Amsterdam teaches Bill O'Reilly a thing or two.

[Elphaba]

Bill O'Reilly adamantly stated that Amsterdam is a cesspool full of corruption, and other equally unflattering comments.

Of course, Amsterdam's citizens were incensed at O'Reilly's caricature, and responded with the following two videos:

Elphaba

[prisonchaplain]

It's easy to cook up a few facts to make a case one way or the other. And yes, Oreilly does it too. So, this "pot shot" (pun intended) is fair.

However, if our liberal friends are right, that corporations cannot be trusted, and government is a more objective force for good, here's what the Drug Enforcement Agency has to say: The DEA Position On Marijuana

[bytebear]

I don't think Amsterdam is a cesspool of corruption, but I certainly think it would shock people what isn't shown in the rebuttal video. I visited Amsetdam several years ago, and I saw a Hooters type restaurant where the bar maids would strip down the male patrons to full nudity as they danced on the tables. This was not in the red light district and it was an open sidewalk restaurant so I saw this while just walking down the street.

Now, when you go to the red light district, things are considerably more sexual, with pornography that includes bestiality. It was quite an eye opener. Just because you have a society that largely ignores the vices it allows, doesn't mean we should accept such vices as the reason for their happiness or low crime rates.

[prisonchaplain]

If donuts were declared a health food, and exercise labeled a risky endulgence, I'd be happier too. :-)

[hordak]

I don't think Amsterdam is a cesspool of corruption, but I certainly think it would shock people what isn't shown in the rebuttal video. I visited Amsetdam several years ago, and I saw a Hooters type restaurant where the bar maids would strip down the male patrons to full nudity as they danced on the tables. This was not in the red light district and it was an open sidewalk restaurant so I saw this while just walking down the street.

Now, when you go to the red light district, things are considerably more sexual, with pornography that includes bestiality. It was quite an eye opener. Just because you have a society that largely ignores the vices it allows, doesn't mean we should accept such vices as the reason for their happiness or low crime rates.

They did it wrong, Here in the USA its the women on that table that strips.

Though I wold agree with your premise that what works for one culture doen't mean it is right for another. And that one cultures freedoms/vice isn't necessarily the cause of their happiness.

But the cesspool comment was the typical emotional, non fact driven response we hear to often from the "talking heads" on both sides of the aisle.

[bytor2112]

Well....that convinces me.....O'Reilly is obviously an idiot, Fox is a shill for them ignert conservatives and Amsterdam is doubtless light years ahead of the good ole USA. Utopia.....maybe it will attract more disaffected US libs and leave the US cesspool to closed minded, uneducated, racist, bigotted, homophobic, unenlightened, redneck, gun totin, bible thumpin, war mongering right wingers.

Edited September 5, 2009 by bytor2112

[Elphaba]

It's easy to cook up a few facts to make a case one way or the other

That is why I trust the citizens of Amsterdam to know what they're talking about, rather than the far right pundits who exploit the city to further their own agenda.

We can assume we know you, PC, inside and out, but we don't. It would take spending a great deal of time with you, and listening to you, watching you, and you opening up and showing us the shadow within.

Most importantly, you'd have to want to be known, for without that, the whole effort would fail.

The same is true for a city. Unless you have lived there, you cannot discover its nuances, its heart, its virtues and its vices. That's why it's ridiculous for anyone, regardless of who, to believe s/he "knows" enough about a city to criticize it.

. And yes, Oreilly does it too.

They all do it, both on the left and the right. I don't know one conservative who admits the benefits of another country's health care systems, and I do not know one liberal who admits its flaws. I mean that literally.

So, this "pot shot" (pun intended) is fair.

Didn't your mother ever tell you nothing in life is fair?

Seriously, though, how is it "fair" for O'Reilly to demonize a city he knows nothing about? Is his mistake fair because other pundits have criticized him? Or do you mean something else?

"That's not fair," seems so juvenile to me. It makes me want to tell them all to grow up and quit trying to man each other up.

