Talking Donkey

[Snow]

Howdy,

Is a talking donkey more or less wishful than any of the other notions in which religious adherents believe? (Namely, God and all that.)

Regards,

Kawazu

Yes.

A talking donkey is totally unnecessary to anything. A god, namely The God, is a necessary and essential component of our theology and soteriology.

[Maxel]

Why do you putz around with this stuff Maxel. It's not the OT that I am discrediting. It's a literalistic interpretation of the OT that I disagree with.

I believe the story in question is an account of prophetic experience in the form of dreams or visions. It's a real donkey talking that don't accept as literal.

If you believe in the possibility of a situation, what's wrong with accepting the reality of it? Part of the reason this is so important is that, if we can disbelieve anything we want to because there's no evidence to support it, the entire Book of Mormon and modern revelation goes out the window.

Your explanation- that you believe it's a "prophetic experience [in a] dream"- jars against your earlier defense for not believing it- that there's no real way the writer could have known of the story. Unless you want to credit the author with prophetic powers and it's the author receiving the vision, not Balaam. Then again, you have no evidence for that.

I am "putzing" with all this for a reason. I want to know- in plain words- exactly how the "whooshing" comment related to me misunderstanding bmy's statement. Tell me what exactly you meant by it- and no nice 'you misunderstood what he meant'; how does the term "whooshing" play into things?

[Kawazu]

Yes.

A talking donkey is totally unnecessary to anything. A god, namely The God, is a necessary and essential component of our theology and soteriology.

Hi,

How do you determine which miraculous occurrences are prophetic visions and which are literal events?

Regards,

Kawazu

[Snow]

If you believe in the possibility of a situation, what's wrong with accepting the reality of it? Part of the reason this is so important is that, if we can disbelieve anything we want to because there's no evidence to support it, the entire Book of Mormon and modern revelation goes out the window.

I don't disbelieve it because there is no evidence for it. I interpret in the way that makes the most sense.

That something is possible is not a reason to believe it. I truly think it is possible for Elvis to rise from the dead and defeat Al Gore in a global warming debate - God being omnipotent COULD do anything (non-contradictory), but if someone claimed that it had actually happened, I wouldn't believe it.

Your explanation- that you believe it's a "prophetic experience [in a] dream"- jars against your earlier defense for not believing it- that there's no real way the writer could have known of the story. Unless you want to credit the author with prophetic powers and it's the author receiving the vision, not Balaam. Then again, you have no evidence for that.

It's a common sense issue. Common sense tells you that donkeys don't talk. Common sense tells you that the author had no way to know what might have happened hundreds of years earlier (and made no claim that he had received a revelation).

I am "putzing" with all this for a reason. I want to know- in plain words- exactly how the "whooshing" comment related to me misunderstanding bmy's statement. Tell me what exactly you meant by it- and no nice 'you misunderstood what he meant'; how does the term "whooshing" play into things?

Whoosh is the sound something makes as it flies right by you. His point flew right by you Maxel. It's an expression. That's all. I'm teasing you.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

Hi,

How do you determine which miraculous occurrences are prophetic visions and which are literal events?

Regards,

Kawazu

The easiest answer is... God endows man with certain tools: the ability to reason, the ability to pray, the ability to receive inspiration, the ability to place things in context, etc. I employ the tools God has blessed me with.

[pam]

At the beginning I was willing to defend my opinion that I believe this happened.

But I now understand where Snow is coming from. He has admitted he believes a miracle like this can happen. He has stated that. What he is disputing is the timeframe and why he feels it didn't happen. He has provided some historical information as well on the subject.

I'm not knowledgeable in the history of the bible. I've never studied it. However, with the information Snow has provided it does make a bit more sense. Allegory is used through the entire Bible..why can't this be another example?

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

Four words: Francis the Talking Mule.

Six movies in all.

[ferretrunner]

Why is the idea of a talking donkey such a crazy idea? I've seen the story of a talking donkey in the Old Testament ridiculed recently. I was wondering if anyone had a cogent argument against it.

LOL! When I read the title of this thread, my mind went immediately to Donkey on Shrek!

"We're gonna sit up and have manly talk. And tomorrow morning, I'm making pancakes!"

That's intresting. I am not at all familiar with the story. Perhaps he was gifted with the ability to understand that donkey? Or could the donkey talk to everyone?>

[Snow]

Here's a useful rule of thumb...

Take the event out of the shrouds of 3000 year old mystery and place it into today's context. If in next week's General Conference, a General Authority, say Elder Applespitzenhozen, said in his talk:

"Last night I was talking with the dog of my neighbor Sam; and the dog says to me "Why don't you wave to me in the morning when you drive off to work. Am I not worthy of some neighborly respect... oh, and I'm not joking. The dog really talked to me - in a human voice..."

