Katrina

[wolfjingles]

sorry i hit the rong button this was not supposed to send

[Ray]

Let’s put it this way. If more of those people had maintained a closer relationship with family members, or with other members of a Church, or with any other organization where people get together to help each other and be helped by others, they would have had access to people who could have helped them and I think would have helped them if they were not able to take care of all of their needs all by themselves. And whether you agree with me or not, I think people who separate themselves from other people are asking for trouble, as well as not putting themselves in a position where they can help other people.

Or if that’s not specific enough for you, think about this. Not a single member of the Church in that area who listened to the leaders of the Church lost their life or suffered, because they all got together and helped each other. Those who couldn’t leave the area were clustered in chapel buildings and either had their own supplies or had supplies delivered from the Bishop’s storehouse, and they would have welcomed anyone into the building and shared all they had with anyone who would have asked to join them. And would you care to guess why so many people didn’t even ask?

[wolfjingles]

I am not saying that people were not open to help. I know there were lots of people open to help and be helped i am saying generealy speaking we has a poeple after seing all that happened need to learn from it and not put ourselves seperate but become one the way we are supposed to be. i know there was help available and that people did not ask for help and that people had there pride and that stood in thereway i am just saying that after seeing what happened we would put our pride on one side. i know there was help out there but a lot of people suffered and a lot more died and i think the world as a whole needs to wake up and realise we are all people and we need to work together for the good of every one mabe then these disasters wont be so bad.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

pushk

Also, Please, I don't buy into the Bible BofM stuff, so I don't see any parallels between these natural disasters and the 'evil' of mankind in those places...that is just coincidence.

←

So YOU don't buy into the Bible and BofM STUFF? LOL

[Traveler]

I would like to clear up a number of things – first about the Willis and Martin handcart companies. For those familiar with history, more LDS pioneers lost their lives at Winter Quarters than were lost crossing the wilderness to Salt Lake. The risk was greater for members of Willis and Martin handcart companies to stay till next spring in Winter Quarters than to start out as late as they did for SLC. But what they did not count on was an early winter storm that came a month early. It was an unpredictable storm that came out of season. Had it not been for the early storm the Willis and Martin handcart companies would have made it to SLC with minimal loss of life.

Something else about New Orleans. At least 24 hours before the hurricane hit NOAA issued a statement directed to the residents of New Orleans. It was not a suggestion, nor was it a warning. What was issued was a full fledged “Evacuation Order” in the strongest language allowed under law and with all authority allowed in the agency for all residents to evacuate. The order clearly stated that any residents not evacuating could not rely on any government anywhere to prevent the loss of their lives in the aftermath (including flooding) that would occur. In fact the projections for loss of property and life presented to the mayor of New Orleans and Governor of Louisiana exceeded the current actual estimates.

In light of this information look what Bizabra said first about the handcart company:

“Trav, the Willie and Martin handcart companies died because they were ignorant immigrants who did not understand that heading out west at the time of the year that they did with only handcarts and no oxen was a recipe for disaster. They died because they got a late start and had to haul their own patukas AND their gear without the strong muscles of draft animals.

It was throught this particular "hardship" that many of them became quite familar with death.”

Now look what Bizabra says concerning New Orleans:

“Not everyone CAN take care of themselves or plan ahead. Are you a HUMAN or an ANIMAL? Do you pity and love and care for those less fortunate or less lucky than yourself? Do you treat them as you would Jesus, if you knew he was suffering as they are?

Or do you poke at them with a stick, comment on how stupid they are, then shrug and walk away, mumbling that they coulda shoulda helped themselves and leave them dying in their own misery?

Guess we can surmise the answer, eh? “

Bizabra - I suggest you consider your own words given as criticism of others as criticism of yourself.

The Traveler

[shanstress70]

Ray, if these people had enough supplies to last them 6 days, they would have been ruined. As far as them staying connected to people, I'm not sure that was an issue. I heard on NPR that New Orleans is known as 'the city of families'. When you meet someone on the street there, many times the first question they will ask is, "What school did you go to?" They aren't speaking of college, but of high school. Many people who are born there never leave. This means that perhaps many people had not connections or family, other than in the same city. And I'm sure many of them belonged to churches. But guess where there churches were most likely located? Probably N.O.

To the other poster who said something about 72 hour kits, they would have been swept away, and would have done no good in this situation.

Traveler, once again, many of the people did not have the means to leave. They could have gone to the Superdome, sure. But the Superdome was not equipped for these people. I saw the lines outside the building the day before. If I lived there and my choices were to stay put, or go to the Superdome, I probably would have stayed put. With most of us being middle-class, it's difficult to imagine people being too poor to get out, but I think some of them truly were. The city should have had a plan together that would have helped these people get out before the hurricane hit.

