LDS but no testimony of Joseph

[lattelady]

I have a friend who is strong LDS (she's not just a "sunday Mormon", but she lives her faith day in, and day out), but she says that she doesn't have a testimony of Joseph Smith. Is that possible?

[Gwen]

why not? joseph was an important part of all this but he won't save us. if she has a testimony of christ and the saving ordinances joseph helped to restore what does it matter if she doesn't feel a connection to him? not trying to dismiss joseph but seriously, in the end what does he have to do with being saved?

i don't feel like my testamony is founded on or even closely tied to joseph.

[lattelady]

Well, I know other members who have a strong belief that Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ will be on the judgement seat, when it comes to our eternal destiny, so I guess I assumed it mattered to them and that their testimony was absolutely tied to Joseph. Maybe it's just different for different people?

[Dravin]

Generally Missionaries try to get investigators to make the connection that:

Book of Mormon is true (which teaches of Jesus Christ and his atonement).

Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Church is true.

Join Church.

That said, depending on what one means by testimony its entirely possible that somebody gained a testimony letting them know the church was true but not necessarily having received a witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet, it being something implied by other things they have received a testimony of being true but haven't actually received a witness of. Also you have those who have received a witness of some sort but don't necessarily realize it particularly with those who've grown up in the Church, they've felt spiritual confirmations their whole life but because they haven't had an epiphany they don't feel they have a testimony. Honestly there is a lot of might bes and its possibles without knowing her.

Am I making any kind of sense here?

Edited September 20, 2009 by Dravin

[Misshalfway]

TESTIMONY: When someone has recieved some form of spiritual communication from God confirming a belief or idea or concept. ( it is possible to have a testimony and not fully realize it. It is also possible to believe something firmly without a testimony.)

Is it possible to have a testimony of the church and NOT have a testimony of JSmith? Sure! Is that a problem? Not at all.

Testimonies (in the LDS view) are comprised of lots of moving parts...parts that come together to give one a spiritual understanding of truth. Truth itself has many pieces. One can gain spiritual knowledge on one idea and build from there. One can pray about a topic or even be taught something spontaneously from God. It is all testimony or stuff we know from God about that thing. And it is all a matter of degree....even though most LDS people throw around the words "I know" alot.

Gaining testimony (or strong spiritual knowledge) is a process that gains momentum and breadth over time IF one continues on in patterns of receiving truth from the Holy Spirit thru obedient practice and proper prayer and study. Sometimes one can "know" something for a time and then have that knowledged tested. God is wise in this as it strengthens and expands that measure of knowledge.

It would be interesting to talk to your friend and find out more about why she feels the way she does. What are her definitions of "spiritual confirmation", etc.? Sometimes LDS folks fail to understand all the different ways the Spirit communicates. They look for "big" experiences or singular events so they can officially say they have a testimony. Sometimes this happens, but it is often only one of the ways the Spirit works. The still small voice is usually very quiet in its manuverings as it gives us layering bits over all the moments of our experience.

I have at times felt that I was absolutely sure about certain tenants of my faith and at the very same time retained some huge question marks or even doubts. It's all good as long as I keep a clear understanding of the process. All of us, I think are a combination of what we know and what we have yet to learn. And we don't just worship and obey because of knowledge. We continue on using faith and hope many times before the light comes to us.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Misshalfway

[lattelady]

The reason she has no testimony of Joseph Smith, at least what she'll express to me (there could be more that she's leaving out, but I couldn't know that) is that she struggles with the issue of polygamy. So if she leaves that aside, everything else about the Church she loves. The issue of polygamy and that Joseph Smith for a time seemed on board with it as the Prophet throws her for a loop. She tries to put that in a box a set it on a shelf, which I don't know if you can fully do. Somehow she has to come to terms with that.

[thews]

why not? joseph was an important part of all this but he won't save us. if she has a testimony of christ and the saving ordinances joseph helped to restore what does it matter if she doesn't feel a connection to him? not trying to dismiss joseph but seriously, in the end what does he have to do with being saved?

i don't feel like my testamony is founded on or even closely tied to joseph.

I have a hard time understanding this logic. IMO, either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, a righteous man and the Book of Mormon is true, or he was not and the Book of Mormon is false. Would you agree?

