Laugh At Me

[sjdean]

I keep praying for a sign, some indication that I should join the church. Not that I doubt God or Christ or anything, but I do doubt man, and 1000 churches apparently in North America alone makes me think, sheesh, they can't all be right...

So the other day I went on site for work and opposite the building was a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Omen? In the afternoon, complete random road, complete random town, I see two missionaries walking in my direction. I say, Ok, if they walk past me, then, that's it, I'll be a Mormon.

They could have walked to the left, but no. They walked past me.

So then the doubts came again. They weren't missionaries. I couldn't see name tags. Ok, I'll ignore that.

The following day, another random town, another random road at another random time, I see two more missionaries and I look for the little black name tags.

Yes, Ok, Im strange and I read too much into things.

Unfortunately then I start watching a video from what appears to be a devout Christian raising issues of race within the Book of Mormon and Joseph Fielding Smiths book, Doctrines of Salvation.

YouTube - Disturbing Doctrines from the Mormon Pre-Existence

Hey, I got some opinion about JFS though.

It could be taken like what the speaker is saying, but another way of looking at it I guess is that even now, white people have it so much better. There is still so much racism and inequality in the world. It's not saying its bad to be a certain skin colour, but the pre-existence perhaps explains all the suffering. I don't know. I know I don't want to get too risque.

Also I suppose you could say that the mainstream christian churches are no better in their attitudes towards say abortion, contraception and homosexuality. For one church to be critical about XYZ and then criticise another church for being against ABC seems quite silly and possibly hypocritical.

Cya

Simon

[pam]

Not sure I understand where you want to go with this.

[sjdean]

I. Don't know.

I guess firstly, am I reading too much into seeing missionaries on the street when Im looking for a sign and I don't normally see them? I mean, I like to think that receiving the Book of Mormon 9 years ago was a huge sign and if that isn't, then my whole thinking and stance on this is completely wrong.

Also love to know the thoughts on that particular video. I found it quite troubling, but I think I do have the explanation as said above. But I don't know if Im barking up the wrong tree. I know some people say that not everything is scripture for example. But I think there's another explanation, I've re-analysed the video and Im picking up a different message behind JFS's words.

Im really not attacking anyone, and Im actually thinking the guy in the video is a little obsessive and actually over-emphasizing the wrong elements of a passage.

Cheers

Simon

[pam]

Personally I don't watch videos or read articles that smack of anti-mormonism.

[sjdean]

I like to read and watch as many things I can to make myself more aware of the nature and stances of certain things. I totally agree though that the guy is completely anti-mormon and as I say, I think he's taken things completely out of context.

As I say, it troubled me, but I think I have the answer, just love to know if what I say holds water.

Cya

Simon

[pam]

May I ask what answer you came up with?

[sjdean]

My answer, that I think the guy took JFS's quotes from the book out of context and almost distorted it to sound bad. That JFS isn't saying to be black is bad and being white is good, but that to be one is perhaps more advantageous than the other.

If I look at it from the point of view that even today there is so much racism, sexism, ageism, there's so much inequality and discrimination it's almost advantageous to be a white middle aged anglo saxon male.

Perhaps it is a comment based upon the social circumstances at the time.

Im not 100% sure, I havent read the book.

[mlbrowninwa]

Ok, I have not watched the video, and most likely will not. However during my investigation of the church before I joined, I did watch a lot of the anti-Mormon things posted on You Tube and other various places. As I did, I just constantly had a feeling that this was just wrong. I received my testimony by removing all of that from my investigating and started reading the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I started going to church after about three weeks of praying to Heavenly Father. Once I started putting faith in Him I realized the little "signs" were all around me for years. It is my opinion that there is only two books that you need to read, the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Put it between you and Heavenly Father and you will receive an answer.

[jadams_4040]

I keep praying for a sign, some indication that I should join the church. Not that I doubt God or Christ or anything, but I do doubt man, and 1000 churches apparently in North America alone makes me think, sheesh, they can't all be right...

So the other day I went on site for work and opposite the building was a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Omen? In the afternoon, complete random road, complete random town, I see two missionaries walking in my direction. I say, Ok, if they walk past me, then, that's it, I'll be a Mormon.

