Please help me? Please!!?

[pam]

I was actually hoping for Jbs who I talk to and would know I wasnt being combative to answer

Isn't that being a bit combative?

[Generally_Me]

Been there, did that. Lived a telestial law with a scummy guy, he was living said law with others (I was a naive teen but was eventually able to figure it out). Moved on, but I felt I was lost; spoke to my bishop and no good came out of it. I lived telestially with someone else. Got married civilly, not because we HAD to but because we WANTED to, and together we've been married 5 years, and are almost ready for the temple. The telestial law I was living, was a telestial law with "the rest of our lives" in my starry mind. I didn't just jump into bed with someone; it was someone I actually loved and wanted to be with.

I value the experience we've had, and the heartache. Alma 24:11 has been very valuable to me personally in the repentance process. Hubby was ordained an elder last month, it was one of the proudest moments of our married lives.

To the OP, your intentions and reasoning are your own. I definitely don't suggest doing anything because someone else thinks you should. The bishop that married us said "Why are you doing this? You don't HAVE to, even though you have lived sexually together". And we said, no, but we want to spend the rest of our lives together.

Now we want to spend eternity together.

Honey, the temple is most likely not an option anymore. Like Ram said, get married civilly or break up, or keep sinning.

(sorry this was so long, I was trying to pack in my experience, sans too many painful details, since that's what she was asking for).

[pam]

Great story Generally. Unfortunately not all work out that way. It's good to say one that is working in the right direction. Congrats to your husband on his ordination. That's awesome.

[Guest missingsomething]

Isn't that being a bit combative?

FIrst, is this as a mod or as a poster?

Because I find it funny - I was trying to explain that I was NOT being so.... yet... I have a target on my back from certain people because I dared to state I didnt like the way someone was talking to others. Now everything I say is scrutinized.

And since I'm sure you were not being accusatory since you said yourself that you do not know how people can get emotion/etc out of posts.... to clarify- I was not being combative. I disagree and stated so. And he specifically addressed me, so I was further clarifying I was specifically addressing an individual and was not challenging Ram. And that Jbs would KNOW me and know that I was not even challenging him....

Pam, if you have a problem with me posting - could you also please address it in PM as I am really not allowed to respond in forums to you since you are also a mod. And for the PUBLIC record Pam... I have no real problem with you and agree with a lot of your posts... and when others have been negative about you - I have personally stood up for you - so just so you are aware... this is NOT personal. :) I like the gingerbread man.... truly!! I just dont always agree with your point of view.

And Ram... if you felt it was combative... then please see the above. And I think I also addressed that when I explained why I felt comfortable asking JBS. And if you were offended - that was also not my intent and I was sincere about asking if you had references. This comes up a lot and any further knowledge I can have would be helpful.

Edited August 18, 2009 by missingsomething

[Guest missingsomething]

Thanks for these references missing something...they are helpful to my own situation.

You are so welcome. Im glad that someone finds it helpful. :)

[Misshalfway]

IF and that's a big IF someone is planning on getting married anyway but have problems with remaining chaste..I say get a civil marriage and then work on the repentance process to go to the temple. At least getting married when you plan on it anyway will keep the sin from perpetuating and allows them to deal with the repentance issues.

Keep in mind I'm not saying everyone that has sex should get married just to stop the sinning. I'm speaking of those that have plans on getting married anyway.

I agree with this too. I worry sometimes when people say break up or get married. I mean marriage is hard enough without everyone with a sex drive diving into it. I do however see how staying together and NOT having sex once that door is opened would be hard and perhaps a break up would allow at least one party to get clear and pointed toward repentance, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done.

But in this case they do sound like they are planning to get married anyway. So the advice makes sense.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Palerider]

I have a few thoughts on this....not that I know everything...:)

First of all....I have counciled with couples thay they should consider getting married civily first...my concerns were, I wasn't sure if they would make it to the Temple if they waited until one of them was able to go to the Temple because of temptation.

If a couple came to me and told me they broke the law of chasity, I might tell them to get married in the church first and then after they both repented they could plan on going to the Temple to be sealed. If one of the couple is from another ward, then I would call their Bishop and see if we concur on the inspiration.

As for the Poster who started the thread, Go see your Bishop, no one here can tell you what he will do or say. Trust me when I say this.

Again, thats my opinion and afterall, what do I know...:)

[rameumptom]

Missing Something,

Elder Holland once told me in a stake conference something that Pres Packer says frequently: we teach the doctrine, not the exceptions. The teachings you will find in Conference talks are the mainstream: marry in the temple, not outside of it. And for 99% of us that is the doctrine. But there still are exceptions to the rule.

We are told you have to be sealed in the temple for eternal life. What about those who do not get the chance? They weren't talked about much in General Conference hardly ever, because they were a small exception - until now. Now that many people are divorced or unable to marry, the General Authorities are discussing the exceptions because they have to.

There just isn't a big need to tell people over the Gen Conf pulpit who are having sex to marry civilly. However, Paul did give such guidance:

But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. (1 Cor 7:9).

