Knowing the Unknowable God

[Honorentheos]

I guess I would just point out the different between "the things of God" and "the things of the world." It is a very difficult concept to grasp at first.

Justice,

I am curious if you would consider there to be a higher value placed on the position of "knowledge" over one of admitted belief? What if, by following all of the threads we worked our way back and found out that at its core we meant the same thing in a broad sense when we were discussing this? (certainly our views are similar in that this subject falls outside of the range of what can be known through scientific means, or more rightly said what can be shown to not be true through scientific means)

But is there a reason we could not say, "I believe" such and such, not just about the knowledge of God but on any topic? I think that if we were speaking on other subjects, we may agree that there is an element of pride that comes in when we can not do so. Why is this different here?

One thing that challenges our discussion is that we also do not share a common base yet. I am not in a position to agree that any of the scriptural references are authentically "of God" and thus provide the foundation for your differentation between being of the world and of God, while you are certainly not in a postion (nor is it where I am asking you to go) where you would agree with my view. Can we find a common point where dialog is possible without getting into a discussion on the reliability of the scriptural referrences? I can't see that discussion being easy to have without a serious blow-by-blow of the points in favor of one view over the other. And I am under the impression that is not the intent of this board.

[Justice]

Very interesting.

I find your post very intelligent and thought provoking. I did not expect that you would actually give what I was saying serious attention. I have been involved in thread discussions for quite some time and I can count the times that someone has shown this kind of interest in actually understanding each other but precious few times.

I, also, typically find that those who strongly disagree at first find later that they are more in agreement than they realized.

You said:

Yet, don't we have to first believe that the pattern came from God to believe that if it is followed it will lead to knowledge of God?

You have to believe in order to come to know, yes. However, you do not have to believe the Book of Mormon is true to begin the process. Belief can come from unbelief.

Step back for just a second and look at what it claims. The claim is that Jesus appeared to ancient America and taught them. The claim is also that the Father and Son, and various angels, have appeared in these last days to usher in the last dispensation of the Gospel. Evidence is that we have the writings of the people in ancient America describing Christ's appearance to them.

Either you hope it is true or you do not. If you hope this is true then that’s all you need in order to begin and come to believe. If you hope it is not true then proceeding forward is impossible.

I’d be glad to discuss anything you wish, and even avoid certain topics for a time. But, me being who I am and knowing what I know, I would be at a serious disadvantage if I could not discuss what I know. So, that will always lead me back to what I know... eventually.

[Honorentheos]

Very interesting.

I find your post very intelligent and thought provoking. I did not expect that you would actually give what I was saying serious attention. I have been involved in thread discussions for quite some time and I can count the times that someone has shown this kind of interest in actually understanding each other but precious few times.

I, also, typically find that those who strongly disagree at first find later that they are more in agreement than they realized.

I think there is value in really looking at someone's point of view and not discounting it immediately because it doesn't match one's own. We are all holding different parts of the elephant, as the saying goes, though most if not all of us think we have figured out what it is. I don't think we can know what an elephant is even if we could grab hold of all the parts. But by assuming anothers view, we get closer in both understanding our own ignorance as well as better defining what in fact may be "true" - at least as far as we are capable.

You have to believe in order to come to know, yes. However, you do not have to believe the Book of Mormon is true to begin the process. Belief can come from unbelief.

Certainly true. I guess my point is that the process that you suggest a person follow may not be from God at all but still work in achieving a certain result using the proscribed method within the bounds of this life. In other words, we have no real way of knowing that the ultimate question of the true nature of God to the point of knowledge is answered when we choose to follow certain directions, provided by another human being. We just know that it caused a certain effect. And I am not challenging this or the goodness of the effect. I take the view of Sterling McMurrin that religions are not true or false, but basically more good or less good, some maybe even bad, but that's about it.

It's an interesting struggle that our inherent ignorance presents in that we have to make certain basic assumptions in life to be functional. I can say I believe certain theories of Einstein or Smolin or even Jung or Kant. But I ultimately end up taking some things on faith as to their value. Otherwise, books really become useless.