They could have walked to the left, but no. They walked past me.

So then the doubts came again. They weren't missionaries. I couldn't see name tags. Ok, I'll ignore that.

The following day, another random town, another random road at another random time, I see two more missionaries and I look for the little black name tags.

Yes, Ok, Im strange and I read too much into things.

Unfortunately then I start watching a video from what appears to be a devout Christian raising issues of race within the Book of Mormon and Joseph Fielding Smiths book, Doctrines of Salvation.

YouTube - Disturbing Doctrines from the Mormon Pre-Existence

Hey, I got some opinion about JFS though.

It could be taken like what the speaker is saying, but another way of looking at it I guess is that even now, white people have it so much better. There is still so much racism and inequality in the world. It's not saying its bad to be a certain skin colour, but the pre-existence perhaps explains all the suffering. I don't know. I know I don't want to get too risque.

Also I suppose you could say that the mainstream christian churches are no better in their attitudes towards say abortion, contraception and homosexuality. For one church to be critical about XYZ and then criticise another church for being against ABC seems quite silly and possibly hypocritical.

Cya

Simon

I would suggest you attend a sacrement meeting.:)

[bytebear]

Yeah, watching commentary by some guy isn't going to teach you about the church. If the guy in the video were honest about his conclusions about Mormonism, he would have known that there are tons of contradictory ideas about such topics.

The idea simply is that because life isn't fair, certain people are born into situations that are better or worse than other people. Maybe you are born to loving parents. Maybe you are born in a free, stable country, and maybe you are born with white skin, all giving you certain monetary and social advantages. So, you must have been more worthy of such blessings in the pre-existence. That is a common idea, not just among Mormons. And there is some Biblical examples of when God tells a prophet that he has been chosen before he was born to be a great man.

But the problem is, it isn't LDS doctrine. In fact, it is discounted by the current leadership of the church as pure speculation, and even dangerous, because it then makes some people feel justified for treating other people badly, or prejudging them based on their socio-economic status.

So, in short, ignore the conclusions of enemies of the church as they will never give you the truth.

Oh, and don't seek out signs, but if you run into the missionaries, stop and make an appointment with them. Maybe it's not a sign, but an opportunity.

[sjdean]

I am one of those people that would always love to answer the critics, to prove them wrong. I suppose there's a problem then that if I know there's no faith. Im always the person that's asking why is this so, why is the world like that, why do people behave like this, what does it mean to do that etc, so I like to take on board things and try and answer theml

I understand what you're talking about too with regards to the concept of what we were talking about being dangerous.

Something like that can be open to abuse and judgement. Simply answered away, but there are some people who like to twist words to attack don't they?

Ta

Simon

[Maxel]

sjdean-

From the events you depict in your first post, it seems that you've put the Lord to the test by asking Him to provide you with signs that you should join the Church. Now that you're been given these signs, you're still doubting.

May I suggest a better way than seeking after signs? I know you say you received the Book of Mormon 9 years ago- have you read it and humbly sought the Lord's stance on the matter? Mormonism is unique in that it puts all the proof of its claims to truth right before every man and woman on the planet. I promise you that, if you humble yourself and rid yourself of all ungodliness (that you can) and seek after the Lord's truth, you will find it.

Good luck!

[dazed-and-confused]

my friend, i LOVED your post. i saw the signs as you did....so what happened? you need to get hit upside the head with a board, as i did? LOL.....

i have had the blessing of NOT being exposed to, or influenced by, racism......believe it or not.

i am 57 and an old hippie convert, as of 1998.

it is ok to trust yourself...and what you see as truth, whether it's here or elsewhere, HF is there for you. trust in Him, and in yourself.

HF and the Spirit will speak to you, but if you dont trust in yourself, you might just miss it.

wait...where's my 2 by 4?.......lol

[sjdean]

May I suggest a better way than seeking after signs? I know you say you received the Book of Mormon 9 years ago- have you read it and humbly sought the Lord's stance on the matter?

Several times! I've wanted it to be true more than anything, but simply wanting doesn't make it true. At least not for me.

it is ok to trust yourself...and what you see as truth, whether it's here or elsewhere, HF is there for you. trust in Him, and in yourself.