If they had had sex once, I would suggest they maintain themselves and prepare for the temple. I know several people who have been given such guidance. However, in the case of several failures at remaining chaste - just how many years must they try and fail, and try and fail, before we give up on the idea of them just marrying to end the sinning, and then prepare for the temple?

On my mission in Bolivia, we came across many investigators who lived in common law marriages. Guess what? To baptize them, we first had to get them civilly married. We did not tell them to separate, live chaste, and wait a year for the temple ceremony. This was the guidance given by our mission president and Area Authority Presidency. This was an exception, not the rule. But it was an important exception that needed to be dealt with properly.

God is a pragmatic God. He has laws, but allows for exceptions. Nephi slew Laban on an exception of "Thou shalt not kill."

When a couple came to Brigham Young with the problem that the man could not perform to create kids, Brigham Young allowed the woman to marry for time to a second husband, to raise up children to the first/sealed husband. God is practical and pragmatic.

Pragmatism would state, fix the sin now. If you cannot keep it holstered, then marry civilly as part of the plan to overcome the sinning. Then begin preparing for the temple.

[dazed-and-confused]

i just want to thank Sljf1017 for this post, and for all the responses it has drawn. it has helped me with my own history as well, and i thank you all.

[lost87]

here is my question though....repentance means changing...if you get married just so sex isn't illegal anymore then isn't that kinda taking away the opportunity to change? you don't have to change and turn your desire away from that temptation just because it technically isn't a sin...but the fact that it is now ok to do doesn't mean youve changed and repented....right?

[ryanh]

Lost, the sin is in the use of sex outside of a divine sanction for it's use - marriage. One way to resolve that ("change" the situation) is to make the full and firm commitment that marriage entails. There will still be repentance necessary, but it isn't necessarily going to be "x months/years of abstinence". Because restitution is impossible, one is left completely dependent upon the Savior, and the remorse necessary to be encircled in the arms of His mercy.

See:

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland - Personal Purity

”In matters of human intimacy, you must wait! You must wait until you can give everything, and you cannot give everything until you are legally and lawfully married.”

[Guest missingsomething]

Lost, the sin is in the use of sex outside of a divine sanction for it's use - marriage. One way to resolve that ("change" the situation) is to make the full and firm commitment that marriage entails. There will still be repentance necessary, but it isn't necessarily going to be "x months/years of abstinence". Because restitution is impossible, one is left completely dependent upon the Savior, and the remorse necessary to be encircled in the arms of His mercy.

See:

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland - Personal Purity

”In matters of human intimacy, you must wait! You must wait until you can give everything, and you cannot give everything until you are legally and lawfully married.”

Point taken Ryan,

But I also get lost. Or I think I do... if you marry - then do you get the opportunity to change the behavior - as in... learn to overcome temptations.

I guess some guys can not imagine that it could be done... but it CAN be done. I lived with my husband before we got married. Until I met w/ the bishop we did have sex (I wasnt active at that point). When I met w/ the bishop we stopped completely until we got married 1 yr later.

RAM_ thank you for the explanation of your point of view. It makes sense. But I still have problems saying to someone who has said they want to go to the temple to just go get married anyways...because as you know many people never make it to that 1 yr sealing anniversary. One sin tends to lend way to more sins... and if they arent taken care of and learn how to avoid temptation (I know you can avoid all.... just saying)... then it makes them more vulnerable to not making it to the temple.

And I also still think - if you are going to be married, esp. for eternity, learning these skills and the strengths and weaknesses of their spouses is a good thing to become aware of before such a sacred commitment is made.

[Palerider]

here is my question though....repentance means changing...if you get married just so sex isn't illegal anymore then isn't that kinda taking away the opportunity to change? you don't have to change and turn your desire away from that temptation just because it technically isn't a sin...but the fact that it is now ok to do doesn't mean youve changed and repented....right?

This is my take on this......answer to your question is no...I don't think it does take away a "changing".....there are things that will need to be done and those will be given to them by their Bishop....it could involve a number of things......to fully repent you need to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. Also just because they are engaging in a sexual relationship does not always mean they will be encouraged to get married.

[utcowboy]

So I know there are alot of posts like this. But I need encouragement and know that there are real people out there who have had the same problem. Me and my boyfriend have broken the law of chastity. Enough to count on two hands. I felt guilty every time and so did he. We stopped for months I can't remember the last time we did it. But recently we did it again. We have been talking about marraige and even picked out a ring. But obviously we can't enter the temple. If this has happened to you or a related problem please tell me what YOU and your bf gf ended up doing. I'll eventually go to the bish. I just need to know that people have had these problems and everything worked out. And how you knew you were fully forgiven. I always feel bad when I pray. Like I am not worthy to feel the spirit or be close with my father. Can we get married in the temple?

Been here... done that... burned the t-shirt... :)

Remember that all can be forgiven. My wife and I are now married in the Temple, but we weren't always worthy to be here. We met several years ago in a bar, neither of us lived the life or religion that we were raised to live. But through hard work and understanding that those who were helping us return to the church were not trying to punish or harm us, we made the necessary changes and were welcomed back with opened arms.

