Does God Meddle with Free Will?

[Snow]

A few months back there was a discussion about whether, at a supplicant's request, God would intercede with a prospective employer to cause that employer to hire the supplicant when, without God's intervention, the employer would not have hired the supplicant, but rather hired someone else.

Simply put, is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?

[Justice]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but knowing that God knows all things and knows what's best for me, I hope and even pray that He intercedes on my behalf and infringes on my agency to do what is best for me, if necessary.

[prisonchaplain]

This may come close--I know (by faith and some incidental coincidences) that God led me to my current job.

[Gatorman]

Is God providing an extra burning of the heart to guide someone removing their free agency? Could they still choose to ignore that prompting? Remember, the other part of that discussion was why doesn't he answer some prayers? Why doesn't he stop the murderer, etc? Perhaps, he does intercede for us, but, the individual's agency allow them to condemn themselves by ignoring it.

[BenRaines]

If I understand Snow's question it is not so much about our free will but that of the employer. Our desire being the job, Does God cause the employer to hire you, losing employer's agency?

Ben Raines

[sixpacktr]

I know that it does happen, as it has happened in our family.

Does that therefore show that God is manipulating another's agency to grant us an answer to a prayer? I don't know that manipulation is the right word. Softening another's heart, perhaps. Giving them inspiration/revelation, perhaps. Steering them in a course that meets the intended result, perhaps.

[tubaloth]

Interesting question. Really I don't think we do know, or can we fully know how God works. I always looked at it more that God points out things that might be missed. The employeer still makes the choice. So in the end God is just giving more knoweldge or True to the person. The agency is still there, and the will of the person isn't touched.

  sixpacktr said:

Steering them in a course that meets the intended result, perhaps.

I don't know if God steers people. (I know what you mean). Even the idea that God can steer people for my blessing does seem strange. Because then that manes God could steer me.

[joofob]

I think you need to be careful in drawing the line for what is influencing and what is forcing. If God influences the employer he is not forcing or making the choice for the employer.

Your scenario only suggests influencing and if one insists "manipulating" the employer. At any time the employer can still choose to hire or not hire the applicant. He retains his agency in full, but the circumstances in which he makes the decision are altered.

The scriptures are FULL of such examples and many here I am sure can provide such experiences in their own lives. I am not aware of any event where God has ever forced someone to do something. I don't believe he ever would, nor do I see how he could lol. Really how do you force someone to do something? They always have a choice between actions no matter how overbearing the circumstances may be. The only conceivable way I can think of where someone is absolutely forced into doing something is by a means beyond possession, which I am not aware exists. I could be wrong, but hey you would need a pretty convincing argument to show that someone can be forced in an absolute way where their agency is void. The only thing that could potentially be associated with such an example is by stretching the doctrine of influencing spirits, i.e. the devil can have power over you, but even that is lacking because one must permit the devil to influence and enslave themselves in his grasp. Anyway if anyone has some pretty convincing arguments Im down to check them out

[sixpacktr]

  tubaloth said:

I don't know if God steers people. (I know what you mean). Even the idea that God can steer people for my blessing does seem strange. Because then that manes God could steer me.

It is an interesting question, but I know that I HAVE been steered to make certain decisions. My agency wasn't taken from me--far from it. But I had certain feelings that made my original choice seem wrong. And in another instance a friend of a friend had a lead for a job, and then I ended up here, where we were desparately needed (along with about 4 other families in our ward). In another instance, we were prayed into another ward.

Perhaps it is different for us as Christians that want to do God's will. We lay our agency before God, saying basically 'do with me what you will' and then he gives it back (obviously) but does put us where we're needed, either in a job, a move, a calliing, etc.

[Seminarysnoozer]

  Snow said:

A few months back there was a discussion about whether, at a supplicant's request, God would intercede with a prospective employer to cause that employer to hire the supplicant when, without God's intervention, the employer would not have hired the supplicant, but rather hired someone else.

Simply put, is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?

If free agency is given by God how is manipulation of it by God not in accordance with gospel principles?