HF and the Spirit will speak to you, but if you dont trust in yourself, you might just miss it.

Trust myself? I think you may have hit the nail on the head with that one. Thanks for the post.

[talisyn]

Problem with signs is they are momentary and easily dismissed (as you well know). You can have all the signs in the world but if you do not have the proper foundation you will never act upon them. I recommend reading through the Book of Mormon again and stop watching anti-Mormon videos. You can be a defender of the faith for the rest of your life but right now what you need to do is actually find that faith

[Danite]

Not many active members of the church are going to take the time to watch folks bad mouthing the church. I'm sure the missionaries would love to talk you to about church. Why don't you ask to meet with the Elders? If you feel that you been lead to the church the place to start is with the missionaries everyone who joins the church must meet with missionaries.

[Generally_Me]

May I ask why the title of this is "laugh at me?" Did you think we would all come over here and say "haha, he doesn't feel what we do"?

It does sound like to need to meet God partway. Instead of saying, "Let the missionaries aproach me" you could have said "When I speak to those missionaries, let them answer the questions I have."

People, even missionaries, have agency and are imperfect, and may not know a prompting of the spirit as a prompting.

[sjdean]

Hello General,

Nah, the laugh at me title was me thinking, hey, what Im saying sounds weird... should I be feeling that these were signs or not?

I read waaay too much into things. It's probably quite unhealthy.

And when people say that Im doubting God by what Im asking, the problem I have, is at this stage, it doesn't matter how much Im drawn to it, how much I really want to do it, there's just a ticking thing in my head, saying "are you sure? are you sure? are you sure?"

To say Im doubting God gives the pre-position that the church is true, and if you believe that the church is true from the outside, no amount of asking whether the church is true is going to yield a different answer.

With apparently 1000 churches in North America alone, it's not that I don't have faith in God and Christ,, that will always be there, it's the faith in man I struggle with.

I can't just go with the pre-position that the church is definitely true. If I join the church and its false then I could still be doubting God. I see myself in much the same position of Joseph Smith. While Im not asking to see Jesus, Im just hoping I'll see a couple of things that will click with me and I can open my heart.

With regards to the videos... Well...

I think I touched on it before, but I really love anti-mormon videos. Because it gives me something to think about and to examine my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

I try to seek opinion and perspective from other people, try to understand the way someone else thinks to see if there's any bit of my behaviour that needs to be adjusted. Then I can come up with a counter argument.

So that particular video, it's given me a different way of looking at things, anti-mormon though it is, and I can state quite assuredly I disagree with the video and these are my thoughts.

I don't think you'll ever get rid of my curiosity.

Cya

Simon

[MrNirom]

Several times! I've wanted it to be true more than anything, but simply wanting doesn't make it true.

You know.. I remember this story..

A man was trapped on his roof in the middle of a storm as the flood waters rose higher and higher around him.

He prayed to God that he would help him. He prayed to God that he would save him.

A few minutes later.. a man in a boat rowed up to him and said.. "Hey.. do you need some help?" "No" shouted the man.. "I am waiting for help from God".

As the water continued to get higher and higher.. now beginning to cover and creep up the roof.. the man prayed more earnestly. "Please God.. help me.. I don't want to die. Please save me".

A few minutes later a helicopter flew by.. and hovered above his roof top. The pilot over a loud speaker called out.. "Do you need any help?" "NO" shouted the man again.. "I am waiting for God to help me".

When the water finally rose above the roof top.. and washed the man into the swift and ragging water.. he drowned.

When he saw God... he said to him.. "I don't understand.. I prayed to you and prayed to you to help from the roof top.. but you refused... and left me to drown."

The Lord said.. "Who do you think impressed upon the man in the boat to row in your direction? After you refused his help... Who do you think caused the pilot to find you in the raging storm.. and offer you help?"

"I can only do so much" the Lord said. "I could not force you to get in the boat.. nor could I force you to enter the helicopter. That is why I said.. I can only help those who are willing to help themselves."

[sjdean]

I see what you're saying MrNirom. Or perhaps I don't. It's confusing. I like to think of things as signs, but I need something more conclusive or unusual than simply passing missionaries in a street. Which is why I keep asking.