And if the Elder Applespitzenhozen stuck by the story and continued to represent it as an actual event, how long do you think it would be before he became the Emeritus Elder Applespitzenhozen?

No long my friends.

Likewise if the prophet today said that God instructed him to take an army of Mormons and attack some Muslim farmers over the boarder in Nevada, to kill the farmers, steal their cattle, enslave their children and kidnap their virgin women as booty - and then tried to actually do it - you can imagine that he wouldn't be prophet for much longer and the whole Church would then sigh a relief that when the insane leader was deposed.

But take those two events, cover them in 3000 years of shadow and people will say - sure, sounds reasonable, but it's not, not then, not now.

[lattelady]

So is your point that if God tells the prophet to do something really strange, or to say something really strange, then it probably didn't come from God? That point wouldn't be very well taken with most people who follow a prophet. Or God's Word, the Bible. It typically defies man's logic. There are MANY examples of prophets in the Old Testament who were told by God to do some pretty bizarre things. If those things had caused the people to say, "Look at them! They're odd ducks! I'm not listening to them! I don't trust the source," those people would've been in a world of hurt--probably literally.

God made the donkey. He can certainly command it to do whatever He pleases, even if it looks impossible to man.

[Snow]

So is your point that if God tells the prophet to do something really strange, or to say something really strange, then it probably didn't come from God? That point wouldn't be very well taken with most people who follow a prophet. Or God's Word, the Bible. It typically defies man's logic. There are MANY examples of prophets in the Old Testament who were told by God to do some pretty bizarre things. If those things had caused the people to say, "Look at them! They're odd ducks! I'm not listening to them! I don't trust the source," those people would've been in a world of hurt--probably literally.

God made the donkey. He can certainly command it to do whatever He pleases, even if it looks impossible to man.

Then I can assume that if whoever you view as a prophet today (although I imagine you believe that God stopped talking to prophets in the days of Paul) instructed you to go murder some Muslims, steal their cattle, enslave their children and rape their women, you'd do it?

No - I don't think you would. I think that you, contrary to your post above, would say - that seems really strange, it probably didn't come from God - I don't think I'll murder anyone today and steal the cow.

[lattelady]

Hmmm. That's a good point.

I don't believe that the role of prophet is for today, but if I did, I wonder how far I would go in obeying him? God, back in Old Testament times led people into war and asked them (the Israelites) not to spare ANYTHING--in other words, kill EVERYTHING. That would've been hard. But He expected complete obedience. I guess the point I was trying to make was that God asked prophets like Hosea to do some really odd things (like marry a prosititute), and even after they were married and she left him for a client, God told Hosea to buy her back. I'm sure Hosea himself didn't even understand why he had to do it. It didn't make him less credible as a prophet. He had to walk by faith. The people who heard his prophetic words had to believe that he was hearing from God and respond accordingly. If I believed that prophets were for today, I would have to put them to the test: if, when they spoke God's words, those things came to pass, I would trust them. If they didn't, I would say they were a false prophet.

[Moksha]

Snow, are you forgetting about the verbal skills of Mr. Ed and to be more precise, Francis the Talking Mule - who played an important part in winning World War II.

Even in our own lives, can't we think of at least one example of animals talking? What about your cat? Wouldn't parrots count?

If you discount a talking donkey, it becomes a cascade effect, where members will be questioning whether Jonah was actually swallowed by the whale. Soon they will be thinking in terms of allegory and symbolism. Can't have that.

:)

[Snow]

But He expected complete obedience.

In reality - people didn't know what God expected. God is silent and doesn't say. The issue is that someone declares: "God want's me to speak for him and I say that He demands complete obedience - kill the farmers and rape the virgins - obey."

[Ezequiel]

I think that all living beings have some degree of intelligence. And as such, all have a way to communicate. The fact that Enoch heard the Earth itself speak, when it had no lungs, vocal cords, or even a tongue or mouth illustrates the fact that verbal communication is beyond the constraints of a system of organs. When I look at Enoch's example, I dont see Donkey story too farfetched.

I like to believe that as spiritual beings we have the capacity to communicate beyond our mortal, verbal way.

[Snow]

I think that all living beings have some degree of intelligence. And as such, all have a way to communicate. The fact that Enoch heard the Earth itself speak, when it had no lungs, vocal cords, or even a tongue or mouth illustrates the fact that verbal communication is beyond the constraints of a system of organs. When I look at Enoch's example, I dont see Donkey story too farfetched.

I like to believe that as spiritual beings we have the capacity to communicate beyond our mortal, verbal way.

What language do you think the earth can speak in?

[Dravin]

Terran? After all it's what Xorn speak, so it makes a degree of sense.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Dravin

[Moksha]

What language do you think the earth can speak in?