Amsterdam is not the only city that bristles at all of the criticisms the far right keeps insisting are true. The following are some links to articles about this:

Britain's National Health Service and the "Appreciation of Life"

Britain Defends its national health care system

UK health system hits back at US critics

'Sick Around the World': Contrasting U.S. Health Care with 5 Other Capitalist Countries

However, if our liberal friends are right, that corporations cannot be trusted,

I think we have plenty of evidence that numerous poweful corporations cannot be trusted. I do believe liberals acknowledge it, where conservatives don't. But, for some reason, liberals dance around the obvious, for fear of having to stare down the big bad scary conservatives. Bleh.

I also think there are a vast number of major corporations that can be trusted.

and government is a more objective force for good,

I've never said the government is more objective, and I don't personally know anyone who would do so either. Anyone who truly believed this would be very naive.

I do believe our government representatives are trying very hard to be a force for good, which is exactly what they should be doing. They're not potted plants--they're activists who are commmitted to representing their constituencies the best way they know how. Of course he will be criticized by his opponents, and they may even be right. But I do believe their motivation is for the good, as they understand it. That is how it should be.

here's what the Drug Enforcement Agency has to say: The DEA Position On Marijuana

I'm not sure what your point is, given the subject is Amsterdam, which, comparably, has a much lower percentage of people who have used marijuana.

It is a thought-provoking article nevertheless. Andrew Sullivan often addresses the issue of legalizing pot. I think the subject could have its own thread, if people were interested.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Well....that convinces me.....O'Reilly is obviously an idiot, Fox is a shill for them ignert conservatives and Amsterdam is doubtless light years ahead of the good ole USA. Utopia.....maybe it will attract more disaffected US libs and leave the US cesspool to closed minded, uneducated, racist, bigotted, homophobic, unenlightened, redneck, gun totin, bible thumpin, war mongering right wingers.

Finally!

Elph

[prisonchaplain]

Seriously, though, how is it "fair" for O'Reilly to demonize a city he knows nothing about? Is his mistake fair because other pundits have criticized him? Or do you mean something else?

"That's not fair," seems so juvenile to me. It makes me want to tell them all to grow up and quit trying to man each other up.

You misunderstood me. I meant that the youtube response was a fair rebuttal. It doesn't convince me that Amsterdam's solution is all that, but it matches the Oreilly piece.

I've never said the government is more objective, and I don't personally know anyone who would do so either. Anyone who truly believed this would be very naive.

I do believe our government representatives are trying very hard to be a force for good, which is exactly what they should be doing. They're not potted plants--they're activists who are commmitted to representing their constituencies the best way they know how. Of course he will be criticized by his opponents, and they may even be right. But I do believe their motivation is for the good, as they understand it. That is how it should be.

I'm not sure what your point is, given the subject is Amsterdam, which, comparably, has a much lower percentage of people who have used marijuana.

It is a thought-provoking article nevertheless. Andrew Sullivan often addresses the issue of legalizing pot. I think the subject could have its own thread, if people were interested.

Elphaba

To me the point goes beyond Amsterdam to the question of legalizing pot. The DEA is neither Democrat or Republican, right or left. So, it's perspective is probably worth considering. I was also being ever so slightly clever in invoking a government source to support a hardline drug policy.

[Elphaba]

You misunderstood me. I meant that the youtube response was a fair rebuttal. It doesn't convince me that Amsterdam's solution is all that, but it matches the Oreilly piece.

Do you have any idea how much angst I went through writing all of that!

Sorry I misundersood. My bad.

To me the point goes beyond Amsterdam to the question of legalizing pot. The DEA is neither Democrat or Republican, right or left. So, it's perspective is probably worth considering. I was also being ever so slightly clever in invoking a government source to support a hardline drug policy.

Once, again, sorry I misunderstood.

I agree with you about the DEA--it gives the report clout because as you say, it is neither right nor left. I think that's why I thought it was interesting.

I admit I only skimmed through it, but what I saw was intriguing. I have been, and for the moment, still am in favor of legalizing pot (I'm so old--no one calls it that anymore). But I realize it isn't that simple.

My first husband smoked pot 24 hours a day, and he was stupid and lazy, and could not hold down a job. I remember when I got pregnant I brought home the list of foods my doctor gave me to eat, and when my husband read it, he had a fit. "We can't afford all of this!"

He spent all of our money on pot, and threw a fit because I needed to buy milk.

