarginOfError]

At one point I considered the possibility that the Flood was a localized even blown out of proportion by Biblical writers, so I decided to examine the words about Noah in the Book of Mormon...

The Lord Jesus Christ quoting Isaiah says:

and in Ether we are informed...

So, apparently, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself believed that the "waters of Noah" covered the whole earth.

There is also research by those who do believe, that lend credibility to the story of a worldwide flood...

Scientific Evidence for a Worldwide Flood

There are many other things that could supplement your faith that come from outside of the scriptures, especially if you want to take a literal reading of the Bible. One problem with a world-wide flood is that the ark would have to have gone to an elevation where the air was too thin to breathe. Noah, his family, and all the animals would have suffocated.

Unless you take this little tidbit from Genesis 10:25: “And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided.” If the earth were divided at that time, say into continents, then it is likely the mountain ranges that exist now weren’t thrown up until the days of Peleg. It is then possible that the highest elevation of the land was lower and a worldwide flood could happen.

The other major problem with a worldwide flood is that the amount of water necessary to cover the earth is incredibly large. And given that our water runs in a cycle from oceans and streams and lakes into vapor and returns as rain, it would be hard to generate enough water to cover the entire earth. In fact, there is probably only enough water vapor in the air at any given time to cover a very small percentage of the earth. So where did all the water come from? Well, Genesis 7:11 reads “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” It seems that the fountains of the great deep may have had something to contribute. An interesting tidbit we get from this magazine article (Where Did The Moon Come From? | Solar System | DISCOVER Magazine) states that there is enough water contained in rocks to equal five times the volume of water in Earth’s oceans. Well, that’s quite a bit of water. So that just might do it.

However, to cover the earth, this fountains of the deep theory requires that the highest point be much lower than what it currently is (recall that the volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi^3).

Then again, the body of evidence we’ve been able to gather suggests that Mt. Everest was formed long before the days of Peleg. And with Everest being as high as it is, it’s a stretch to believe that there was a complete world-wide flood that anything terrestrial could survive. This lends plausibility to the local flood theory.

Personally, I can see them both as plausible, and I don’t really care which one is true. I think the debates about which one is or isn’t true are futile and sad exercises of people who have lost sight of what’s truly important in the Gospel. I strongly recommend that people not tie themselves to any one theory but instead learn the merits of all the theories. It’s easiest to be flexible and wait to discover the truth from the source when the time comes for it to be revealed.

[Just_A_Guy]

Not digressing at all, I'm glad you caught on to the meaning...

See anciently the High Priest was the intermediary between Israel and the Throne of God (represented by the Mercy Seat on the Arc of the Covenant),

And no one else could approach God?

but upon Christ's death the veil was torn and that separation only the High Priest could breach was open to all of God's children.

Which is why today any temple-recommend-bearing Church member can just walk into the Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple.

My point: Instead of waiting for someone you perceive as having more authority then you to receive an answer on the subject and to speak, you can go to the Throne of God yourself and gain that knowledge. He is waiting to give it to you.

My experience is that God prefers I study it out first.

[Guest Believer_1829]

And no one else could approach God?

Which is why today any temple-recommend-bearing Church member can just walk into the Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple.

My experience is that God prefers I study it out first.

Nevermind.

[NeuroTypical]

I have yet to refer to anyone as uneducated or less intelligent for their differing POV.

That's true. All you've done is implied Just_A_Guy of "arguing himself out of believing anything", implied that disagreeing with a global flood = not putting faith in God, implied that he is "Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth."

Then you tell Gatorman you're "merely expressing my belief". Well, no you're not, you're attacking Just_A_Guy personally with unrighteous and uncharitable implications. It is true you are not referring to anyone directly with an insult. You're dancing around and implying it.

Being unwilling to come out and insult him directly does put you outside of the normal YEC/Global Flood/Hollow Earth bag-o-tricks, but yeah... you may wish to consider how your tone and implications are not really adding to the persuasive elements you've offered...

LM

[Guest Believer_1829]

That's true. All you've done is implied Just_A_Guy of "arguing himself out of believing anything", implied that disagreeing with a global flood = not putting faith in God, implied that he is "Ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth."

Then you tell Gatorman you're "merely expressing my belief". Well, no you're not, you're attacking Just_A_Guy personally with unrighteous and uncharitable implications. It is true you are not referring to anyone directly with an insult. You're dancing around and implying it.

Being unwilling to come out and insult him directly does put you outside of the normal YEC/Global Flood/Hollow Earth bag-o-tricks, but yeah... you may wish to consider how your tone and implications are not really adding to the persuasive elements you've offered...

LM

I give up. You win. I am a horrible person.

[Hemidakota]

Oh man....I had to laugh. Sorry.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Oh man....I had to laugh. Sorry.

Well, I don't know what else to do.