You know what, you guys? Just don't help. If I were in their places, I would not want to take a cent of help from people like you. Just go on with your blame game and let those of us who don't see the need in blaming them send help.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 7 2005, 05:36 PM

pushk

Also, Please, I don't buy into the Bible BofM stuff, so I don't see any parallels between these natural disasters and the 'evil' of mankind in those places...that is just coincidence.

←

So YOU don't buy into the Bible and BofM STUFF? LOL

←

What do you mean by that snide remark, Please?

Btw, I have enough friends/family connections to help me out when difficulties arise, who are also non-believers..it isn't just the LDS who prepare for disasters you know...others can do it without resorting to following the Bible or BofM. Btw, my non-believing friends do not happen to be evil either...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by pushka+Sep 8 2005, 09:17 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 7 2005, 05:36 PM

pushk

Also, Please, I don't buy into the Bible BofM stuff, so I don't see any parallels between these natural disasters and the 'evil' of mankind in those places...that is just coincidence.

←

So YOU don't buy into the Bible and BofM STUFF? LOL

←

What do you mean by that snide remark, Please?

Btw, I have enough friends/family connections to help me out when difficulties arise, who are also non-believers..it isn't just the LDS who prepare for disasters you know...others can do it without resorting to following the Bible or BofM. Btw, my non-believing friends do not happen to be evil either...

←

My snide remark was a response to your dismissing remark. You act like you are the total authority. If you don't buy in, no body can use valuable information in the discussion.

What kind of mentality is that?

And could you please show me where I said anything about LDS being the only one's prepared to help? Grief woman!

[pushka]

I wasn't actually stating that anybody had said the LDS were the only people prepared to help, I was referring to the mindset that the LDS were likely the only people prepared for such a disaster occurring...to themselves.

Okay, I admit that my comment was dismissive of the Bible and BofM...I still stand by my opinion however, that seeing the reasons behind these disasters in terms of the righteousness or evilness of the people in those areas as being supersticious nonsense...sorry if this offends you.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by pushka@Sep 8 2005, 11:04 AM

I wasn't actually stating that anybody had said the LDS were the only people prepared to help, I was referring to the mindset that the LDS were likely the only people prepared for such a disaster occurring...to themselves.

Okay, I admit that my comment was dismissive of the Bible and BofM...I still stand by my opinion however, that seeing the reasons behind these disasters in terms of the righteousness or evilness of the people in those areas as being supersticious nonsense...sorry if this offends you.

←

I'm not offended. I just believe very strongly that what we are seeing today is the hand of the Lord cleansing the earth.

I do not find it a mere coincidence that the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters.

[wolfjingles]

What i said about the 72 hour packs was not for that situation i said that we should have them as they may be a help to us now or in the futur when things go wrong. I strongly feel that new orleans is not going to be the only disaster we face. Were i am from the winters are bad and storms come up and the power goes out and it gets cold and unless you are prepared it becomes very dificult we have to know that these things will happen or could happen and we need to prepare how ever we can. Who cares who is lds and who is not we are all people and that is what matters we all need to act as people and help our fellow man we are all on this earth and we need to work together. i am sorry but weather you believe in the bofm or not should not matter wheather you belive in the bible or not should not matter. Non of that should matter. what matters is that you are who you are and you do your level best to be prepared for the bad weather that you can prepare for. It is a matter of you knowing how to handel the situations you are given and knowing what to do and were to go when all is said and done

[shanstress70]

I apologize for misunderstanding your point. I agree with all of what you just wrote. It is important to be ready for a disaster. I'm no longer LDS, but I always have at least a few weeks worth of food in the pantry.

[wolfjingles]

weather you are lds or not really does not matter were i live lds are few and far between we are spread right out and there is so many different religions that we have all just learnt to be freinds and leave those differences aside. I want to thank you for your message that you aggree with me.

[pushka]

I agree with you too, Wolfjingles, in this respect..

[wolfjingles]

thank you

[Guest bizabra]

I'm not offended. I just believe very strongly that what we are seeing today is the hand of the Lord cleansing the earth.

I do not find it a mere coincidence that the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters.

←

Please tell us in detail which particular "wicked" cities are experiencing the "worst disasters". Were the areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami wicked? How about Kobe, in Japan, that had that catastrophic earthquake a few years back? Were the people of Kobe living in one of the "most wicked cities" on Earth? You believe that the lard was "cleansing the earth" by sending them an earthquake?