So, I have seen its negative effects. But I have also known quite a few people who used it recreationally, and had no problem with it. I never liked it because it made me paranoid.

Ahhh, the good ol' days.

Elph

[jadams_4040]

I don't think Amsterdam is a cesspool of corruption, but I certainly think it would shock people what isn't shown in the rebuttal video. I visited Amsetdam several years ago, and I saw a Hooters type restaurant where the bar maids would strip down the male patrons to full nudity as they danced on the tables. This was not in the red light district and it was an open sidewalk restaurant so I saw this while just walking down the street.

Now, when you go to the red light district, things are considerably more sexual, with pornography that includes bestiality. It was quite an eye opener. Just because you have a society that largely ignores the vices it allows, doesn't mean we should accept such vices as the reason for their happiness or low crime rates.

well billo outta know; im sure he spends a lot of time there.

[Maxel]

I haven't watched the videos (can't right now), but the idea of the citizens of a country accused of being corrupt defending their country seems to be a disingenuous setup.

C.S. Lewis once said that the bad man thinks he is good and the good man knows he is bad. That is, the closer one is to being 'good', the more (s)he realizes the flaws in his/her character. The closer one is to being 'bad', the less one understands just how bad (s)he is.

So, if Amsterdam is corrupt its people may very well be corrupt. Would they understand and know of their own corruptness?

That being said, I have no idea what the videos contain so I cannot pass judgment on them. I did think the setup interesting, though- I'll be on later when I can watch them.

[bytor2112]

well billo outta know; im sure he spends a lot of time there.

So...your saying that Amsterdam is a cesspool and you agree with O'Reilly??? Or are you suggesting that since O'Reilly is a conservative...(politically independent and maybe even moderate actually) that he probably frequents where Bytebear is describing? Since you are so sure he spends time there....perhaps you could produce some evidence to substantiate your typical unsupported smear.

[Elphaba]

I haven't watched the videos (can't right now), but the idea of the citizens of a country accused of being corrupt defending their country seems to be a disingenuous setup.

Or perhaps the people of Amsterdam are responding to the disingenuous distortions blithely flung out by O’Reilly and Crowley.

For example: Crowley said:

In the Netherlands is a cesspool of corruption, crime. Everything’s out of control . . . It’s anarchy.

She is wrong.

Regarding the corruption and out-of-control crime:

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals

Netherlands to close prisons for lack of criminals

Published: 19 May 2009 16:31 | Changed: 20 May 2009 15:35

By our news desk

The Dutch justice ministry has announced it will close eight prisons and cut 1,200 jobs in the prison system. A decline in crime has left many cells empty.

During the 1990s the Netherlands faced a shortage of prison cells, but a decline in crime has since led to overcapacity in the prison system. The country now has capacity for 14,000 prisoners but only 12,000 detainees.

Deputy justice minister Nebahat Albayrak announced on Tuesday that eight prisons will be closed, resulting in the loss of 1,200 jobs. Natural redundancy and other measures should prevent any forced lay-offs, the minister said.

The overcapacity is a result of the declining crime rate, which the ministry's research department expects to continue for some time.

Regarding the Netherlands corrupt drug use:

The O'Reilly Factor has no place in Dutch culture

. . . . And no matter which statistics you use (O'Reilly claimed on 3 August that the Netherlands “does statistics differently” than the United States), the Netherlands has less drug use, drug-related crime and less crime in general among its population than the United States.

The Centre for Drugs Research, a former institute affiliated with the University of Amsterdam, reported that even in Amsterdam only 38.1 percent of the population had tried marijuana in their lifetimes as of 2001.

In 2005, the United States average was 40.3 percent compared to 22.6 percent of the entire Dutch population. Amsterdam is certainly higher than the national average, but hardly a disaster.

Regarding the Netherlands corrupt healthcare:

Remember, this is the same country (Amsterdam) that ranked first in a child well-being survey of 21 industrialised countries conducted by Unicef in 2007.

The survey scored countries across a number of categories, including relative poverty, educational and health standards, sexual behaviour and the children's relationship with friends and parents.

The United States placed at number 20. Out of 21.

C.S. Lewis once said that the bad man thinks he is good and the good man knows he is bad. That is, the closer one is to being 'good', the more (s)he realizes the flaws in his/her character. The closer one is to being 'bad', the less one understands just how bad (s)he is.