[Misshalfway]

The reason she has no testimony of Joseph Smith, at least what she'll express to me (there could be more that she's leaving out, but I couldn't know that) is that she struggles with the issue of polygamy. So if she leaves that aside, everything else about the Church she loves. The issue of polygamy and that Joseph Smith for a time seemed on board with it as the Prophet throws her for a loop. She tries to put that in a box a set it on a shelf, which I don't know if you can fully do. Somehow she has to come to terms with that.

Well, that is a different issue.

One of the parts that is sometimes challenging for LDS people is to live in the revelation of the current prophet. Sometimes the current prophet tells the people to pack up and leave their homes and riches behind and build a boat and go to a new land. Sometimes the current prophet has to fight with Pharoah's and tell the people to put lambs blood on their doorsteps.

Polygamy was one of those hard commandments that came for those people at that time for whatever purpose it had. God certainly didn't talk it over with me before he commanded it. Your friend is not alone in her concerns. Many of us grapple with it. Even me, and I have recieved spiritual confirmations on the dang issue and I still can't accept it. It's all good. I hand it all to God.

The real question is not really about Joseph or polygamy for that matter. The real question is whether or not God used Joseph as a tool and whether or not Christ is at the helm of this church. The church isn't perfect and never has claimed to be. Christ knows that it is an imperfect progression and I think He is ok with it. Our challenge is to trust and move forward in obedience with the things that we do know from God. And if we don't know something, it is our duty to appeal to the Lord for more light. And if He doesn't give the light, then we apply our faith and move forward anyway with our best eartly wisdom. We can't do any better than that, can we?

[Gwen]

I have a hard time understanding this logic. IMO, either Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, a righteous man and the Book of Mormon is true, or he was not and the Book of Mormon is false. Would you agree?

in my thinking you have your if then backward. you are saying if joseph was a prophet then the book of mormon is true.... i say if the book of mormon is true then joseph was a prophet.

i know i'm arguing semantics but for me it's a difference. my testimony (and maybe this is a sign of weakness but i don't think so) is in pieces so to speak. i separate the scriptures from latterday revelation. i separate the church from the gospel. i seperate ancient prophets from living.

i have a testimony of the scriptures. those associated with their being here must have been lead by god. i don't need to pray about who they were as a person, that's not important to me. by their fruits ye shall know them. i know the fruits that's enough for me. i'm sure if i prayed i'd get an answer. i just don't feel compelled to pray about it. joseph was a prophet because of what he did. maybe he did some things that were unbecoming of his stature but don't we all? he was human, imperfect, and i can accpet that. sometimes the church does things that make me wonder and it bothers me. i have a testimony of the saving ordinances. this is the only church that can provide them. therefore it must be the true church on the earth at this time. i can live with the imprefections in the church (usually brought about by imperfect ppl within the church) knowing that the gospel is true.

is that making any since. i know this method of testimony development doesn't work for everyone. doesn't even work for my husband, he's an all or nothing. he accpets it all tied together. for me they aren't, each thing is on it's own merrits. it works for me. it allows me to have faith and stay strong. to each his own.

[tubaloth]

The reason she has no testimony of Joseph Smith, at least what she'll express to me (there could be more that she's leaving out, but I couldn't know that) is that she struggles with the issue of polygamy. So if she leaves that aside, everything else about the Church she loves. The issue of polygamy and that Joseph Smith for a time seemed on board with it as the Prophet throws her for a loop. She tries to put that in a box a set it on a shelf, which I don't know if you can fully do. Somehow she has to come to terms with that.

I think you can put Polygamy in a box and set it on a shelf, but I don't see how you can put Joseph Smith on the shelf. Everything this church is, is because of Joseph Smith.

First vision true or not?

Priesthood restored true or not (and this could be part of the Polygamy box).

God told Joseph Smith to restore a church true or not.

Joseph Smith receives revelation from God true or not.

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon (and restored other scriptures) true or not.

I don't see how you can take all of that out of the church and still follow it (as well as you say she does).

I have never sat down and prayed about polygamy. I don't think the church asks us to do that (and I would question if you would get an answer, but thats for a different thread).

What the church asks is you find out if Joseph Smith is a true prophet, first vision, and that Book of Mormon is true. I think some of these is a Temple Question is it not?

I know Joseph Smith is a prophet. What happen with Polygamy I don't know. I just know he was call to be the prophet, that’s good enough for me.