Ya know, sometimes you really sound nutty.

Or do you just not think through things very clearly before you toss off your inane comments?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

I'm not offended. I just believe very strongly that what we are seeing today is the hand of the Lord cleansing the earth.

I do not find it a mere coincidence that the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters.

←

Please tell us in detail which particular "wicked" cities are experiencing the "worst disasters". Were the areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami wicked? How about Kobe, in Japan, that had that catastrophic earthquake a few years back? Were the people of Kobe living in one of the "most wicked cities" on Earth? You believe that the lard was "cleansing the earth" by sending them an earthquake?

Ya know, sometimes you really sound nutty.

Or do you just not think through things very clearly before you toss off your inane comments?

←

First of all I would be interested in seeing your answer to Heather's question for those who are not lds coming to a lds board.

Second. call me nutty. I will consider the source. Yes those cities are wicked. So are a lot more that are going to be getting some pretty good damage in the future. There are righteous among them, but they will suffer because of the wicked.

There is a prophecy ... and I don't have the reference, but it is findable in the book by scousen... that states that even the most righteous might suffer the calamities of the last days... but they will not fear if they are doing what they should be doing.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. Not even suffering deprevation. The worst thing that can happen is for someone to die in their sins because they wasted their lives in sin.

Are you christian Biz? Just wondering because if you are then you must believe what Paul said when he spoke of being content even while he rotted away in a filthy dugeon.

[shanstress70]

Please:

"There is a prophecy ... and I don't have the reference, but it is findable in the book by scousen... that states that even the most righteous might suffer the calamities of the last days... but they will not fear if they are doing what they should be doing.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. Not even suffering deprevation. The worst thing that can happen is for someone to die in their sins because they wasted their lives in sin."

So, lets say that there is what you would call a hard-working, righteous, Christian woman who was unable to get out of her house because she didn't have the money... or maybe she was disabled and in a wheelchair. She happened to have small children. She was not able to get out of her house, and witnessed her children drowning in her house, before she drowned as well. You're telling me that she did not fear, since she was doing what she should have been?

This is bizarre thinking!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Sep 10 2005, 03:57 PM

Please:

"There is a prophecy ... and I don't have the reference, but it is findable in the book by scousen... that states that even the most righteous might suffer the calamities of the last days... but they will not fear if they are doing what they should be doing.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. Not even suffering deprevation. The worst thing that can happen is for someone to die in their sins because they wasted their lives in sin."

So, lets say that there is what you would call a hard-working, righteous, Christian woman who was unable to get out of her house because she didn't have the money... or maybe she was disabled and in a wheelchair.  She happened to have small children.  She was not able to get out of her house, and witnessed her children drowning in her house, before she drowned as well.  You're telling me that she did not fear, since she was doing what she should have been?

This is bizarre thinking!

←

I don't know that it bizzare. It just isn't earth bound.

[Jason]

Please,

I agree that god is upset with us, so we're seeing his wrath. We need to turn back to worshipping him with all our mights, to hopefully apease his mighty wrath.

Let's pray together:

"O mighty god Neptune, we your servants have not been faithful, worshipping that other god who, though kind at times, is sometimes a big jerk. We ask thee, mighty Neptune, to forgive us and turn back your fierce wrath upon the coastal cites of the world. Amen."

If you accept Lord Neptune as your personal god and saviour, you will be born again!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 10 2005, 07:17 PM

Please,

I agree that god is upset with us, so we're seeing his wrath.  We need to turn back to worshipping him with all our mights, to hopefully apease his mighty wrath. 

Let's pray together:

"O mighty god Neptune, we your servants have not been faithful, worshipping that other god who, though kind at times, is sometimes a big jerk.  We ask thee, mighty Neptune, to forgive us and turn back your fierce wrath upon the coastal cites of the world. Amen."

If you accept Lord Neptune as your personal god and saviour, you will be born again!

←

Well you have shown your damage haven'tt you? It is taught in the Book of Mormon that those who turn away from the light once they have received it go into gross darkness. You have absolutely demonstrated that teaching to be true.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 10 2005, 07:39 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 10 2005, 07:17 PM

Please,

I agree that god is upset with us, so we're seeing his wrath.  We need to turn back to worshipping him with all our mights, to hopefully apease his mighty wrath. 

Let's pray together:

"O mighty god Neptune, we your servants have not been faithful, worshipping that other god who, though kind at times, is sometimes a big jerk.  We ask thee, mighty Neptune, to forgive us and turn back your fierce wrath upon the coastal cites of the world. Amen."

If you accept Lord Neptune as your personal god and saviour, you will be born again!