In this situation, Bill O’Reilly comes to mind.

So, if Amsterdam is corrupt its people may very well be corrupt. Would they understand and know of their own corruptness?

This is a straw man. It would be impossible for all of the people in Amsterdam to be corrupt.

That being said, I have no idea what the videos contain so I cannot pass judgment on them. I did think the setup interesting, though- I'll be on later when I can watch them.

Why would you assume a disingenuous setup, which you implied above, if you hadn’t even watched the video yet?

Actually, there are now close to 1000 videos on Youtube, defending Amsterdam from the likes of O’Reilly’s and Crowley’s odious comments. Additionally, the original video I linked to has, at my last look, over 2000 responses.

Elphaba

Later edit: I don't mean to suggest there is absolutely no corruption in the country, as I believe there is. I just don't believe it's on the scale that O'Rielly and Crowley said it is, and I certainly don't believe the average person in Amsterdam is corrupt. E.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Elphaba

[Moksha]

I think it is a good thing Bill O'Reilly broadcasts from God's Wrath, Georgia, as opposed to such places as New York and Los Angeles.

BTW, my favorite Bill O'Reilly rants are the ones done by Steven Colbert.

(don't worry, not a real cigarette)

[Elphaba]

I think it is a good thing Bill O'Reilly broadcasts from God's Wrath, Georgia, as opposed to such places as New York and Los Angeles.

BTW, my favorite Bill O'Reilly rants are the ones done by Steven Colbert.

(don't worry, not a real cigarette)

Why does this remind me of a South Park episode?

I guess I'm on my own on that one, eh?

Elph

[dazed-and-confused]

LOL....you incredible woman......see?..THIS is what i love and have missed about you, elph. what a great post, thank you.

whoa, ok...so i wrote down all this stuff about how i first got high as a H.S. sophomore in '68, and all kinds of stuff, and re-read it and thought......SO WHAT!...WHO CARES?

weed allowed me to feel things that i had to shut down as a matter of self-preservation...but feel them in a way that, for me, was safe and beneficial, as well as feeling things about myself that re-inforced the awareness that there are many people in the world who just dont have a clue...about the facets of life and spirit...about true human potential that goes WAY beyond being "blessed" with a good job so you can buy lots of "stuff".

life goes WAY past "the world".

elph, sounds like your husband had other "issues" than weed...as did i.....so is it the adverse effects of the weed?..or a reflection of other issues going on within someones mind/brain/conciousness/whatever.

THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT OF DRUG USAGE!!!!!

fact is, for all the benefits i experienced, there were consequences.

i do believe that there is too much political history about weed which started in the 30's (?) or before...give or take.....history channel has good stuff about illegal drugs and how they got that way.

thing is...people take what they hear, and have heard for a while, and treat it as truth when, in fact, it might just be a bunch of political BS based on someones own selfinterest.

weed allowed me to see that TRUTH, real, ultimate, universal, absolute bottom line, TRUTH, is something that needs to be found for one-self, as an experience, not a mental exercise...and DEFINATELY not because someone else who is listened to (TV people, politicians, ANYONE)

says so.

it is about a one-on-one with God...if that is your reference for the ULTIMATE.....or whatever your ULTIMATE may be......clearly something greater than yourself..greater to the point that you feel like a speck in the grand scheme of things......lol..if, in fact, you even see things in some sort of grand scheme.

all others are just guides that may be of help along the way.....ALL others.....imo..it comes down to me (you) and God...period.

[bytebear]

That is why I trust the citizens of Amsterdam to know what they're talking about, rather than the far right pundits who exploit the city to further their own agenda.

We can assume we know you, PC, inside and out, but we don't. It would take spending a great deal of time with you, and listening to you, watching you, and you opening up and showing us the shadow within.

Most importantly, you'd have to want to be known, for without that, the whole effort would fail.

The same is true for a city. Unless you have lived there, you cannot discover its nuances, its heart, its virtues and its vices. That's why it's ridiculous for anyone, regardless of who, to believe s/he "knows" enough about a city to criticize it.

They all do it, both on the left and the right. I don't know one conservative who admits the benefits of another country's health care systems, and I do not know one liberal who admits its flaws. I mean that literally.

