Can variety exist with perfection?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Can variability and variety exist with perfection?

I realize variety is a part of this world, in a fallen state. Sometimes the word variety can mean a grouping of different kinds of things. For example, I know God created various animals each of their kind. I am more curious though about the variability that exists in the same kind of creation. Holding one rose bush up to another rose bush, one can clearly see the variability. But what I am curious about is if He introduced variety into that specific "kind" or was that a feature of the fall. I am also not talking about different ages of things, such as a baby compared to an adult. You might think of it as different breeds. In other words, when God creates cattle and fowl etc. on a world, do you think he mixes it up sometimes? ... this time I'll make the cattle brown with white spots ... Or does He make the same type every time, because he does not change, He does not vary and there is only "one" form of perfection?

The reason to consider this question is because when He restores all things to their perfected, immortal state, including us by-the-way, do you think there are various models of that creation. Or does variability have no place in perfection? Why would one dog be taller or fatter than another perfect dog? Why would one perfect lion have more hair than another perfect lion? And consider resurrection, "not one hair lost" ... lost from what? ...lost from the original creation and lost by the fall, right? A restoration is to bring it back to the way it was when it was first created.

My leaning is that there are not different models for perfection, there is only one way, one type, one image. And it seems the closer one is to perfection, the less variable one is. For example, Jesus being like God in every way, even His image. I ponder this. Please don't rail me for these questions, they are just questions.

So the basic question again is can variability or variety exist with perfection?

The Webster's definitions of perfection are "lacking in no essential detail" and "being entirely without fault or defect" and "faithfully reproducing the original."

[Misshalfway]

I have a hard time seeing that God would create all the variety and beauty and individuality in the world only to sanitize all of in the process of sanctification and exhaltation. I think that rather becoming "one" with God and even becoming like God will look like a perfect marriage of variety and perfection.

[NeuroTypical]

I've interacted with people with severe mental handicapps on occasion. Some of these folks have such unique spirits, from sweet and gentle to funny and spunky, I really hesitate to consider them losing their uniqueness just because their physical and mental burdens are lifted.

In other words, not only does it not matter where the spots are on a perfect cow, I think we can expect a very wide variety of personalities in heaven.

What's the fun in being perfect if you're the same as everyone else?

LM

[will227457]

there will be variety...if not ill take a pass....

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have a hard time seeing that God would create all the variety and beauty and individuality in the world only to sanitize all of in the process of sanctification and exhaltation. I think that rather becoming "one" with God and even becoming like God will look like a perfect marriage of variety and perfection.

But see, that's the question for me, did God create that variety (not talking about the various "kinds") or did the variety (meaning different shapes sizes colors etc.) occur as a result of the fall?

[Misshalfway]

Well, I think natures fell as a result of the fall. But it is clear to me that the garden was a very diverse and beautiful place filled with plants and animals in all of their varieties. The Lion won't sit down with the lamb for a while as the fall made the lamb dinner, but I don't think that the beauty of the animal itself is in question.

[OneEternalSonata]

Yes, absolutely.

“These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens” (Jesus the Christ, p. 32)

What makes them distinct? To me, Talmage wouldn't be redundant here by saying separate and distinct if their separation was all that made them so. In my opinion, being perfect in love, mercy, grace, etc. doesn't mean we will all express or use those attributes in exactly the same manner. =)

[Seminarysnoozer]

I've interacted with people with severe mental handicapps on occasion. Some of these folks have such unique spirits, from sweet and gentle to funny and spunky, I really hesitate to consider them losing their uniqueness just because their physical and mental burdens are lifted.

In other words, not only does it not matter where the spots are on a perfect cow, I think we can expect a very wide variety of personalities in heaven.

What's the fun in being perfect if you're the same as everyone else?