Now there's two things. Either they're signs, in which case, sign me up, or they're not signs, which mean God isn't directing me to church and that in the "cold feet" I've got, is God trying to tell me not to go to the LDS church and find another path.

So it works both ways IMHO.

The only way it means "This is God suggesting you should go to the LDS church" is if you have the pre-position that the church is true. Once you have that, there's no other room for movement and any sign leading away is considered not from God, and any sign leading to is considered from God.

But that's if you're one of the people who are sure that God provides/gives signs if you ask. There's many who don't.

But because Im a "neutral" so to speak, it's why I look for something stronger, or perhaps something that makes sense to me. I need to make sure it isn't coincidence. I need to make sure it isn't me just being obsessive. So for example, driving past missionaries in my car, doesn't count.

Seeing them near where I work by a certain date would be massive, because I've never seen them there. It wouldn't be coincidence. Getting the opportunity to speak to one in the street hasnever happened before, so I look for something like that.

Cya

Simon

[MrNirom]

The only way it means "This is God suggesting you should go to the LDS church" is if you have the pre-position that the church is true.

Simon,

To make that kind of a jump would be foolish. Everything the Lord does is little by little... line upon line.. precept upon precept.

Before one can determine the "Church is true".. it is not a determination that you make by yourself.. but are told by God that it is true.. and it is based on solid testimony and logic. The Lord will not tell you "the Church is TRUE" without you doing some work to find out yourself.

When Christ asked the Apostles "Who do they say I am?" You have to wonder why he asked that question... for were not the Apostles with him always? He should have known what people said about him.. but he asked them... and pray tell.. what was their answer?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Interesting. John the Baptist is dead. Jeremais is dead. Elias is dead. Why would these people think he is a dead prophet? But does he question them? NO.. He asks them another question.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Now he is asking them... who do they think he is. Has Jesus up to this point ever said who he was? Did he preach outright.. who he was? NO.. but listen to the answer.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Now see what Christ has to say to Simon Peter.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So.. it was not by the mouth of any man that Simon knew Jesus was the Christ. It was by the power of God.. it was by "revelation" that it was given to him to know this. Jesus did not teach it to him and then he believed. Another man did not convince him of it. But he received the teaching from God... by personal revelation.

And then.. what does Christ say about this personal revelation that Peter received?

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So.. upon revelation.. the rock of the church.. is what the church will built upon. For if one has revelation.. then the gates of hell could not prevail against it.

God gives us "signs" not to prove something to us.. but to guide the way. To say to yourself.. "Well if the missionaires don't make a left turn.. then the church is true." is not sound thinking. That is not the way the Lord works.

If anything.. having the missionaries not turn.. has given you cause to think.. to continue questioning and searching... and that is the way the Lord works.

The point of my story.. was expectation. What do you expect? The man expected that GOD himself should rescue him.. not another man. Not even another man that could fly. But he expected God to do it.

That is not the way God operates. God's ways are not man's ways.

I have been unemployed for some time now, and I have been praying for job. Yesterday.. I get two calls from employers. One was because of a resume I put out there.. another was just a call out of the blue from one person who knew someone who was looking for someone and that person told them about me.. and then they called.

So which one was from God? At this point.. all I can say is that God provided me with 2 different opportunities.. and that is what I am "Thankful" for. God provides "opportunity".

An opportunity to grow and learn on your own. And he is doing that with you now. To grow and learn.. one must search and study. One must question. One must pray. One must contemplate.. but one must also listen. For it is one thing to ask God a question.. it is another thing to wait for an answer... and listen to what is being told to you.

If you build your testimony of truth on a foundation of rock or upon received revelation.. when the winds of Satan blow.. you will not be blown away and find yourself wondering what to do.

Take your time. Ask questions. But this I must warn you about. There is a correct way of learning.

"The teaching of all doctrine", says the Apostle Peter in the Recognitions, "has a certain order, and there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so all in their order; and if these things be delivered in their order, they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason." That is why he rebuked the youthful Clement for wanting to know everything ahead of time.

Move forward Simon.. a day at a time... a question at a time.

I pray you find what you are looking for.