But it is best, IMO, to be honest about this. To say, "I believe" based on experience rather than "I know". I guess I just haven't seen anything here that challenges this view.

But I have found what I think may be a point of discussion we can agree on without debating the authenticity of scripture - that being how the things of God should manifest themselves in a person. If a person "knows" God, and we assume the Platonic idea that a person would not choose to do something knowingly that is bad for them (which we can discuss in further detail but is based on the Dialogue of Plato with Meno) could we suggest that actual knowledge of God would change behaviour in a manner that should reflect this type of knowledge? And if so, should we expect that this type of behaviour would more closely reflect the nature of God than that of a person (trying to build on your obedience pathway idea)?

I would submit this thread on this forum for discussion, then. Read it and let me know what your thoughts are first.

http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/25207-someone-went-bishop-about-me-please-help.html

Thanks,

(p.s. - I am still interested about the question of placing a higher value on "knowing" rather than "believing".)

[Justice]

But I have found what I think may be a point of discussion we can agree on without debating the authenticity of scripture - that being how the things of God should manifest themselves in a person.

This is the thing though... if scripture is a lie, and there is no life after death, and no absolute law, and no God, then what is the real harm in sin or doing evil to another person? Law has no teeth if there is no punishment.

If a person "knows" God, and we assume the Platonic idea that a person would not choose to do something knowingly that is bad for them (which we can discuss in further detail but is based on the Dialogue of Plato with Meno) could we suggest that actual knowledge of God would change behaviour in a manner that should reflect this type of knowledge? And if so, should we expect that this type of behaviour would more closely reflect the nature of God than that of a person (trying to build on your obedience pathway idea)?

There is no doubt that this is true.

I would submit this thread on this forum for discussion, then. Read it and let me know what your thoughts are first.

I'm not sure what you want to know from me about this, more than what has been said.

I'll offer that people react differently. Some people can read the word of God and be changed by it. Others can read it and be changed only temporary. The great mystery to me, however, is there are those who can read it and not be affected at all by it. I don't have any answers for this. I know that God gives us our moral agency.

Regardless of what we know and understand, if God's word doesn't penetrate our hearts we will not be changed by it. How much is born-in, acquired by experience, or actually chosen of our own free will I don't know. I think it may be all 3, although the percentages are different for different people.

(p.s. - I am still interested about the question of placing a higher value on "knowing" rather than "believing".)

Yes, the Book of Mormon actually has some very good scriptures that will explain my view (you don't have to believe they're true, just read them to know what I believe).

Alma 32:

16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

...

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Notice the acronymn "seed?"

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the brewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Justice

[martybess]

3 NE 11:

"3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came."

It will be like the above verse. Those who have lived true to hear and thus come to know God will have that given them. Our eyes, ears and understanding will be opened.

Peace :)

[Snow]

I think Snow started this thread because of the discussion that started in the thread "Is LDS Faith Monotheistic?".

We were discussing the "Great Mystery" of the Trinity.

...Did I get this right, Snow?

That's right.

Certainly we should not expect to know everything or understand everything about God while in this life... but I do not buy the common mainstream Christian notion - create a mysterious (and non-biblical) view of God that is confusing and unintelligible - and then explain it by saying God is a mystery and cannot be understood. What is a mystery is the definition people place on God.

[Mason]

... but I do not buy the common mainstream Christian notion - create a mysterious (and non-biblical) view of God that is confusing and unintelligible - and then explain it by saying God is a mystery and cannot be understood. What is a mystery is the definition people place on God.

God is Love, and Peace and Truth and Light.

What is confusing about that?

I suppose that for some, placing God into an anthropomorphic box is comforting, but I fail to understand how that makes life better.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think its really about "how" we see God. I think that lots of people can have very rewarding relationships with God even with the varying understands of what and who He is.

For me, I feel that finding out the truth about God including his attributes is crucial to my belief system. It certianly helps in the understanding of things.

[Traveler]

God is Love, and Peace and Truth and Light.

What is confusing about that?