LM

I wasn't talking about various personalities per se, as I believe that is a function of the spirit, as you say "unique spirits." And the development of the spiritual perfection will take a very long time, I believe. All those lessons learned will be to their benefit in the next life. I was referring more to the change that occurs in the process of the fall and subsequently in the resurrection. But even then, after one reaches spiritual perfection many eons from now, there is no reason to believe that one perfect being would be more spunky or gentle or funny than another perfect being. I don't look at it as loosing their uniqueness but having a fullness of all the talents and abilities possible. 100% looks like 100%, the only way you can have uniqueness is when it is less than 100%.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, I think natures fell as a result of the fall. But it is clear to me that the garden was a very diverse and beautiful place filled with plants and animals in all of their varieties. The Lion won't sit down with the lamb for a while as the fall made the lamb dinner, but I don't think that the beauty of the animal itself is in question.

I tried to make it clear too, in as few words as I could, that I wasn't taking about the various "kinds" of animals and plants. I agree, it was beautiful with various "kinds." I am proposing the variability amongst the same "kind" happened after the fall. I think there is a difference between various species and variability amongst a certain species, just like there was only one human (male and female) form.

The other premise is that God created everything before the fall, He technically did not create everything that came after the fall, those things came about after their reproductive ability of their kinds.

[Seminarysnoozer]

there will be variety...if not ill take a pass....

You are right there is a place for variety; 1 Corinthians 15: 41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." or D&C 76:98

Stars differ and therefore have variety.

[Misshalfway]

I honestly don't think their is one "mold" for the ressurected and refined. I think that I will be the best me and you will be the best you.

If I was taught and prepared and developed talents in the pre earth life and in earth life ....it would seem to me that perfection would be the perfect expression of all of those talents and capacities. I would think that variation would be a given and that this is part of what defines perfection inside of exhaltation.

[Traveler]

I wasn't talking about various personalities per se, as I believe that is a function of the spirit, as you say "unique spirits." And the development of the spiritual perfection will take a very long time, I believe. All those lessons learned will be to their benefit in the next life. I was referring more to the change that occurs in the process of the fall and subsequently in the resurrection. But even then, after one reaches spiritual perfection many eons from now, there is no reason to believe that one perfect being would be more spunky or gentle or funny than another perfect being. I don't look at it as loosing their uniqueness but having a fullness of all the talents and abilities possible. 100% looks like 100%, the only way you can have uniqueness is when it is less than 100%.

The main problem is that we are trying to apply a modern concept to ancient scriptures rather than understanding the ancient scriptures. The ancient concept of "perfect" is the same meaning as the ancient idea of being whole. It is also interesting to me that the ancient concept of being holy also meant to be whole.

I like the ancient ideas. That someone that is evil or sinful is that way because they have ignored or left something out. This way a person that is saved is whole and complete; they have “it” all - with nothing left out rather than the sinner is that way because they are accepting or open of something un-righteous. Evil is really just the process of eliminating something important.

Often we get the concept that repentance is just getting rid of the "bad" and overlook the idea that repentance is really about including that which is good.

Let me make one example - overcoming pornography is not so much about not looking at soiled images and thinking of soiled images as it is learning to fill one's mind with wholesome and good images and thoughts. (note that the word “wholesome” includes the concept of whole.)

Some may see subsets as variety - but that is a false variety.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes, absolutely.

“These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprising three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens” (Jesus the Christ, p. 32)

What makes them distinct? To me, Talmage wouldn't be redundant here by saying separate and distinct if their separation was all that made them so. In my opinion, being perfect in love, mercy, grace, etc. doesn't mean we will all express or use those attributes in exactly the same manner. =)

Yes, that means that they are not all in the same body. Which I agree. It doesn't say, though, that their bodies are different from each other in size, shape, form (except the HG of course) ... that its not the same model.

Of course there are things that make them different, one is the Father one is the son. But I believe if placed in the same setting with the same decision they would express themselves exactly the same, the scriptures say so.

When I read scriptures like; John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." It sounds to me that Jesus has no desire to do anything different than what his Father would do, to me there is no difference in their personality or actions if put in the same setting. That didn't happen, being in the same setting exactly, because they have different roles. To me, the definition of perfect means that one would use all attributes the same and in the same manner if in the same setting. Or do you think there are more than one set of attributes that could be described as perfect once the fullness of perfection has been reached (a God)?

[Misshalfway]

Evil is really just the process of eliminating something important.

That makes sense considering that darkness is the absense of light.