←

Well you have shown your damage haven'tt you? It is taught in the Book of Mormon that those who turn away from the light once they have received it go into gross darkness. You have absolutely demonstrated that teaching to be true.

←

Having read this I feel sheer panic inside I think it's time for a group hug.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Sep 10 2005, 07:58 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 10 2005, 07:39 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 10 2005, 07:17 PM

Please,

I agree that god is upset with us, so we're seeing his wrath.  We need to turn back to worshipping him with all our mights, to hopefully apease his mighty wrath. 

Let's pray together:

"O mighty god Neptune, we your servants have not been faithful, worshipping that other god who, though kind at times, is sometimes a big jerk.  We ask thee, mighty Neptune, to forgive us and turn back your fierce wrath upon the coastal cites of the world. Amen."

If you accept Lord Neptune as your personal god and saviour, you will be born again!

←

Well you have shown your damage haven'tt you? It is taught in the Book of Mormon that those who turn away from the light once they have received it go into gross darkness. You have absolutely demonstrated that teaching to be true.

←

Having read this I feel sheer panic inside I think it's time for a group hug.

←

LOL Strawberry. You are awesome.

[Guest bizabra]

I'm not offended. I just believe very strongly that what we are seeing today is the hand of the Lord cleansing the earth.

I do not find it a mere coincidence that the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters.

←

Please tell us in detail which particular "wicked" cities are experiencing the "worst disasters". Were the areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami wicked? How about Kobe, in Japan, that had that catastrophic earthquake a few years back? Were the people of Kobe living in one of the "most wicked cities" on Earth? You believe that the lard was "cleansing the earth" by sending them an earthquake?

Ya know, sometimes you really sound nutty.

Or do you just not think through things very clearly before you toss off your inane comments?

←

First of all I would be interested in seeing your answer to Heather's question for those who are not lds coming to a lds board.

Second. call me nutty. I will consider the source. Yes those cities are wicked. So are a lot more that are going to be getting some pretty good damage in the future. There are righteous among them, but they will suffer because of the wicked.

There is a prophecy ... and I don't have the reference, but it is findable in the book by scousen... that states that even the most righteous might suffer the calamities of the last days... but they will not fear if they are doing what they should be doing.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. Not even suffering deprevation. The worst thing that can happen is for someone to die in their sins because they wasted their lives in sin.

Are you christian Biz? Just wondering because if you are then you must believe what Paul said when he spoke of being content even while he rotted away in a filthy dugeon.

←

You are not being very specific in answering which cities, exactly, are are wicked and what are the disasters they are experiencing now because of this wickedness. I offered a few possibilities, you agree with them all, even though the "areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami" includes many cities, and a lot of small villages.

Your statement (the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters) is very bold and assertive. Please tell us more about the "wicked cities" you know are being hit with the "worst disasters". In other words, defend your claim, please.

Also, I have as much right as anyone to visit this board, if I so please, unless I am banned. My interest in THE CHURCH is because I am an ethnic Mormon, a card carrying member of Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, with 14 pioneer ancestors, some of them polygamists. My entire extended family on my Mothers side are all members. I was ex'd at 23 because of a misunderstanding about my "moral status" that I challenged (I had eloped and the "man's truck" parked outside my house that the nosy mormon neighbor saw and reported was my new husbands). I refused a bishops court summons, wadded it up and threw it in the face of the suits who tried to deliver it, so I was eventually ex'd for "disobedience to god's authority over me" in the form of these two priesthood holders because of my actions.

I hold no grudge, but I did not deserve the treatment I received. It did get me thinking and doing some research and reading. I eventually realized that THE CHURCH is simply one more human creation, from the mind of a martyred charismatic, who may or may not have believed his own stories. Certainly he was able to convince others that his stories were true, which is proof positive in my mind only of his personal charisma and salesmanship. It is no better and no worse than most religions, the people who believe it are pretty decent folks, some of the best people I know, my own family included, are members. They also tend to be naive and superstitious, however.

I love my family and I believe I received a decent and adequate moral training at their hands. However, I often bite my tongue at family gatherings, so find this board a convenient way to express the thoughts and ideas I would love to bring up with my family, but don't, because I do love and care about them and do not like to sow discord with those I love.

All of you here do not know me, I do not know you, you cannot (or should not) become all indignant and offended by what an anonymous person on a BB has to say. After all, it really IS nothing personal, from me to you. You are all simply surrogates for the kinds of questions and conversations I do not choose to ask or initiate with my loved ones.