Perhaps something that sounds like wind, waterfalls, volcanos, geysers tidal waves and earthquakes.

Allegory and symbolism seem more suited for this reality than talking donkeys and earth sounds.

:)

[Snow]

Perhaps something that sounds like wind, waterfalls, volcanos, geysers tidal waves and earthquakes.

Allegory and symbolism seem more suited for this reality than talking donkeys and earth sounds.

:)

So you don't think that the earth can force air though a set of elastic vocal folds and can then can modify the airstream with things like lips, tongue, teeth, into human speech? And that the earth has enough intelligence to translate whatever it's native tongue is, into a language that Enoch spoke?

[Maxel]

Do you believe in the gift of tongues, Snow and Moksha? A "Yes" or "No" will suffice, along with a brief description of what you believe does(n't) happen when the gift of tongues is manifested.

(I'm dropping my earlier line of questioning... It will lead nowhere if I pursue it.)

[Gillebre]

It is my personal belief that the donkey did in fact rebuke it's rider, and that Enoch did hear the earth speak. It would be possible, in my opinion, that the earth or the donkey would be able to send an audible telepathic message that is able to be understood by those who hear it.

As Maxel said, it ties in very well with the gift of tongues, which has far more applications than being able to understand or speak a language with which you normally have little or no affinity. Why can that gift allow people to perceive the words (and in some cases, the gift of discernment allows thoughts to be perceived) of other children of God, why not of the spirit of the earth or an animal?

We know from scripture that all things exist spiritually prior to their physical embodiment, and by what means do spirits communicate? Telepathy, is my guess. Words are often very inadequate for what we want to express to others. I doubt as we were raised in our Father's home before our mortality that we all spoke vocally. I'm sure that at times we did, but I think the faculties of our intelligence, our mind, were much more handy in communicating.

I have had some personal experience with the gift of tongues, in that I have in the past communicated with my pet. I've heard her thoughts before, and I've even had moments where she has heard mine. Animals are intelligent creatures of God, and I fully expect in the Resurrection that their ability to speak will be theirs in totality.

[Snow]

Do you believe in the gift of tongues, Snow and Moksha? A "Yes" or "No" will suffice, along with a brief description of what you believe does(n't) happen when the gift of tongues is manifested.

(I'm dropping my earlier line of questioning... It will lead nowhere if I pursue it.)

I assume you mean like donkeys suddenly talking in Hebrew and not like missionaries picking up Portuguese really fast.

So here's the deal Maxel - I know of zero evidence for barnyard critters carrying on conversations in human languages. Zero. Not one jot. ... and, as it so happens, believing it is completely irrelevant to salvation; ergo, it's not even an issue of belief or non-belief. Unless the belief is somehow useful and/or necessary I don't even bother with having to make a decision to believe, especially when it comes to bizarre and outlandish claims.

There is, I believe, a very important reason that God endowed / gifted mankind with the ability to reason and employ logic. I don't take such gifts lightly.

[Maxel]

So here's the deal Maxel - I know of zero evidence for barnyard critters carrying on conversations in human languages. Zero. Not one jot. ... and, as it so happens, believing it is completely irrelevant to salvation; ergo, it's not even an issue of belief or non-belief. Unless the belief is somehow useful and/or necessary I don't even bother with having to make a decision to believe, especially when it comes to bizarre and outlandish claims.

This is the reason I dropped the earlier line of questioning- this has very little to do with the topic at hand.

Let me fine tune my earlier question:

-What do you believe happens when the gift of tongues is manifested as it was on the day of Pentecost, where men of God preached in languages that they couldn't speak. What exactly happened so that both the speaker and the hearer understood what was being said, despite the language barrier?

[bytor2112]

I assume you mean like donkeys suddenly talking in Hebrew and not like missionaries picking up Portuguese really fast.

So here's the deal Maxel - I know of zero evidence for barnyard critters carrying on conversations in human languages. Zero. Not one jot. ... and, as it so happens, believing it is completely irrelevant to salvation; ergo, it's not even an issue of belief or non-belief. Unless the belief is somehow useful and/or necessary I don't even bother with having to make a decision to believe, especially when it comes to bizarre and outlandish claims.

There is, I believe, a very important reason that God endowed / gifted mankind with the ability to reason and employ logic. I don't take such gifts lightly.

Perhaps in the Garden of Eden before the fall.

[Moksha]

Maxel, I think talking donkeys would be fun. Ever since I saw a mini-donk close up I have appreciated them. Much easier to maintain too as long as you can reason with them. Hopefully they would not be stubborn in their lines of conversation. It would be a real gift to have such a donkey.

People and the Gift of Tongues

You know, I have always had a hankering to speak many foreign languages and possibly even talk with snooty French speakers, if I pronounced the words right and perhaps wore a beret and carried a baguette. Such a gift would be wonderful.