[Misshalfway]

To me, the definition of perfect means that one would use all attributes the same and in the same manner if in the same setting. Or do you think there are more than one set of attributes that could be described as perfect once the fullness of perfection has been reached (a God)?

Well, part of this whole perfection thing is obedience to eternal law. I think that expressions of obedience will be the same. But I don't see exhaltation as joining some cyborg of sameness. I am not sure it stands to reason that because the Son is like the Father in exactness that our perfection will measure to those exact specifications. I am not sure such is necessary. Exhaltation won't exactly invite all of us into the Godhead so....I think that detail is immaterial.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would think it impossible for perfection to exist without variety.

Variety = choice = agency.

no variety = no choice = no agency.

Mankind makes mass-produced identical cookie cutter junk - mankind is fallen.

God makes snowflakes, trees, leaves on trees, people - no two are alike.

infinity lies in diversity, in variety.

Again, I am talking about perfection. Of course variety is plentiful in a world of corruption, which is not perfect. The process of getting to perfection also requires variety, I wasn't proposing that either, I agree with those concepts. But, I was asking about variety in a state of perfection.

and comparing trees to people ... I am not talking about various "kinds" of life.

The only two people that I am aware God created in such a way as to be perfect that we know about are Adam and Eve. Even Jesus was not "perfect" in the sense that he did not have an immortal perfected body. There are writings of the "first Adam" and the "second Adam" and even there it is not a fair comparison because one is comparing an immortal body to a mortal body. So, when you say no two people are alike .... what two perfected beings are you talking about? I am not talking about corrupted states, there is variety in corrupted states, I have no doubt to that.

You say "infinity lies in diversity", I don't know. I think God is the same as he was, as he is now and as he will always be ... that does not sound diverse but is definitely infinite.

[Misshalfway]

You say "infinity lies in diversity", I don't know. I think God is the same as he was, as he is now and as he will always be ... that does not sound diverse but is definitely infinite.

But part of God's state of being is also eternal increase which in my mind is infinity. I would also say that his capacities are infinite as well.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not sure it stands to reason that because the Son is like the Father in exactness that our perfection will measure to those exact specifications. I am not sure such is necessary. Exhaltation won't exactly invite all of us into the Godhead so....I think that detail is immaterial.

Really? I thought that was the promise, that all He has we can have, that we can become like Him. So, what is meant by "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."? I am getting the impression a lot of people believe that is saying just to be sinless. I guess I'll have to set my sights a little lower then .... I was going for the whole enchilada, and I thought most LDS are. Isn't everyone, in every kingdom of glory sinless once they arrive at their kingdom of glory? So, I guess I have to specify, then to continue the conversation - Is there variety in the highest level of the celestial kingdom?

I realize that exaltation isn't the end of our progress and so we won't be invited into the Godhead at that moment, but isn't that the promise that we can become like our Heavenly Father (and Mother)? And if you make it to exaltation the body we get at the resurrection will never leave us, never dissolve even though I agree we still have much more development to go through. Somehow this shifted from talking about physical creations and variety to spiritual development, I am not proposing anything different from what you are saying from a spiritual development view. Unless you think there are also physical changes to the perfected body that occur over time, that's an interesting thought, maybe?

But even then it seems to all the lines of variety come together at some point. The goal is one. If one makes it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom I can't see how that person would obtain a perfected incorruptible body that would be any different than Gods. If you think so, why do you think it would be a different model or style?

[Seminarysnoozer]

But part of God's state of being is also eternal increase which in my mind is infinity. I would also say that his capacities are infinite as well.

But see to me, that discussion is different than a discussion of the appearance of the body and the lack of variability of the body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I honestly don't think their is one "mold" for the ressurected and refined. I think that I will be the best me and you will be the best you.

If I was taught and prepared and developed talents in the pre earth life and in earth life ....it would seem to me that perfection would be the perfect expression of all of those talents and capacities. I would think that variation would be a given and that this is part of what defines perfection inside of exhaltation.

I agree that there is variation in the degree of development and that's why I said earlier I am not talking about the variation of comparing a baby to an adult, for example. Like comparing the mustard seed to the mustard plant. But if you were to compare the mustard plant to the mustard plant, you think there would be variability in perfection?