Didn't your mother ever tell you nothing in life is fair?

Seriously, though, how is it "fair" for O'Reilly to demonize a city he knows nothing about? Is his mistake fair because other pundits have criticized him? Or do you mean something else?

"That's not fair," seems so juvenile to me. It makes me want to tell them all to grow up and quit trying to man each other up.

Amsterdam is not the only city that bristles at all of the criticisms the far right keeps insisting are true. The following are some links to articles about this:

Britain's National Health Service and the "Appreciation of Life"

Britain Defends its national health care system

UK health system hits back at US critics

'Sick Around the World': Contrasting U.S. Health Care with 5 Other Capitalist Countries

I think we have plenty of evidence that numerous poweful corporations cannot be trusted. I do believe liberals acknowledge it, where conservatives don't. But, for some reason, liberals dance around the obvious, for fear of having to stare down the big bad scary conservatives. Bleh.

I also think there are a vast number of major corporations that can be trusted.

I've never said the government is more objective, and I don't personally know anyone who would do so either. Anyone who truly believed this would be very naive.

I do believe our government representatives are trying very hard to be a force for good, which is exactly what they should be doing. They're not potted plants--they're activists who are commmitted to representing their constituencies the best way they know how. Of course he will be criticized by his opponents, and they may even be right. But I do believe their motivation is for the good, as they understand it. That is how it should be.

I'm not sure what your point is, given the subject is Amsterdam, which, comparably, has a much lower percentage of people who have used marijuana.

It is a thought-provoking article nevertheless. Andrew Sullivan often addresses the issue of legalizing pot. I think the subject could have its own thread, if people were interested.

Elphaba

These comments really struck me. The liberal argument is generally that government does things better than the private sector. And if this isn't your point, then I apologize in advance. However, large corporations have done far more good than evil. And very large governments have generally done far more evil than good. The United States and other capitalistic organizations are the exception, but only because they give the private sector room to grow. Shall I compare the most evil company that ever existed? US Steel perhaps? Maybe Microsoft? Who would you say? And compare that to the most evil governments in the world. Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union? The Roman Empire? North Korea. Yeah, corporations are sooooo evil.

Oh, and the medical luxuries that other countries are enjoying are because the US developed them. Change our system to theirs, and we will be as stagnant in innovation as they are. Amsterdam has done very little in the past 100 years to better the life of man. They are content at being content.

By the way, am I the only one here who has actually been to Amsterdam?

Edited September 6, 2009 by bytebear

[boyando]

I am reminded of what Gorge Carlin use to say about Marijuana. You have to watch yourself, when your in California. If you get caught with pot, they will give you a ticket.

Heck with Amsterdam, Nevada has legalized prostitution and California has got almost legal pot. And lets face it, there is no crime in those states.

[bytebear]

My nephew just got arrested for stealing GPS systems from cars and trying to sell them on craigslist. He was stealing them to get extra money because his parents cut off his allowance when they found out he was only using the money to buy pot. He is 17, and may be tried as an adult. I used to think marijuana was no big deal until I realized this smart, good student, nice kid felt it so important to steal, and to jeopardize his entire future, risk jail time, all just to get high.

[lilered]

The Centre for Drugs Research, a former institute affiliated with the University of Amsterdam, reported that even in Amsterdam only 38.1 percent of the population had tried marijuana in their lifetimes as of 2001.

In 2005, the United States average was 40.3 percent compared to 22.6 percent of the entire Dutch population. Amsterdam is certainly higher than the national average, but hardly a disaster.

Am I the only one that has difficulty with these quoted figures? It is hard for me to believe that 40% of the US population has tried pot in their lifetime. Am I being naive?

Just a comment about Amsterdam, admittedly I haven't been there for the last 10 years, but before that I was there several times. I walked all over Amsterdam in the evenings and never had a problem. Something I wouldn't do in many US Cities. While true they had a Red Light District, they contained all sinful activities to within this District. This policy made the entire rest of the City very very safe. It was always my understanding they did this because they believed that they would have better control over vices that were going to take place anyway and by containment, they could manage them better. As of the last time I was there, they seemed to be very succesful. The fact that they are able to close several prisons and make layoffs because of decreased crime, speaks volumes to me, if true. Here in the U.S., we can't seem to build them fast enough.