As for my personal philosophy, I believe simply that LIFE and the universe are a great mystery, and I am content to leave it at that. I try to live by the golden rule, which seems more than adequate in order to get through the day and lead a full-filling life.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Please stated: I'm not offended. I just believe very strongly that what we are seeing today is the hand of the Lord cleansing the earth.

I do not find it a mere coincidence that the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters.

←

Biz stated: Please tell us in detail which particular "wicked" cities are experiencing the "worst disasters".    Were the areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami wicked?    How about Kobe, in Japan, that had that catastrophic earthquake a few years back?  Were the people of Kobe living in one of the "most wicked cities" on Earth?  You believe that the lard was "cleansing the earth" by sending them an earthquake?

Ya know, sometimes you really sound nutty.

Or do you just not think through things very clearly before you toss off your inane comments?

←

Please stated: First of all I would be interested in seeing your answer to Heather's question for those who are not lds coming to a lds board.

Second. call me nutty. I will consider the source. Yes those cities are wicked. So are a lot more that are going to be getting some pretty good damage in the future. There are righteous among them, but they will suffer because of the wicked.

There is a prophecy ... and I don't have the reference, but it is findable in the book by scousen... that states that even the most righteous might suffer the calamities of the last days... but they will not fear if they are doing what they should be doing.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. Not even suffering deprevation. The worst thing that can happen is for someone to die in their sins because they wasted their lives in sin.

Are you christian Biz? Just wondering because if you are then you must believe what Paul said when he spoke of being content even while he rotted away in a filthy dugeon.

←

Biz stated: You are not being very specific in answering which cities, exactly, are are wicked and what are the disasters they are experiencing now because of this wickedness.  I offered a few possibilities, you agree with them all, even though the "areas that were hard hit by the Tsunami" includes many cities, and a lot of small villages.

Your statement (the most wicked cities are experiencing the worst disasters)  is very bold and assertive.  Please tell us more about the "wicked cities" you know are being hit with the "worst disasters".  In other words, defend your claim, please.

Also, I have as much right as anyone to visit this board, if I so please, unless I am banned.  My interest in THE CHURCH is because I am an ethnic Mormon, a card carrying member of Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, with 14 pioneer ancestors, some of them polygamists.  My entire extended family on my Mothers side are all members.  I was ex'd at 23 because of a misunderstanding about my "moral status" that I challenged (I had eloped and the "man's truck" parked outside my house that the nosy mormon neighbor saw and reported was my new husbands).  I refused a bishops court summons, wadded it up and threw it in the face of the suits who tried to deliver it, so I was eventually ex'd for "disobedience to god's authority over me" in the form of these two priesthood holders because of my actions. 

I hold no grudge, but I did not deserve the treatment I received.  It did get me thinking and doing some research and reading.  I eventually realized that THE CHURCH is simply one more human creation, from the mind of a martyred charismatic, who may or may not have believed his own stories.  Certainly he was able to convince others that his stories were true, which is proof positive in my mind only of his personal charisma and salesmanship.  It is no better and no worse than most religions, the people who believe it are pretty decent folks, some of the best people I know, my own family included, are members.  They also tend to be naive and superstitious, however.

I love my family and I believe I received a decent and adequate moral training at their hands.  However, I often bite my tongue at family gatherings, so find this board a convenient way to express the thoughts and ideas I would love to bring up with my family, but don't, because I do love and care about them and do not like to sow discord with those I love.

All of you here do not know me, I do not know you, you cannot (or should not) become all indignant and offended by what an anonymous person on a BB has to say.  After all, it really IS nothing personal, from me to you.  You are all simply surrogates for the kinds of questions and conversations I do not choose to ask or initiate with my loved ones.

As for my personal philosophy, I believe simply that LIFE and the universe are a great mystery, and I am content to leave it at that.  I try to live by the golden rule, which seems more than adequate in order to get through the day and lead a full-filling life.

←

First of all, I think it stinks that you feel you can abuse us with your tripe discussions where you refuse to discuss with the parties that need to have the discussion.=your family.

And it sounds very much like you hold a grudge. You really shouldn't as you were given a chance to clear your name and you wodded it up and showed your seemingly routine attitude of disrespect for the church and its leaders. You are a coward and to cover your weaknesses, you go in search of the church's supposed flaws to take the attention away from your own. I don't find that you are all that superior to be throwing out the negative comments you so frequently do.

Second. Watch the news and listen for the words "worst disasters" and take note of their locations. That will give you the cities.

Third... I resent you making sweeping statements as to the validity of Joseph Smith and making statements against the church as if you are the authority of it all and what you say is true without question. You really are only showing your shallow ignorance. You re nothing but rude, rude, rude.