I think that is the underlying nature of the separation of the kingdoms and I think the higher you are placed in those kingdoms the more alike you are. Just like the idea of stars being at various strengths and the sun being one. Part of the determination of God placing us into a kingdom is based on our desires, what is in our heart, the natures of our spirits that you speak about being there from pre-earthly life, meaning we will be with people who have similar desires. I agree though that those similarities will be more and more varied the further one is away from the celestial kingdom. Its that thought that makes me wonder about the opposition (seemingly) between perfection and variety.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me ask it this way specifically to help me understand this fear of lack of variability. Why would God give, at the resurrection, bodies to two individuals that are assigned to the same level of glory that differ in height for example? A perfected glorified body, made of different material than what we have here on earth, that is permanent, why would one be taller or shorter than another? What would that variability be based on? There is some randomness that is out of Gods control? or would God just be random for the sake of randomness and variability?

I don't understand a God who would do something without purpose. I realize I don't know Gods ways but on the flip side, it seems that a lot of people are sure its the other way, variability. I just don't understand the purpose of variability (of the body, not intelligences) in the next life. Other than you think it is related to beauty somehow (unlike the uniformity of synchronized swimming for example which is just plain ugly - joking), why would one person be shorter than another in the next life?

[Moksha]

But see, that's the question for me, did God create that variety (not talking about the various "kinds") or did the variety (meaning different shapes sizes colors etc.) occur as a result of the fall?

While I like metaphorical answers, I will tell you what I know. These differences are caused by genetic variation - a different sequencing in the four amino acids. Variety is built into all life. It is an essential part of the evolutionary process, started by God, that has brought us to the point of asking and answering this very question.

Seeking one eternal archetype for all things is but a rhetorical activity that will not lead you to a real understanding of God's handiwork.

:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

While I like metaphorical answers, I will tell you what I know. These differences are caused by genetic variation - a different sequencing in the four amino acids. Variety is built into all life. It is an essential part of the evolutionary process, started by God, that has brought us to the point of asking and answering this very question.

Seeking one eternal archetype for all things is but a rhetorical activity that will not lead you to a real understanding of God's handiwork.

:)

Its nucleic acids that code for amino acids but I get your point. I understand the variability of the current system, genetic variations, I am postulating the lack of variability in perfect systems. I wonder if genetic variations are part of the "corruption." And once we put off corruption for incorruption there are no more genetic variations.

I don't think God would build something that would randomly fall apart or change or mutate, it seems unlikely to me that variability was built into the system. More likely, God would "build" into the system immortality, which He did in Adam and Eve. After the "building" of the plants and the animals came Adam and Eve and that was the end of his "building", He didn't "build" anything else. ...unless you call how Jesus was formed "building."

I think if one is exactly like God in every way, that is the only way to really fully understand His ways and His handiwork.

If seeking one eternal archetype does not lead you to an understanding, how many archetypes are we supposed to seek?

[Traveler]

Let me ask it this way specifically to help me understand this fear of lack of variability. Why would God give, at the resurrection, bodies to two individuals that are assigned to the same level of glory that differ in height for example? A perfected glorified body, made of different material than what we have here on earth, that is permanent, why would one be taller or shorter than another? What would that variability be based on? There is some randomness that is out of Gods control? or would God just be random for the sake of randomness and variability?

I don't understand a God who would do something without purpose. I realize I don't know Gods ways but on the flip side, it seems that a lot of people are sure its the other way, variability. I just don't understand the purpose of variability (of the body, not intelligences) in the next life. Other than you think it is related to beauty somehow (unlike the uniformity of synchronized swimming for example which is just plain ugly - joking), why would one person be shorter than another in the next life?

Let me ask you a question - would you refuse to worship G-d or think he is "perfect" if you found out he was only - say 5 feet 2 inches tall?

The Traveler

Edited October 23, 2009 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me ask you a question - would you refuse to worship G-d or think he is "perfect" if you found out he was only - say 5 feet 2 inches tall?

The Traveler

Of course not. Why would you ask that?