Remember that the church wants you to return to your Father in Heaven. They will help you with whatever you need. But you also have to go through the repentance process, unfortunately no one can do that for you. You have to be sincere, remember the Lord requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

The devil will tell you every time that you don't need to pray, or that its a waste of time. From personal experience, it is anything but a waste of time. I know and will testify to you that prayer helps me make it through each and everyday. My children and wife will testify that they see a vast difference in me when I pray and when I don't. The same holds true with scripture study. My advice, seek the Lord... This life is hard enough, why would you want to willingly make it harder? He has said, come to me and I will make your burdens light. I ask you, how can we refuse? I hope you find the answers you are looking for, and I pray that the Lord and his Holy Spirit shall accompany you through out your days.... :)

[talisyn]

utcowboy, that was perfect.

[Palerider]

here is my question though....repentance means changing...if you get married just so sex isn't illegal anymore then isn't that kinda taking away the opportunity to change? you don't have to change and turn your desire away from that temptation just because it technically isn't a sin...but the fact that it is now ok to do doesn't mean youve changed and repented....right?

Another thing to remember...if the couple were to get married...you don't know what will happen to them. What I mean by that is....they could go on Bishop's Probation or could be disfellowshipped or even excommunicated. Just by saying getting married to make it legal is only a small fraction, because no one here knows what will happen to the people involved.

[utcowboy]

Another thing to remember...if the couple were to get married...you don't know what will happen to them. What I mean by that is....they could go on Bishop's Probation or could be disfellowshipped or even excommunicated. Just by saying getting married to make it legal is only a small fraction, because no one here knows what will happen to the people involved.

Very true... we must remember that we all have to pay for our sins. As the old saying goes... Do the crime and do the time. I don't want to discourage anyone from repenting, I want all to return to Christ, as fast as possible. But we have seem to forgotten that there is consequence to our actions, we want to be able to do whatever we want but not have to pay for it. In reality thats not possible, sooner or later it will be paid in full. And if I understand scripture correctly, its lot easier to pay for those sins here on earth with our mortal bodies then it will be when we reach the other side. Just my thoughts, thanks for taking the time to read them.

[Palerider]

Very true... we must remember that we all have to pay for our sins. As the old saying goes... Do the crime and do the time. I don't want to discourage anyone from repenting, I want all to return to Christ, as fast as possible. But we have seem to forgotten that there is consequence to our actions, we want to be able to do whatever we want but not have to pay for it. In reality thats not possible, sooner or later it will be paid in full. And if I understand scripture correctly, its lot easier to pay for those sins here on earth with our mortal bodies then it will be when we reach the other side. Just my thoughts, thanks for taking the time to read them.

I agree and thats what I am trying to put across

[rameumptom]

Point taken Ryan,

But I also get lost. Or I think I do... if you marry - then do you get the opportunity to change the behavior - as in... learn to overcome temptations.

In my view, the marriage is a part of the change required. People sometimes have options in their repentance process, and in this case it means celibacy or marriage. Neither is a wrong choice, rather both offer options towards a complete repentance.

But it is only a part of the repentance process. Worthiness to enter the temple still has to be earned, which can take a year or years to happen.

[rameumptom]

Very true... we must remember that we all have to pay for our sins. As the old saying goes... Do the crime and do the time.

I disagree with this sentiment. WE do not pay for our sins. WE must repent and allow Christ to pay for our sins. Why? Because we CANNOT pay for our own sins.

If I were even able to pay for my own sins, could I resurrect or exalt myself? No. Could I return back to the presence of God? No. Without the atonement, even perfect people would have no choice but to be angels to the devil, as Jacob explained.

We repent, which sometimes includes excommunication (not a payment or punishment), or other methods/devices to assist us in repenting, and to keep the Church safe from the wickedness of mankind.

Marriage is only a small part of the repentance process. It helps get us to the point where we are no longer sinning, but the past sins still must be resolved. We are "saved by grace, after all we can do." And all we can do is repent and trust in Christ's atonement and grace.

[Hemidakota]

The only time a person pays for their own sins are those who are either pedertion or those who calling are sealed. This is where the atonement has no affect at all [see D&C].

[lost87]

while i understand that it is Christ who paid for our sins, I think I understand what Utcowboy was saying....we can't just wake up one day and say, "well, I think im going to repent today" pray once and have it all done with....its a process that at times is VERY painful and difficult....Christ paid the price for our sins, but we are required to take certain steps in our lives to access that atoning sacrifice...and I can tell you from my current state, those steps hurt like hell. Repentance is a beautiful thing and the only way we can return to happiness, but it isn't a walk in the park. Christ made it possible to return to Him and Heavenly Father, but that return journey can be really tough.

In short....thanks utcowboy and palerider for those slew of posts between the two of ya, they've been helpful in my making the decision to get back on track despite the rough road.