Issue with Baptisms for the Dead..

[bmy-]

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73-79.) They will not be part of eternal families; they will live separately and singly forever (see D&C 131:1-4).

Gospel Principles

Yes -- it's backed up by doctrine -- but I question the interpretation. Does this say (like it sounds) that those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation (Ex: The overwhelming majority of people around us) are destined for the Terrestrial kingdom?

So what it boils down to.. is why bother with performing Baptisms for the Dead if they are not allowed to be part of eternal families? Is it just so they go to the Terrestrial kingdom instead of the Telestial?

It's late.. and I hope I read this wrong.

[pam]

It's pretty much what lds.org also says:

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–80, 91, 97.

There will be many who will reject it in this life but will accept it in the next. But they will have missed their opportunity for the Celestial Kingdom. As will members who were not valiant.

[bmy-]

Accepting the Gospel in the after-life (going through proxy-baptism, etc) isn't enough?

That doesn't sound right to me. Seems like a bum deal. For example.. my entire family (every single person, extended family included) with the exception of myself is going to be forced to not be a part of a family and to live alone? What incentive is there to do my temple work?

It seems to me that the the saying "Families are forever" really means "Some families can be forever"?

[pam]

Not doing temple work doesn't give them the opportunity to accept the gospel and receive that ordinance in the next life. Would you want to at least deprive them of that opportunity?

[pam]

Jesus Christ will be the final judge. He will know of their life circumstances, he will know the desires of their heart. He will make the final decision. Many have already accepted the gospel and are waiting and begging us to do their work for them.

[bmy-]

Not doing temple work doesn't give them the opportunity to accept the gospel and receive that ordinance in the next life. Would you want to at least deprive them of that opportunity?

I was under the impression that the people in spirit prison would be ministered to by the spirits in paradise? What I'm getting at.. is that if the gospel is not accepted during this mortal probation -- sealing ordinances do not matter. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom "will live separately and singly forever".

Again.. I hope I'm misunderstanding this. Either way.. it is what it is.. regardless of how I feel about it (but it helps to talk and examine it from other angles).

[pam]

What I'm getting at.. is that if the gospel is not accepted during this mortal probation -- sealing ordinances do not matter.

But do we have the right to make that decision? We are not the final judge.

[pam]

What is your definition of spirit prison?

[bmy-]

What is your definition of spirit prison?

Where those who have not accepted the gospel in this life dwell once they have passed on. I would think that the wicked and such would also be in this area.

But do we have the right to make that decision? We are not the final judge.

I didn't make the decision, I'm just going off what I read.. it startled me a little bit.

[pam]

Where those who have not accepted the gospel in this life dwell once they have passed on. I would think that the wicked and such would also be in this area.

I didn't make the decision, I'm just going off what I read.. it startled me a little bit.

Meant that in a general sense..not specifically you. I think we need to trust Christ and our Heavenly Father in some things.

[pam]

Well there is part of why I see where your thoughts are coming from. That's not what the spirit prison is at all.

Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85).

[bmy-]

Meant that in a general sense..not specifically you. I think we need to trust Christ and our Heavenly Father in some things.

Me too -- it's tough for me Especially when I read things contrary to what I had believed. There must be something more to it.. or they wouldn't place such a heavy emphasis on temple work, I think.

Well there is part of why I see where your thoughts are coming from. That's not what the spirit prison is at all.

That's pretty much the same as my definition I think.

[bmy-]

Well there is part of why I see where your thoughts are coming from. That's not what the spirit prison is at all.

That's pretty much the same as my definition I think.

[avatar4321]

Yes -- it's backed up by doctrine -- but I question the interpretation. Does this say (like it sounds) that those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation (Ex: The overwhelming majority of people around us) are destined for the Terrestrial kingdom?

So what it boils down to.. is why bother with performing Baptisms for the Dead if they are not allowed to be part of eternal families? Is it just so they go to the Terrestrial kingdom instead of the Telestial?

It's late.. and I hope I read this wrong.

You really need to read D&C 137.

[pam]

Me too -- it's tough for me Especially when I read things contrary to what I had believed. There must be something more to it.. or they wouldn't place such a heavy emphasis on temple work, I think.

That's pretty much the same as my definition I think.

Not entirely..Those that didn't have the opportunity to learn about the gospel will have the wonderful opportunity to be taught it. It is then again up to us to do the temple work. So those that accept it can receive that ordinance of baptism. No one can enter the celestial kingdom without that ordinance.

[bmy-]

You really need to read D&C 137.

Unfortunately.. I have. The part I bolded explains why it's not applicable (to everyone).

"Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God"

[bmy-]

Not entirely..Those that didn't have the opportunity to learn about the gospel will have the wonderful opportunity to be taught it. It is then again up to us to do the temple work. So those that accept it can receive that ordinance of baptism. No one can enter the celestial kingdom without that ordinance.

Thankfully. I'm not so much concerned with those who had no knowledge of the gospel.. I'm more worried about the average person (my family, truthfully) who goes to church sometimes, etc.

I think the part that trips me up is the "knowledge" of the gospel -- what exactly does that consist of? As you've said.. that's probably one of the areas where "trust" should come into play.

[pam]

I totally understand. I think sometimes we get caught up in the what if's and forget to leave some things in the hands of Christ and an ever so loving Father in Heaven.

I also understand worrying about family members.

[pam]

To add to something I said earlier..This was also on lds.org:

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2).

I bolded for emphasis.

[bmy-]

Thanks Pam -- and everyone else. I'm off to bed. Goodnight all.

[pam]

Night and sleep well.

[Moksha]

Accepting the Gospel in the after-life (going through proxy-baptism, etc) isn't enough?

That doesn't sound right to me. Seems like a bum deal. For example.. my entire family (every single person, extended family included) with the exception of myself is going to be forced to not be a part of a family and to live alone? What incentive is there to do my temple work?

It seems to me that the the saying "Families are forever" really means "Some families can be forever"?

This does seem a bit maddening for those who are not born-in-the-covenant type members. There are so many who are in the situation you are describing.

[tubaloth]

Baptism for the dead services two purposes.

1. Those that never heard the Gospel, after hearing it can now be Judged as if they heard it during there life. They gain the blessings of The Atonement.

2. Those that heard the gospel but didn't accept it for what ever reason. There second chance to accept Christ and his Atonement comes in the spirit world. These are the ones that would go to the Terrestial Kingdom. The reason we do Baptisms for the dead is because they have in a way finally accepted Christ.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom (lowest) are those that never accept Christ and are never Baptised. They are left to suffer for there own sins. They are ressurected but thats about the extent of there blessings.

Not doing Baptisms for the dead would then leave your family into the Telestial kingdom which isn't nice.

The key is we chart a course in the life. If we are heading towards Celestial Kingdom then thats the direction we well keep going after this life.

[MarginOfError]

Yes -- it's backed up by doctrine -- but I question the interpretation. Does this say (like it sounds) that those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation (Ex: The overwhelming majority of people around us) are destined for the Terrestrial kingdom?

So what it boils down to.. is why bother with performing Baptisms for the Dead if they are not allowed to be part of eternal families? Is it just so they go to the Terrestrial kingdom instead of the Telestial?

It's late.. and I hope I read this wrong.

I'll try to look up a reference, but I have a feeling that what I'm about to say is in my notes from a mission conference. Thus, I suspect it came to me from a mission president who was taught it by a Seventy, etc. For now, you can accept this as my personal interpretation since it is an interpretation that I do accept.

I'm pretty sure you're reading it wrong. My understanding is that the reference to "those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation" concerns those people who have had an opportunity to receive the gospel, rejected it, and then chosen to accept it in the spirit world. However, an "opportunity" to receive the gospel isn't as simple as having smiled at the missionaries. In order for a person to have had an opportunity to receive the gospel, he or she must have

• Been taught in their own language
• Understood the message of the gospel
• Felt the Spirit confirm it's truth

You might say that it parallels the "unpardonable sin." Those who receive a perfect and sure knowledge of the Atonement and the existence of God and the reject it are condemned Outer Darkness. On a lesser scale, those who receive a spiritual witness to the truth of the Gospel and reject it are condemned to something less than Celestial glory. Those who haven't had the full opportunity to accept it aren't held to that same standard.

Now you mentioned your family of occasional church goers. I'm not sure that I would apply this verse to them. If they still occasionally go to Church, then I don't know that I would call that rejecting the Gospel. I'd be more concerned about the verse that says that the Terrestrial Kingdom is reserved for those who were not valiant in the testimony of Christ. Please note, I don't want to pass judgment on your family, and will be more than happy to accept whatever judgment Christ makes for them. Just thinking out loud.

[bytor2112]

I'm pretty sure you're reading it wrong. My understanding is that the reference to "those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation" concerns those people who have had an opportunity to receive the gospel, rejected it, and then chosen to accept it in the spirit world. However, an "opportunity" to receive the gospel isn't as simple as having smiled at the missionaries. In order for a person to have had an opportunity to receive the gospel, he or she must have

* Been taught in their own language

* Understood the message of the gospel

* Felt the Spirit confirm it's truth

That's exactly as I understand it as well.