[Hemidakota]

You simple make your case and provide any necessary scripture to back your beliefs then stop. Again, as I stated earlier, when it comes to certain truths not fully revealed by the Lord since members lack faith, it does prevents the church as a whole in receiving a greater portion of truths -

Here is so much knowledge that is withheld from us. To many questions we have to postpone the answers. If we had the faith we could answer them. The Lord is withholding knowledge from us because of our unworthiness. Read what is written in the 27th chapter of 2nd Nephi, the 26th chapter of 3rd Nephi, the 3rd and 4th chapters of Ether. In these chapters the Lord tells us that he is withholding from the world and from the Church the greatest revelation that was ever written. It is the history of this world from the beginning thereof to the ending. The Lord says, in the 27th chapter of 2nd Nephi, that it shall not come forth in the days of wickedness.

When Mormon was about to write in the 26th chapter of 3rd Nephi, the things Christ had said to the disciples, the Lord stopped him, saying: "I will try the faith of my people."

"And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them."

Even the plates handed to the late Prophet Joseph Smith remained sealed and contained the answer to Noah deluge. Explaining in greater clarity exactly what had happened and how it happened. But for now, noting the lack of worthiness and level of exercised faith in the church, even the Brother Jared was told by the Lord -

"And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are."

"For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord."

[Guest Believer_1829]

I just had no idea that me encouraging someone to seek answers straight from the Lord through prayer would be considered "belittling" them.

[bmy-]

I hope you're not holding your breath. He's got you on ignore.

Oh.. imagine that (I was holding my breath.. for a while). In that case.. Believer_1829 is intellectually dishonest..and he/she is also incapable of holding an intelligent discussion. Whew, got that off my chest

[Justice]

bmy-, Where does Genesis say the earth was created before the sun? And where does it say plants were created before the sun?

[Hemidakota]

Believer - Yes! It is call 'lack of faith'. Many will not even bother with asking the Lord. Even this simple statement provided, has it moments with many in the church -

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

I was asked by a local scholar a few years ago, "...how could Noah save all the different variations of fresh water fish?" This stumped me! After a lengthy research of 18-months, it was a surprising moment when the Holy Spirit led me to the answer and a confirmation was given. Prior, I managed to look at both side of deluge story, from the world view of a local flood to a baptismal global flood. After cumulating enough research data, my conclusion was a global flood. It was then I had asked the Lord on whether this was correct. The answer came later when I was ready to accept it. It is then I went back to answer the scholar question.

It is interesting how we speculate on a given limited biblical written topic and later corrected by the Spirit. We could talk about how the earth stood still.

[Hemidakota]

bmy-, Where does Genesis say the earth was created before the sun? And where does it say plants were created before the sun?

Interesting...side stepping here. Looking at Abraham chapter 4 and compare it to Moses version -

4:1-2. "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

"And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters."

The Lord, who had identified himself as Jehovah, went down with other GODS to organize and form the heavens and the earth from preexisting material. (Abraham 3:24.) Who were the other GODS? Michael, who was to become Adam, was one of them, we have been told by our prophets and through our temple. Michael and Jehovah would make two, accounting for the plural term "the Gods," but others may have been present. Was it the spirit of the Holy Ghost that was brooding upon the face of the waters?

Abraham's description of the primeval earth uses the terms "empty and desolate" rather than "without form and void." As indicated previously, Joseph Smith stated that these words were a far more descriptive translation of the Hebrew.

4:4-5. "And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

"And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night."

Plants came after after as stated in verse 12 and 13. It required a previous state sustain the next form of life.

[talisyn]

And sometimes he'll tell you to use your brain and figure it out on your own. To to look at evidence, to test that evidence, and come to logical conclusions.

This web page is doomed from the very first paragraph. It's clearly evident that the creation story in Genesis is inaccurate -- and that destroys the entire article from this Young Earth Creationism website.. since this is the first thing I came to in the article.. I'll start with how a literal interpretation of Genesis does not jive with the the accepted evolutionary theory.

Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition

My question I would like to ask you is this: How did predators survive in a post-flood world?

Hibernation. And science has never ever been proven wrong....usually by science

[JohnnyRudick]

You are right I am a bit defensive, as I have been called uneducated and less intelligent for daring to believe in the stories of the OT about Creation and the Flood, when at the beginning (of posting in general, not this particular thread) I was merely expressing my belief.

I stand with you believer.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

There are many other things that could supplement your faith that come from outside of the scriptures, especially if you want to take a literal reading of the Bible. One problem with a world-wide flood is that the ark would have to have gone to an elevation where the air was too thin to breathe. Noah, his family, and all the animals would have suffocated.

Unless you take this little tidbit from Genesis 10:25: “And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided.” If the earth were divided at that time, say into continents, then it is likely the mountain ranges that exist now weren’t thrown up until the days of Peleg. It is then possible that the highest elevation of the land was lower and a worldwide flood could happen.

The other major problem with a worldwide flood is that the amount of water necessary to cover the earth is incredibly large. And given that our water runs in a cycle from oceans and streams and lakes into vapor and returns as rain, it would be hard to generate enough water to cover the entire earth. In fact, there is probably only enough water vapor in the air at any given time to cover a very small percentage of the earth. So where did all the water come from? Well, Genesis 7:11 reads “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” It seems that the fountains of the great deep may have had something to contribute. An interesting tidbit we get from this magazine article (Where Did The Moon Come From? | Solar System | DISCOVER Magazine) states that there is enough water contained in rocks to equal five times the volume of water in Earth’s oceans. Well, that’s quite a bit of water. So that just might do it.