I suppose that for some, placing God into an anthropomorphic box is comforting, but I fail to understand how that makes life better.

So are Buddha, Vishnu and Zoroaster. I have met many followers of Buddha, Vishnu and Zoroaster that are more Christian the many Christians I have met. If you have to tell someone what you believe in; then there is something very wrong between what you think you believe and what you do (who you really are).

I agree with Snow. You cannot follow after (or worship) something you do not understand.

The Traveler

[Honorentheos]

Justice,

First, thank you for the long post. It was interesting.

I would like to compare something that was said in the Alma scripture you provided with something I said earlier -

Alma 32:33-34

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.(my emphasis)

My earlier statement -

"Certainly true. I guess my point is that the process that you suggest a person follow may not be from God at all but still work in achieving a certain result using the proscribed method within the bounds of this life. In other words, we have no real way of knowing that the ultimate question of the true nature of God to the point of knowledge is answered when we choose to follow certain directions, provided by another human being. We just know that it caused a certain effect. And I am not challenging this or the goodness of the effect. I take the view of Sterling McMurrin that religions are not true or false, but basically more good or less good, some maybe even bad, but that's about it."

So I think we can agree that by experimenting on something we can determine whether or not we get a desired effect or if something else happens. And as your scriptural reference indicated, the process of the "seed" growing is something that takes time to bear fruit.

And it's the fruit that matters.

The reason I linked to the other thread was because, when I read it I was bothered by how quickly so many other posters focused in on the apparent past life of the person who was obviously looking for help. And not really stopping on the road to Jericho, more interested in other things. My past has left more than a few scriptures rattling around in my head, and though I am not one for believing in the veracity of scripture as the literal words of God, I think they have power to help and heal as one is inclined, just as poetry can do so or good literature. I thought the scriptures that came to my mind as I read the thread would help, and if so I think good, if not, I hope my heart was in the right place.

When I came back to this thread, your last post before mine struck a chord with why it bothered me - it seems very possible that you may consider this the sort of thing that God would be concerned about.

I have to say, I hope that isn't so and hope this clarifies why I brought it up so we can discuss this more.

[Justice]

Interesting.

In my view, God does judge us by what we have done. But, also, He is no respector of persons.

So, even though He judges us by what we have done, we are all equal in His eyes.

How can this be?

Judging and "final judgment" are different. He judges us moment by moment by the things we do. If a person is obedient in small things He gives them more things. If a person is not obedient in small things they aren't given more. This is available to all. All have the opportunity to repent for the things they have done. If they do they will be forgiven, if they don't they cannot be.

As for us, He has commanded us to forgive all men. We don't know but a person will repent and return to Him. We should welcome all, and treat all like our brothers as far as possible.

The principle is sound because obedience is based on a commandment, and is focused on a specific law. You can come to know a thing is true by following His prescribed method for that thing. I have already posted those scriptures, but it is reasonable and logical.

For instance, there is a certain method He has prescribed for learning if the Book of Mormon is true. It doesn't matter if you believe He gave the method, it is still true. If you follow it's course, He promised all humble and honest seekers of truth will come to know... if they do what He says.

[Moksha]

Wonder if I could send up a few weather balloon observations:

1. Believing is lesser than knowing because of dogma.

2. We have a dogma of not calling our dogma, dogma, because those other guys with only belief use the word dogma.

3. Perfect knowledge is attainable through dogma if you call the dogma something else.

4. Belief just doesn't cut it in the realm of knowers.

(Hope this does not close the thread )

[BenRaines]

Sure looks like people like throwing the dog ma around. Sheeesh.

Ben Raines

[Gatorman]

*gets in his Carma and runs over the Dogma.

[Guest]

Need upgrade... need laugh button...