[Misshalfway]

I don't think that God forces things to happen. I think God invites people to change their hearts and their minds. I think it is a persons willingness to be changed that opens the possibilities for the miracle.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Whenever questions like this come up I refer back to these scriptures:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. -- Isaiah 55:8-9

[Traveler]

  Snow said:

A few months back there was a discussion about whether, at a supplicant's request, God would intercede with a prospective employer to cause that employer to hire the supplicant when, without God's intervention, the employer would not have hired the supplicant, but rather hired someone else.

Simply put, is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?

Excellent question Snow. I believe there are two principles in opposition that play out here. The first is the principle or possibility of freedom and the second is the principle or possibility of bondage. I could demonstrate that in mortal life we do not have nor is it possible to exercise “free will” – especially without the concept of a pre-mortal existence.

What I would like to put forward is that a large portion of our life is pre-determined before we are born. Sort of like a software program or video game that has been pre-written and that critical decisions are made at key points that have significant consequences to outcome. Therefore at these critical points it is required that decisions between possibilities are made – despite the problem that the decisions must be made not really knowing or understanding the consequences. Never-the-less we are given clues to help us discern what will bring freedom as opposed to what brings bondage.

I would point the reader to the LDS Bible dictionary at the back of the King James Version of the Bible published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In particular the Bible dictionary definition of prayer. Here we learn that there are blessings withheld in heaven and which the L-rd desires to grant but are withheld and made conditional on our asking for them.

I would suggest that the entire entry for prayer be read in the LDS Bible dictionary before drawing conclusions about the will of G-d verses the will of man and the outcome of prayer before continuing this discussion. I am very open and willing to discuss thoughts concerning this understanding of prayer and will, once this has been read.

The Traveler

Edited October 26, 2009 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

  Traveler said:

Excellent question Snow. I believe there are two principles in opposition that play out here. The first is the principle or possibility of freedom and the second is the principle or possibility of bondage. I could demonstrate that in mortal life we do not have nor is it possible to exercise “free will” – especially without the concept of a pre-mortal existence.

What I would like to put forward is that a large portion of our life is pre-determined before we are born. Sort of like a software program or video game that has been pre-written and that critical decisions are made at key points that have significant consequences to outcome. Therefore at these critical points it is required that decisions between possibilities are made – despite the problem that the decisions must be made not really knowing or understanding the consequences. Never-the-less we are given clues to help us discern what will bring freedom as opposed to what brings bondage.

Sorry, but I thought the question was confusing. I know its just me, because it seems everyone else is seeming to understand the question and even call it an excellent question. Maybe someone can clarify the point of the question then if you would be so kind as it seems Snow hasn't responded for a bit.

My impression is that the question is not asking about the nature of free agency or whether the free agency was taken away, which to me would spawn a discussion of bondage versus freedom but rather as Snow simplified in the last sentence of the original post, the question was rather God manipulates free agency and would this fit with gospel principles. And when asked that way, the answer is of course. I think a lot of responders assumed the question was whether agency was taken away. I guess I didn't see it that way, especially looking at the simplified summary of the question. If I'm wrong, sorry, I didn't understand the question. ... Maybe another way to ask the question is (Snow, tell me if I'm wrong); Can God get into someones head and make someone choose something against what they would have chosen on their own if given the same situation and options?

When someone prays for the truth and they are in the darkness where their free agency is limited, God can send the missionaries to that persons door and thus manipulate the free agency of that person. Their choices were changed by Gods intervention, and therefore manipulating free agency. (note: the question was not - was free agency taken away?) So, manipulating free agency can be a good thing. Increasing the number of choices by opening their eyes or the opposite like what happened after the apostasy.

This fits with the case in the example Snow gave. Maybe the resume was misplaced, the prayer was given, and the employer, through divine guidance realized there was another stack of resumes in a different location therefore reconsidering his/her choice and then picked the employee in the example. That wouldn't have happened if the employer's free agency wasn't manipulated, in other words, other options were open to the employer. There wasn't enough information given in the example to know, just saying that sure, God could have manipulated the employers agency.

[Traveler]

  Seminarysnoozer said:

Sorry, but I thought the question was confusing. I know its just me, because it seems everyone else is seeming to understand the question and even call it an excellent question. Maybe someone can clarify the point of the question then if you would be so kind as it seems Snow hasn't responded for a bit.