However, to cover the earth, this fountains of the deep theory requires that the highest point be much lower than what it currently is (recall that the volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi^3).

Then again, the body of evidence we’ve been able to gather suggests that Mt. Everest was formed long before the days of Peleg. And with Everest being as high as it is, it’s a stretch to believe that there was a complete world-wide flood that anything terrestrial could survive. This lends plausibility to the local flood theory.

Personally, I can see them both as plausible, and I don’t really care which one is true. I think the debates about which one is or isn’t true are futile and sad exercises of people who have lost sight of what’s truly important in the Gospel. I strongly recommend that people not tie themselves to any one theory but instead learn the merits of all the theories. It’s easiest to be flexible and wait to discover the truth from the source when the time comes for it to be revealed.

Well, Yes.

But, How many Angels

can dance on the head of a pin?

Bro. Rudick

[MarginOfError]

Well, Yes.

But, How many Angels

can dance on the head of a pin?

Bro. Rudick

13! and anyone that says differently is a fool and a liar!

[bmy-]

bmy-, Where does Genesis say the earth was created before the sun? And where does it say plants were created before the sun?

(Genesis 1:2)

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

(Genesis 1:11)

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." (

(Genesis 1:16)

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also."

Hibernation. And science has never ever been proven wrong....usually by science

Not all predators hibernate.. in fact.. most do not.

Edited August 13, 2009 by bmy-

[JohnnyRudick]

A little bit different take on Gen 1.:)

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Somewhere back there we have either a summery or a first creation of the heaven

and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

If it was a creation of the Heaven and the Earth we now have a time that

the Earth became without form and Void and a time of darkness on the

"face of the deep".

Define "the deep".

Someplace where there was a lot of water.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was

light.

We had a Creation and a voiding of that creation and darkness which may

infer that there was a previous not mentioned light and now we have that

light restored or uncovered again.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God

divided the light from the darkness.

Somehow.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he

called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

We have light.

Created long before the formation of any life that we now experience on this earth.

Before the Earth we experience was even regulated for us.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst

of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

We refer back to the Great Deep in verse 2.

Many think this is referring to the ocean but it you read closely

we see that in the middle of the waters God is ordering a "firmament"

and it is dividing the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters

which were under the firmament from the waters which were above

the firmament: and it was so.

This space between the "waters" in the midst of the "Deep" we find

is "Space" with waters on each side.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the

evening and the morning were the second day.

Now we zero in on the Earth on which we dwell and the events unfolding on it.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be

gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear:

and it was so.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the

gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that

it was good.

We still have that pre-existing "Light" which God restored when He

divided the Light from the Darkness.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the

herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his

kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb

yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose

seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third

day.

First we had Light then Physical Life upon the Earth.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament

of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be

for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Now after the grass is growing from the pre-existing "Light"

God sets the "Lights" that have to do with this Earth.

Yes, you are right.

And it does not make sense to us at all unless you see it with your Spiritual eyes.

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the

heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light

to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made

the stars also.

Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to

give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and

to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was

good.

Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth

day.

So now in four days we have the first great Light that started the plants of our Earth.

and the final creation of the Lights of this earth.

Could be that the Sun and other planets were already in place just not "lit up" yet.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth

abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may

fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living

creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,

after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God

saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and

multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply

in the earth.

Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth

day.

Five days we have "Life".

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living

creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of

the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his

kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth

upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The crowning glory of His creation is mankind.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after

our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the

sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over

all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon

the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image

of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be

fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of

the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb

bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every

tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you

it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl

of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat:

and it was so.

Man in the beginning was not to eat of the other creatures but

only the green herb.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and,

behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were

the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and

all the host of them.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he

had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work

which he had made.

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:

because that in it he had rested from all his work which God

created and made.

Then we are given a more detailed story of the creation having

to do with man which starts out telling us that all these things existed

". . .before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a

man to till the ground."

And then goes on to more detail the events before the "Fall".

Bro. Rudick

Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of

the deep is frozen.

Psalm 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth,

is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great

King.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and

hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass

like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round

about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and

behind.

Edited August 13, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought:) and some spelling corrections

[Maxel]

13! and anyone that says differently is a fool and a liar!

I once counted 14...

Dangit! Now the question is am I the fool, the liar, or both?

[Maxel]

I once counted 14...

Dangit! Now the question is am I the fool, the liar, or both?

Probably the fool, I'm afraid.

[Maxel]

Probably the fool, I'm afraid.

Don't attack me! I'm reporting you!

[Maxel]

Don't attack me! I'm reporting you!

See if I care, you lily-livered horned toad!

[/multiple-personalities]

[JohnnyRudick]

Now where is that button:confused:

Bro/ Rudick