[lattelady]

I don't put my faith blindly in vague ideas of a hardley knoweable God. There is a great deal that He has revealed about Himself in the written Word of God. What I know of Him, I have learned through His Word, and also through learning about the life of Christ as He walked on the earth--as Jesus is God, made flesh, Emmanuel. He made it possible for us to know the Father as we begin to know the Son. The more we know Christ, the more we will know God. The discussion we were having on a previous thread dealt more with the doctrine of the Trinity (God, in three persons). I understand the doctrine as far as my human mind can comprehend it. I can't dumb it down--it is impossible to understand something supernatural--that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are Three persons, yet ONE GOD. Yet I believe it. It is beyond my understanding. It is mysterious. This part of God is mysterious. Isaiah 55:8and 9 say, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, " declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Scripture teaches that Gods thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways. People who claim to have Him figured out are displaying pride and arrogance. I believe that what we know of God are the things He has revealed to us. We are blessed to have Him reveal Himself to us. But He has not revealed everything.

[Justice]

Yes, but those scriptures are talking about His ways, not His character and attributes.

I believe God made male and female, and when married they can procreate, to teach us of Him. I think this is the greatest evidence of who He is. He even tried to tell us, but many aren't listening.

Genesis 1:

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This makes no sense if the Trinity is truth.

[lattelady]

So, the married person with children is able to see God more clearly than the unmarried one? Am I understanding you correctly? I believe that the miracle of having a baby proves to me that there is a God whose creative design and power is INCREDIBLE. But there is so much more to know about God than that. I believe that the union of marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church and that alone is such an amazingly cool thought and study--the parallels are awesome, convicting, incredible. But there is more to God than that. I believe that the greatest evidence of who He is is His Son Jesus.

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." This verse is talking about God the One and Only (God the Son, Jesus)--who is at the Father's side--HE has made God the Father known, because He walked on this earth. He taught us who the Father is. He is God. Look at Jesus, and you will learn of God, because He IS God, come down to earth in the FLESH.

[Justice]

I meant that God made man in His image so we could know something about Him. It's not that someone married with kids sees God more clearly, it's that we can look at how He made us and know something about Him.

I firmly believe God has a wife and children. He has shown us something of that by how He made us in His image.

How could He truly be happy without a wife and children?

I believe that's the great mystery.

If He does not have a wife, why did He make man, male and female, in His image? It's beautifully plain and simple. If He does not have a wife, and He is the only gender, male, where did He get the idea to make a female and that man couldn't be happy without a wife?

It's rather simple.

Women are just as significant as men in the eternities. They have different roles, but co-equal.

Sound familiar?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Justice

[Moksha]

So, the married person with children is able to see God more clearly than the unmarried one?

There is power to be gained through sustained exposure to wedding bells and diaper smells.

[Dove]

Snow,

What an interesting topic.....

I acknowledge the scriptures that say that through obedience to God's will we will come to know Him

Frankly, I believe we know a lot about Him; but, to know Him, really know Him, is a whole different topic....

I believe obedience may open the windows of heaven and allow the Spirit to bear witness of Him and things about Him....

I believe we really don't know Him very much....that all the scriptures combined don't gives us the depth/width/length of who He is....

Sort of like how we only use 3% of the capacity our brain has (anyone ever heard of this?)....the vast remainder of our brains remain untapped and unused, why?

Then again, there is so much to see of His workings in this world alone, so many witnesses...

While I have read the Book of Mormon time and again, and have felt God's workings in my life strongly......I have really come to know what little I know of God through life's experiences, and a little through the Spirit. What I mean by "a little through the Spirit" is that never has God revealed the whole picture to me yet on even my own life.....My experience has been that He mainly leaves me to wade through it. The Spirit mainly provides comfort and the strength to endure rather than providing full answers....."faith"......

The times of my life I have striven to be strictly obedient, have been the times life has been the most difficult for me, by quite a bit....

I believe this is to learn humility, that I don't have the whole picture, while He does; to learn submission, to submit myself to His will; to learn perhaps to rely solely on Him, amongst other things I may not even be aware of,

It's difficult to remain obedient when being "obedienct" produces more heartache in my life. Perhaps these hard experiences are necessary for me to learn to a perspective/compassion/love that is more like HIs.....There are times when I see it from a different perspective and am so grateful that I have experienced those "hard" things.....