My impression is that the question is not asking about the nature of free agency or whether the free agency was taken away, which to me would spawn a discussion of bondage versus freedom but rather as Snow simplified in the last sentence of the original post, the question was rather God manipulates free agency and would this fit with gospel principles. And when asked that way, the answer is of course. I think a lot of responders assumed the question was whether agency was taken away. I guess I didn't see it that way, especially looking at the simplified summary of the question. If I'm wrong, sorry, I didn't understand the question. ... Maybe another way to ask the question is (Snow, tell me if I'm wrong); Can God get into someones head and make someone choose something against what they would have chosen on their own if given the same situation and options?

When someone prays for the truth and they are in the darkness where their free agency is limited, God can send the missionaries to that persons door and thus manipulate the free agency of that person. Their choices were changed by Gods intervention, and therefore manipulating free agency. (note: the question was not - was free agency taken away?) So, manipulating free agency can be a good thing. Increasing the number of choices by opening their eyes or the opposite like what happened after the apostasy.

This fits with the case in the example Snow gave. Maybe the resume was misplaced, the prayer was given, and the employer, through divine guidance realized there was another stack of resumes in a different location therefore reconsidering his/her choice and then picked the employee in the example. That wouldn't have happened if the employer's free agency wasn't manipulated, in other words, other options were open to the employer. There wasn't enough information given in the example to know, just saying that sure, God could have manipulated the employers agency.

First off, Seminarysnoozer, it appears from you post that you have not read the definition of prayer in the LDS bible dictionary that I suggested. Since you have not read let me quote one part that may help you:

“Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of G-d, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that G-d is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.”

The reason that Snow’s question is so good is because it highlights some of our misunderstandings of prayer, individual will and answers to prayer.

The Traveler

[cleanvisit]

I just attended a Stake Conference in which President Eyring spoke. He talked about this exact same question. He said that while finishing up his Doctorate Degree, he was one of 8 professors working at a prestigious university. The news came that only one of the 8 would have a job in the coming months. President Eyring, a Bishop at the time, knew that he could not work on Sundays and figured that because of this, the other professors would get to keep the job over him. However, he said that the Lord made him do more than he physically thought possible in the time he had to work. Because of this great "intervention by God," as you might say, he was selected and the others lost their positions.

So, it is not so much that God intervenes and "manipulates" the free agency of others so much as it is that God "qualifies those He calls."

I can explain clearer if my words are a bit vague but I hope this helps further this conversation.

[cleanvisit]

When God, an omnipotent being (one who already knows ALL things) calls someone to perform a work, he already knows it will happen.

Now, even though I believe this, it is still difficult at times to grasp. Anyway....the minuteness of a finite mind....argh!

[Seminarysnoozer]

  Traveler said:

First off, Seminarysnoozer, it appears from you post that you have not read the definition of prayer in the LDS bible dictionary that I suggested. Since you have not read let me quote one part that may help you:

“Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of G-d, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that G-d is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.”

The reason that Snow’s question is so good is because it highlights some of our misunderstandings of prayer, individual will and answers to prayer.

The Traveler

Even after reading the bible dictionary I still don't see how you made the jump from the title of this thread "Does God meddle with free will? and Snows summary of his question "is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?" to a discussion of changing Gods will through prayer. If you think that is an excellent question what would you think of the question "Does prayer change the will of God?" - - a more excellent and clearer question?

I have had enough banter with Snow to realize the open-ended question approach or an obscure question before going in for the kill after we have chewed ourselves up over it. Snow's question clearly uses the words "a person's free agency" and "divine manipulation" meaning God is doing the changing to a person. It seems to me Snow was asking about the second part to that of which the Bible dictionary is talking about for prayer. If you believe God never acts on our prayers then I guess that is a different discussion. I think Snow was asking about after prayer is successful in asking the thing that God is waiting to hear and that condition of asking was met .... THEN .... could God manipulate a person's free agency? Or do you think after the conditions of prayer are met that God does nothing?

Do you think Snow's waving of the hands has reached new heights by putting a title and a "simply stated ..." question pointing in another direction from the real intent of the question? ... that Snow really wanted to ask about changing the will of God? and not God manipulating agency of a person?