Edited September 7, 2009 by lilered

[Elphaba]

Am I the only one that has difficulty with these quoted figures? It is hard for me to believe that 40% of the US population has tried pot in their lifetime. Am I being naive?

Hi lil,

I just went online to find the numbers, as I am no expert. According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, marijuana is the Nation's most commonly used illicit drug. More than 94 million Americans (40 percent) age 12 and older have tried marijuana at least once, according to the 2003 National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smoke jumping in America

American Demographics, June 1, 2003

According to an October 2002 Time/CNN poll, nearly half of Americans (47 percent) have smoked pot at least once. Gallup polls indicate that a greater share of people have sampled the drug over the last 30 years or so, but not to the level reflected in the Time/CNN survey. According to Gallup data gathered in 1999, 34 percent of Americans admitted trying marijuana, up from 11 percent in 1972 and 4 percent in 1969.

[Elphaba]

I am reminded of what Gorge Carlin use to say about Marijuana. You have to watch yourself, when your in California. If you get caught with pot, they will give you a ticket.

Love George Carlin.

I think the days of merely getting a ticket for possession of marijuana are long gone. The attached information sheet, called Marijuana possession is a misdemeanor, provides information about legal penalties for the different ways people use pot--it could be just possession, the sale and distribution to minors, etc. I didn't realize there were so many different examples of breaking the law with marijuana.

(Did you even want to know all of that stuff? )

Heck with Amsterdam, Nevada has legalized prostitution and California has got almost legal pot. And lets face it, there is no crime in those states.

This is a logical fallacy:

1. Nevada and California have legalized prostitution.

2. Nevada and California have very high crime rates.

3. Amsterdam has legailized prostitution.

4. Therefore, Amsterdam must have a very high crime rate.

Number 4 is incorrect. I already wrote about this in a post above, but here's another chart demonstrating Amsterdam's significantly low crime rate:

Drug Policy and Crime Statistics

Murder rate as a percentage of population (in 1996):

1.8 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;

8.22 in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Bureau of Statistics; White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Incarceration rate as a percentage of population (1997):

73 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;

645 per 100,000 in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)

Crime-related deaths as a percentage of population:

1.2 per 100,000 in the Netherlands (1994);

8.2 per 100,000 in the U.S. (1995).

(Sources: World Health Organization; Uniform Crime Reports, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation)

Per capita spending on drug-related law enforcement:

$27 per capita in the Netherlands;

$81 per capita in the U.S.

(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)

I have recently heard many people who live in Amsterdam, (most of them on Youtube) mention how low the crime rate is. They also say, like lilred did, that they can walk around the city and never feel frightened or threatened. That is not be true of many American cities.

I actually wish I could visit there. It looks breathtaking.

[boyando]

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of O'Reilly. He injects way to much of his own thoughts into his telling of the news. This is one example.

Another is when he based his views of global warming on how the ice skating rink in one of the New York parks didn't freeze every year, like it did when he was a kid. Now there is science.

I could come up with a couple more examples, if I watched the big O.

My lack of desire to defend O'Reilly, doesn't mean that I think Amsterdam has got it right.

All the statistics show that we have a problem here and in Amsterdam, they have less of a problem. I wonder (and this is a question, more than a statement) how much of a inner city problem, the Dutch have?

Were we grow up can hardly be considered an inner city, but it was what you might call the wrong side of the tracts. I remember walking through the gauntlet (a small ally that we nick named the gauntlet) on the way too our Junior High. On the one side of the gauntlet you had kids our age handing out pills, for free. Sure only your first ones were free.

Even though we were young, I don't remember any one saying anything too the Principal, and the pushers were there, day after day. The California that I remember growing up in (and here is my O'Reilly moment) was like prohibition in the 1920's. Drugs every were you looked, but no one seemed to care.

My point is this; it doesn't matter how many laws you make, if the society in which those laws have an effect, does not support those laws. I.E., when booze was illegal you could find it every were, including under the sink of my wife's, grandfather's house, who was a cop at the time.

[Palerider]

I wonder if Amsterdam could teach CNN a thing or two...:eek: