Can variety exist with perfection?

[Traveler]

Of course not. Why would you ask that?

Because you asked the following:

Let me ask it this way specifically to help me understand this fear of lack of variability. Why would God give, at the resurrection, bodies to two individuals that are assigned to the same level of glory that differ in height for example?

The point is that often we make too much of things concerning our self that really do not matter. One variance that may help us understand more about eternal things is gender and that eternal "perfection" is not something for an individual gender. We tend to view things from a "selfish" perspective when it comes to glory and salvation. I submit that being Celestial has little to do with the selfishness of individuality.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Because you asked the following:

The point is that often we make too much of things concerning our self that really do not matter. One variance that may help us understand more about eternal things is gender and that eternal "perfection" is not something for an individual gender. We tend to view things from a "selfish" perspective when it comes to glory and salvation. I submit that being Celestial has little to do with the selfishness of individuality.

The Traveler

OK, good, thanks ... we are on the same page then. That also, in part, is my point. I think we get hung up on being individual here and it makes it hard to imagine a world that lacks individuality or variability.

Just a few weeks ago I asked a friend of mine at church where she found such a beautiful dress. Without me telling you her name, I think I can say this without it being gossip ... but, she wouldn't tell me. Later I found out she told another friend that she didn't tell me because she didn't want me wearing the same dress to church. Honestly, I have felt the same way too sometimes ... and I have probably done the same thing to others (I've repented). We protect our identity and even do things to stand out a bit, color hair, a new dress/style, jewelry. That's exactly why I think this discussion has relevance to how we live our lives here. Another friend didn't let anyone see her remodeled kitchen until it was completely done because she didn't want anyone else in the neighborhood to do it exactly like hers, there were a few other people doing remodels at the same time.

I like your last statement so I will repeat it here, "being Celestial has little to do with the selfishness of individuality."

[Moksha]

I don't think God would build something that would randomly fall apart or change or mutate, it seems unlikely to me that variability was built into the system. More likely, God would "build" into the system immortality, which He did in Adam and Eve. After the "building" of the plants and the animals came Adam and Eve and that was the end of his "building", He didn't "build" anything else. ...unless you call how Jesus was formed "building."

The fact that we are mortal men doomed to die, would suggest that 'immutable and immortal' idea exists only in another reality. The building of plants and animals was through the lengthy process of evolution which God set in motion. Throughout the lifetime of these entities, the cycle of being born, procreating and dying is constant.

Your mention about the forming or "building" of Jesus was an interesting thought. The human gestational process is ultimately a building process, whose end product is both unique and individual and imbued by God with a spirit, thus giving each part and tag of that build a certain sacredness.

If seeking one eternal archetype does not lead you to an understanding, how many archetypes are we supposed to seek?

I think the eternal archetype of God does lead us to our understanding. As for as those other archetypes, I assume they are all stowed away safely in our collective unconscious.

:)

[Vort]

there will be variety...if not ill take a pass....

How?

[Vort]

Let me ask it this way specifically to help me understand this fear of lack of variability. Why would God give, at the resurrection, bodies to two individuals that are assigned to the same level of glory that differ in height for example? A perfected glorified body, made of different material than what we have here on earth, that is permanent, why would one be taller or shorter than another?

The implication is clear: If resurrected and perfected beings vary in height, then height per se is not a characteristic of perfection.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The implication is clear: If resurrected and perfected beings vary in height, then height per se is not a characteristic of perfection.

The height, weight, muscle mass etc, for that body is decided upon and "designed" or it is a random variable process. And if it is a chosen, designed thing, then my suspicion is that it would be the same choice every time. Otherwise, for me, it seems it would be random and I can't picture God doing random things.

[Vort]

The choices are not limited to "perfect" or "random". I could well imagine there could be a perfectable characteristic could exist within a range rather than only a given value.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

I would say yes there is a great deal of Variety and Beauty within perfection. For this I am really excited to see the New Jerusalem when it is built.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would say yes there is a great deal of Variety and Beauty within perfection. For this I am really excited to see the New Jerusalem when it is built.

The word 'variety' I realize now is not the right word for the premise of this discussion as it is too much confused with a number of different species. The questions and ponderings pertained more to the variability in any given "kind" in a perfected state, i.e at the resurrection.

The variability that we know about now in biology comes from the genetic process, chromosomal crossover, the whole recombination process. Or genetic mutations, inversions, deletions, duplications etc.. Since there won't be any of that as all of that is as a result of the fall, what would all the creatures of any given "kind" look like if they had all the same unchanged DNA. I'm not trying to say there is DNA in the next life, I don't know. I am just saying the variability that we now know comes from being in a corruptible state.

[bytor2112]

All I can say is that I hope that I like mushrooms and onions......because I don't now, but wish I did. Everyone seems to love mushrooms and onions....I feel like I am really missing out.

[Moksha]

All I can say is that I hope that I like mushrooms and onions......because I don't now, but wish I did. Everyone seems to love mushrooms and onions....I feel like I am really missing out.

All the more reason to hold dear to those turnips and rutabagas.

[Seminarysnoozer]

When I think of taking a person, and making them perfect, I don't think of changing what they look like into some barbie doll. I think remove zits, take away sickness, make them strong, perfect eyesight, perfect hearing, perfect intellect, etc. etc. But to say one eye color is perfect, or one hair color, or a certain height - one height is no more perfect than another. One color of hair is no more perfect than another. Perfect is alive, healthy, growing, without disease, without blemish..... but it is not a bunch of barbie dolls.

I don't know what perfect looks like. I am in no way trying to suggest the features of perfect, I have no ability to suggest that. (except maybe color - - > 'bright beyond all description') What I am trying to suggest is that variability amongst human kind or any other "kind" comes from the fall and science explains that, in part, by genetics and variable environments. If those variables are not part of the next like, in other words you take away the genetics and you take away the variable environments for any given kingdom (with maybe the exception of the telestial kingdom as it varies as the stars vary) WHERE IS THE VARIABLE?

If one thinks there is variability, even if there is a 'range' as Vort put it, then you are saying that God varies or His methods vary. If you think God is going to make us look different in any given kingdom, please tell me what you think that variable is based in. Is it just a random process? Okay, you get this body, and you get this one ... like picking clothes off a rack? Where does that idea come from? That's the part I am stuck on, I can't imagine a God that gives us an Eternal body, that never dissolves with an uncontrolled variable attached to it. If one says the variable is 'glory' I suppose that is fine, I can somewhat wrap my mind around that idea, but even then for any specific level of glory the bodies would look the same then.

Why is the idea of all looking the same so appalling too? I don't understand that. Are you saying identical twins hate the fact that they look alike? Some might say that, I'm sure you can find some, but all the identical twins I've ever run across or know seem perfectly happy with having a brother or sister looking exactly like them. What is more beautiful to you, the stars or the sun? If one likes the stars more because they vary over the plain 'oneness' of the sun, I guess that's their choice to make.

You said taking away disease is part of the perfecting process. To me that alone, points towards 'one perfect body.' Many diseases come from the environment and of course those will be taken away but looking at those that are caused by the design of our bodies or the make up of our genes, removing all of those, brings you closer to making us all look the same. I'll give you one example (I think there are many); obstructive sleep apnea. People that are taller have a greater distance between the base of the nose and the trachea making the tissue between those two points more floppy and has been shown to increase the rate of obstructive sleep apnea. People that have a short distance between those two points have crowding of the muscles of the throat, the tongue and soft palate and that increases the risk for sleep apnea. There is an ideal point between those two that reduces the risk for sleep apnea. I am not trying to say everyone who is short or everyone who is tall gets sleep apnea, I'm talking about risk. And I don't know if we are even going to be breathing in the next life, I suspect not, since we don't have blood. But, in any case, this is just an example of how body shape, size, plays a role in disease ... if that is part of your definition of perfection (to take away disease). By removing diseases alone, that process has already made us look a lot alike.

So, if you think you know where this variable comes from, please share. It's not genes, it's not environment, so where? Some random rolling of the dice? or the whimsical nature of God? I don't think so. So.... I don't see how variability and perfection mix.

[Ezequiel]

I believe that since we were never equal to begin with, that perfection will vary from person to person.

I dont have anything to back that up with, other than we all have different personalities now and will be raised with them just the same. But I also feel that since there are different attributes that we all have that are stronger in our personality, than with other people, that perfection will be the best you that you can be - and still remain you. Just a polished version of it.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Ezequiel

[Dravin]

9 is a perfect square, so is 16. They are different. :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that since we were never equal to begin with, that perfection will vary from person to person.

I dont have anything to back that up with, other than we all have different personalities now and will be raised with them just the same. But I also feel that since there are different attributes that we all have that are stronger in our personality, than with other people, that perfection will be the best you that you can be - and still remain you. Just a polished version of it.

I can see that with the exception of the status of "no end to one's increase." Unless, you think the body somehow changes over time too. And realizing too that the closer you get to perfection the less we vary even in our personalities. And once we start acquiring all the talents and abilities possible there is less variability. As an example, if I enjoy music in this life and have a talent for it and my husband doesn't, eventually, in a world of no-end to our development, he will enjoy music just as much as I do. In a world where there is a limit to ones increase then I can see how those variable traits are static. That is why I raise the question can variability exist with perfection? but maybe I should ask, is there less and less variability the closer we approach perfection?

[Seminarysnoozer]

9 is a perfect square, so is 16. They are different. :)

Yes, but 3 x 3 is always 9. I am not talking about comparing different things. I am talking about a variable that has no significance. If one says, for example, that height doesn't matter when our perfect bodies are restored than why would it vary. To me, especially when one says a feature doesn't matter like height or weight, then I have to question where that variability comes from - some random process or God feeling like making it this way or that way in a whimsical way. Or is that process out of His control. If one does not believe that God does things in a whimsical or random way then I think you will not have insignificant variables in the production of our perfected bodies.

Why does this matter? Because I think a lot of people in this world go out of their way to try to stand out, to be different, unique, which I think is a direction away from God. Or they may be proud of their looks. I believe there are many examples of this in the Book of Mormon about a certain group trying to change their appearance with jewelry and clothes to stand above another group. Like Jesus, our example, who didn't care about the clothes He was wearing from one day to the next. If everyone followed Jesus example perfectly, which of course is just theoretical, there would be no fashion industry.

Matthew 6:31 "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

[Justice]

Without having read all the posts, I'll attempt to join in, hopefully without sounding like a fool.

My wife was icing a cake the other day and when she was finished she said, "perfect!"

I noticed something I didn't quite think was right so I moved it a little, looked at her and smiled.

She moved it back and said, "That's how I wanted it."

I think it all depends on your definition of perfect. I think "as you intended, finished, or complete" is a good definition to attach to God's perfection. We can all be different, yet complete and fulfilled... or perfect.

[Justice]

To go a little deeper...

You can find perfection in variance if you look. We have all these colors... each beautiful in their own way. They each fulfill their purpose and complete or perfect the color spectrum.

I think covering all variances is just as perfect as having all varibles contained in any one thing. There is joy in difference as long as we overcome the natural man's pride and ignorance of difference. Eveny and prejudice are resultants of pride. When one prides himself on his "perfections" he notices a lack or difference in others.

When you hear someone tell you a story about something good happening to them, are you generally happy for them? Or, do you secretly wish it had happened to you?

We can be happy for ourselves and happy for others. That completes us. Being happy and please over my children is one of the greatest feelings I've known. Yet, they are different than I am.

[Dravin]

I was being facetious SeminarySnoozer.

To be slightly less so. As we know that we will carry variableness in our personality from our past life (I know that this isn't what you are talking about), we may vary well carry other traits of variableness with us, and unless those variations are somehow imperfect there is no reason to perfect them (Is 5' 8" more perfect than 5' 8.5"?). One question is was the Savior different after his resurrection? And how so? Was he the same and he just happened to carry the semblance of perfection throughout his mortal life? Of course later on he is described as having white hair, and most paintings from LDS art that depicting the first vision depict essentially twins, though they don't depict other resurrected beings as such, and ultimately art says more about the artist's conceptions rather than truth.

Where is Joseph Smith when you need him, he had ample experience with seeing various perfected beings. If Jesus, Moses, Peter, James, Moroni and Elijah were all spitting images of each other that would answer a lot. :)

Edited October 25, 2009 by Dravin

[Vort]

I was being facetious SeminarySnoozer.

To be slightly less so. As we know that we will carry variableness in our personality from our past life (I know that this isn't what you are talking about), we may vary well carry other traits of variableness with us, and unless those variations are somehow imperfect there is no reason to perfect them (Is 5' 8" more perfect than 5' 8.5"?). One question is was the Savior different after his resurrection? And how so? Was he the same and he just happened to carry the semblance of perfection throughout his mortal life? Of course later on he is described as having white hair, and most paintings from LDS art that depicting the first vision depict essentially twins, though they don't depict other resurrected beings as such, and ultimately art says more about the artist's conceptions rather than truth.

Where is Joseph Smith when you need him, he had ample experience with seeing various perfected beings. If Jesus, Moses, Peter, James, Moroni and Elijah were all spitting images of each other that would answer a lot. :)

Furthermore, our perfect Savior has visible, palpable imperfections in his hands, feet, and side.

Methinks "perfection" does not mean what we assume it to mean.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Without having read all the posts, I'll attempt to join in, hopefully without sounding like a fool.

My wife was icing a cake the other day and when she was finished she said, "perfect!"

I noticed something I didn't quite think was right so I moved it a little, looked at her and smiled.

She moved it back and said, "That's how I wanted it."

I think it all depends on your definition of perfect. I think "as you intended, finished, or complete" is a good definition to attach to God's perfection. We can all be different, yet complete and fulfilled... or perfect.

"Alma 11: 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame ..."

I think everyone agrees that restoration means to bring back to some previous state, like when you restore a piece of furniture. If there is a restoration back to its perfect frame you would have to ask when did that perfect frame occur that it can be restored back to?

Either, like Justice is trying to suggest it occurs here in the variability of how one is born into this world and all of those characteristics resulting from all of one's ancestors imperfect decisions and lives culminating in one's current mix of genes is its 'perfect frame'. Suggesting the measure of one's fullness is based on physical characteristics obtained in this life. (Thanks mom and dad and grandma, grandpa and great great great great great great great grandfather who decided to travel the seas to attack my great great great great great great great grandmothers village for all the genes you passed on to me.)

Or you believe that there was only one "perfect frame" in which it is to be brought back to, Adam and Eve. As God is the first and the last, (but not anything in between) in the end we will all be like the first. A few verses before the scripture above it is explained; "Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;" All the alterations that occurred in between are not of God and therefore it needs to be restored to the way He created it. That is why all these corruptions and changes to His creation that even result in genes that cause disease or lead to a predisposition for problems such as; alcoholism, homosexuality, schizophrenia, major depression, myotonic dystrophy, cystic fibrosis and on and on and on are things that happened in between and are not the beginning or the end. It's the same state of the genes that causes variability in appearance.

I personally don't think the scriptures were using the cutesy form of the word perfect, when referring to "perfect frame." Like when you would say, " I found the perfect dress for the dance next week." The "perfect frame" referred to in the scriptures unlike a "perfect dress" will have to be worn from there on out, forever, so it better be perfect for all occasions and purposes, having nothing lacking and be able to reach the fullness of not just its creation on earth but the "fullness" of eternity, God-like.

[Justice]

Well I guess that's what I'm saying. Yet I do believe we don't have to be the same to be perfect. I believe being free of sin and the desire to sin, and to only desire to do good contionually (like the converted people of King Benjamin) constitutes perfection in God's eyes. We don't all have to be exactly like Adam to be perfect. We don't all have to have blue eyes to be perfect.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well I guess that's what I'm saying. Yet I do believe we don't have to be the same to be perfect. I believe being free of sin and the desire to sin, and to only desire to do good contionually (like the converted people of King Benjamin) constitutes perfection in God's eyes. We don't all have to be exactly like Adam to be perfect. We don't all have to have blue eyes to be perfect.

Maybe I said it and didn't realize it, but I wasn't trying to say that having a perfect body is a requirement for perfection as I realize the perfecting process is mostly a spiritual one. I am more talking about after judgment day. I think though the body is certainly required to reach the highest level's full potential, otherwise we wouldn't need to be resurrected. I think of it as more of a tool to perform the duties we will have in that particular kingdom, and at the highest levels that 'tool' will look just like God's as it will eventually have to perform all that God does. I suppose if one feels the body does nothing more than cover the spirit then it wouldn't matter. Or, maybe people think the body is just some reward like a trophy we get for being a part of this life that serves no purpose other than aesthetic pleasures. If that is what it is, a tool, why would one have different features than another?

And, I think we have the color thing already figured out - bright beyond all description.

[Misshalfway]

I think our earthly measures are faulty. I don't think we, in our current human state, can comprehend what exhaltation will look like or feel like.

It seems to me that perfection is a process that for now we need lots of Son of God help to accomplish. I think there is beauty in that state of being perfect in Christ. In that sense, we can acheive perfection here in this life because Christ makes up the difference. If my understanding of this process and eternal progression is right then I would think the process is moving or shifting one thing after the other until we are righteously independent. Surely that process can't happen completely outside of the atonement and outside of exhaltation. I guess what I am trying to say is that the answer is inside the process, not inside the actual acheivement or end result of process.

[michaelx]

Another scenario is that in the pre-mortal world our spiritual bodies inherited the DNA of our heavenly parents, with variation of appearance but that variance is in degrees of perfection and beauty. In this mortal realm we inherit the DNA of our physical bodies from our imperfect earthly parents and the variance is in degrees of imperfection. The implication being much of our appearance may be quite different in the very short time span we are here in our second estate compared to the eons we lived in the pre-mortal existence. In the resurrection our spirits will organize the physical body after the manner and full glory of the spirit itself. Anyway I hope this is the case because many of us didn't win the genetic lottery in this life.