I'm not telling you that you can't focus on one aspect of the question that you have interest in, go for it! But don't tell me because I didn't read something that I didn't perceive as the focus of the question that I don't understand the answer to a separate question. I agree with all that the Bible dictionary has to say about prayer and yet the question could still be posed that Snow posted. I think a discussion of the value of prayer and how God answers prayer is good. But one could still ask, "Does God meddle with free will (as an action that may or may not be directly related to anybody's personal prayer)?"

[Snow]

  Seminarysnoozer said:

If free agency is given by God how is manipulation of it by God not in accordance with gospel principles?

see: Satan's Plan.

[Snow]

  Still_Small_Voice said:

Whenever questions like this come up I refer back to these scriptures:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. -- Isaiah 55:8-9

Your point being??? That it is all a big ole giant mystery????

[Snow]

Here's a thought on the topic:

If short of God's intervention, a state of affairs, SA1, would occur due to the exercise of free will of a free agent and then God would have to manipulate the exercise of free will to bring about some other state of affairs, SA2.

If a prospective employer prayed to God for guidance on who to hire and God somehow inspired him with an answer, then God has exercised persuasive power but has not violated free will - which I, and gospel principles - I think, hold sacred. On the other hand if the employer, at the same time an applicant was praying for a job, was set on giving the job to someone else, and God intervened and supernaturally interceded to compel SA2 when the employer wished no divine guidance, then coersive power would have been exercised.

The difference is persuasion vs coercion.

In D&C JS wrote that "no power can or ought to be maintained only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness and by love unfeigned"

While a person my pray for a job, if the employer is not inclined to receive divine guidance, it's a one-way street and would be coercive and thus outside gospel principles... at least that's what I am thinking tonight.

[Gatorman]

Agreed Snow. Heavenly Father would not possess someone to change their mind for them. However, he is capable of acting very persuasively. If he believed that the job was critical for that person, he could perform a miracle to help get that decision made. Perhaps he finds the other person ANOTHER job. Who knows? But, no, Heavenly Father would not act AS the employer and take away agency.

[rameumptom]

Snow, I believe that God does intercede on occasion with free will. Did Pharaoh want to let the children of Israel go? Did Laban want his head cut off? Did the many peoples that God has destroyed have their agency stopped? Is this God only influencing, or is it God forcing the issue? I think God can and does on occasion force choices upon us.

I think we can plainly see that God allows agency, but only to a certain extent at times. It is more an issue of: if God does not intervene, will his will be done? If so, then he can withhold action. However, where his divine will and the final outcome may be impacted, he does step in.

[Seminarysnoozer]

  Snow said:

see: Satan's Plan.

Satan's plan was to take away free agency all together. Your question was about manipulating free agency. What's your point?

If one drives down a 2 lane highway and it suddenly turns into an 8 lane highway, free agency has been manipulated. If one is driving down an 8 lane highway that cuts into a 2 lane highway to cross a bridge, free agency has been manipulated. When Joseph Smith prayed to God for guidance as soon as he was visited by God, God directly manipulated his free agency as it opened up to many more options than what he had before. So the answer to your question, Does God meddle with free will? The answer is yes, because He can change the choices available, that's how he changes the free will of men. ... and it doesn't have to be negative, it can be in a positive direction.

The next time you are driving down an 8 lane highway and it turns into a 2 lane highway, ask yourself if your free will has been manipulated (note* I'm not asking if it was taken away, just manipulated).

I'm sure there are people who see it differently, but that's how I see it. Of course if you were to ask me, Does God take away free agency? I would say no, that would defeat the purpose of this life. But if you ask, what it looks like you asked, Does God meddle with free will/agency? the answer is yes. .... for me at least, until someone explains differently, which I am open for.

[rameumptom]

In Snow's example, he is suggesting what is called Libertarian Free Will. There are arguments for and against it. I suggest the LDS Philosophy email list for some good discussions on it (it pops up frequently there). Also Mormon Metaphysics (Clark has some good stuff here).

The thing is, there are also strong evidence that Libertarian Free Will does not exist. There are philosophical problems both ways. It is on the one extreme, while PreDestination and Calvin's TULIP are on the other extreme. In the middle is Compatibilism, where agency and predestination are both tempered - it is with this that you will usually find me.

So, I reject the concept that God must allow us absolute free will/agency, as it just doesn't happen. Nor is it an issue that God tinkers on occasion, as he generally allows free will to occur in our lives.