[Palerider]

Well, I know other members who have a strong belief that Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ will be on the judgement seat, when it comes to our eternal destiny, so I guess I assumed it mattered to them and that their testimony was absolutely tied to Joseph. Maybe it's just different for different people?

They told you they believe that Joseph Smith was going to be on the Judgement seat????

[lattelady]

Actually what they said was that along with being on the "bar", judging people's eternal destiny, he and Jesus "hold the keys" to the Celestial Kingdom.

[annamaureen]

The reason she has no testimony of Joseph Smith, at least what she'll express to me (there could be more that she's leaving out, but I couldn't know that) is that she struggles with the issue of polygamy. So if she leaves that aside, everything else about the Church she loves. The issue of polygamy and that Joseph Smith for a time seemed on board with it as the Prophet throws her for a loop.

I had a similar problem for a while. The issue of polygamy was both horryifing and confusing to me. Eventually I had to tell myself, "Do I understand polygamy? No. Have I had that "burning in the bosom" testimony of Joseph Smith? No. But essentially, do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Yes." It seems like I'm simplifying a bit, but it's what worked for me. Just rationalizing out that if I believe in the church, then it must be that I believe in JS, since he was God's tool to restore it.

[lattelady]

Annamaureen, So would you say the same thing my friend is saying, if asked about it? That you have a strong testimony of the Church but not a testimony of Joseph Smith? Or would you not go so far as to say that? (But you can at least understand what she means by that, right?)

[annamaureen]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't have a testimony of Joseph - it's just very low on my list, if that makes sense. Out of everything in the church, there are other things I feel much more strongly faithful about than him.

[Hemidakota]

I have a friend who is strong LDS (she's not just a "sunday Mormon", but she lives her faith day in, and day out), but she says that she doesn't have a testimony of Joseph Smith. Is that possible?

Yes! However, in times to come, she may fail without having this precious portion of a divine testimony. She needs to seek an answer...

[Hemidakota]

I had a similar problem for a while. The issue of polygamy was both horryifing and confusing to me. Eventually I had to tell myself, "Do I understand polygamy? No. Have I had that "burning in the bosom" testimony of Joseph Smith? No. But essentially, do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Yes." It seems like I'm simplifying a bit, but it's what worked for me. Just rationalizing out that if I believe in the church, then it must be that I believe in JS, since he was God's tool to restore it.

Excellent post...

Even the brethren will openly admit, they do not understand all things in this life.

[FunkyTown]

I'm going to back up Gwen on this. I don't think a testimony of Joseph is necessary to be part of the church. It's odd, certainly, but not vital.

Funny thing, lack of a testimony on Joseph: It doesn't mean she thinks he wasn't a prophet; It means she doesn't know if he was. If she has a testimony of the saviour, Jesus Christ, and through this testimony has a testimony of the church, it doesn't really matter that much. We all struggle with some aspect or another. Is it a crime that hers happens to rest on one few others have an issue with?

I think you can put Polygamy in a box and set it on a shelf, but I don't see how you can put Joseph Smith on the shelf. Everything this church is, is because of Joseph Smith.

First vision true or not?

Priesthood restored true or not (and this could be part of the Polygamy box).

God told Joseph Smith to restore a church true or not.

Joseph Smith receives revelation from God true or not.

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon (and restored other scriptures) true or not.

I don't see how you can take all of that out of the church and still follow it (as well as you say she does).

I have never sat down and prayed about polygamy. I don't think the church asks us to do that (and I would question if you would get an answer, but thats for a different thread).

What the church asks is you find out if Joseph Smith is a true prophet, first vision, and that Book of Mormon is true. I think some of these is a Temple Question is it not?

I know Joseph Smith is a prophet. What happen with Polygamy I don't know. I just know he was call to be the prophet, that’s good enough for me.

[Misshalfway]

Actually what they said was that along with being on the "bar", judging people's eternal destiny, he and Jesus "hold the keys" to the Celestial Kingdom.

I think there is a quote from Brigham Young about this. I am sure that is what people have in their minds. I don't know exactly where to find the quote, but this doesn't mean that Joseph is put on the level with Jesus. Joseph is simply a servant and holds certain keys as part of his responsibilities. Perhaps there are priesthood duties associated with the judgement. I don't know how it all works. But he isn't the Savior.

I am not sure its important that we have a testimony of Joseph Smith the man. I think it is more important that we have a testimony of how God calls his servants and and what parts of that service we trust to guide our lives.

I recall one story about Brigham Young. Forgive me if I don't get it exactly right as it was my Father who shared it with me. But I guess Brigham had asked this man if he would perform some duty. He basically told Brigham that if the request was from him as a man, he would say no as he didn't like Brigham much. But if it came from God he would absolutely obey.

I think this is a good illustration because our testimonies aren't really on the surest foundation unless we understand the principles. Joseph wasn't perfect. He was the first to admit it and told everyone who followed him not to expect him to be more. There are those, though, who genuine revere the man and who may tend towards romanticising his character. I appreciate and love Joseph, but I didn't agree with everything he did. My testimony in the concepts of seers and revelation transcend all of it.

[Hemidakota]

For those who live in this dispensation, Joseph will be one of judges with the Godhead. Every dispensation has it lead prophet, each of which will play an important role in the day of judgement.

[mnn727]

Well, I know other members who have a strong belief that Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ will be on the judgement seat, when it comes to our eternal destiny, so I guess I assumed it mattered to them and that their testimony was absolutely tied to Joseph. Maybe it's just different for different people?

I have to comment on the Joseph and Jesus on the judgement seat.

I hope you understand that to mean it the same way Jesus in the Bible says the 12 original apostles will judge Israel and not that we believe Joseph is equal to Jesus - we don't.

[mnn727]

When I joined the Church 16+ years ago, I didn't really know about this whole 'modern day Prophet' thing, it took me a while to agree with it. Now when you stop to think about it, if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God (cause it wasn't a translation in the normal sense of the word with someone sitting down with a xxxx language to English dictionary and translating it word for word or concept for concept), the Joseph had to be a Prophet.

Also, this polygamy thing bothers some people but never bothered me. Frankly, you don't need to believe in or even understand it as we no longer practice it, It was a practice that ended over 110 years ago, why is it still something people have a hard time with? - I just don't understand it.

Edited September 24, 2009 by mnn727

[Threeve]

Also, this polygamy thing bothers some people but never bothered me. Frankly, you don't need to believe in or even understand it as we no longer practice it, It was a practice that ended over 110 years ago, why is it still something people have a hard time with? - I just don't understand it.

Polygamy can be a very big issue to some people, especially the way Joseph Smith practiced it. He continually lied about it, hid it from Emma, and married teens, promising salvation to them and their whole family if they married him. To some one with a faltering testimony (or even a firm one) this can be a huge issue, especially the way we brush Smith's polygamy under the rug. We still believe in it, a man can be married to more than one wife if the former dies. The woman has to choose between her two loves, if one dies. Smith and the other polygamist prophets will be with all their wives in the next life. DC still contains the law of polygamy, and even many prophets taught that it will be restored. I remember even my bishop told us that polygamy will be restored in the next life, because the "gene" pool is too small. It's still a part of us, no matter how much we wish it other wise and just because it was practiced a long time ago, doesn't mean some people find it degrading and question the truthfulness of Joseph Smith.

I do not believe you /need/ a testimony of Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ died for our sins, and he will be the one judging us. Saying that Joseph Smith or other prophets will be, kind of sounds Ed Decker-ish to me. Jesus knows us, because he died for us, he is perfect, he knows our souls. I would not want an imperfect man judging me at the last day. I think Jesus is good enough :)

I know many LDS members who do not have a testimony of J Smith/limited testimony. Does that mean they are not mormon? Of course not! They still love their neighbors, attend church every Sunday, hold callings, go to the temple, and are generally good people. There's no guidelines saying "this is what you HAVE to believe in, or you are not a Mormon."

EDIT:

I spend a lot of time looking for this quote

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

Edited October 4, 2009 by Threeve

[MichaelPAGuy]

I know for myself polygamy was an issue that lead myself away from the church. We were not alive back in those days so we may never understand why the lord commanded it. It is apart of our church's past. We cannot erase it. It is and will always be there. We do not practice it today. It took me 31 years to finally come to terms with polygamy and gain a full testimony of this church. Her testimony of Joseph might come over time. You never know how the lord will soften her heart.

[TheJoker]

Joseph is the core to the LDS belief.

So if you don't believe in what happened to Joseph. You don't believe that their was a restoration.

I suggest looking into Joseph Smith's life. Ask your leaders and research into what you think would decide if you believe it or not.

In my experience. There is evidence for many conclusions about Joseph Smith.