Kneeling during sacrament?

[SailorJohn]

When talking about how the Elders are to administer the sacrament both D&C 20: 76 and Moroni 4: 2 say "...kneel down wth the church..."

These scriptures don't say kneel down for the church, before the church, infront of the church, or any thing like that they say "... kneel down with the church..." to me this indicated that the congregation and the elders are to kneel down together.

I am wondering has this ever been the method in the history of the LDS church and why don't we do this now?

[Maxgreen1]

Kneeling is symbolic of reverence and humility. We are encouraged to be reverent and humble during the administration of the sacrament.

[pam]

I could be wrong but my take on it is a matter of symbolism. When a Priest or an Elder gives the sacrament prayer on the bread and water, he's not giving it just for him, but giving it for all of us. The kneeling is a symbol of reverence and humility as Maxgreen mentioned. Therefore the one kneeling is actually kneeling for all of us as proxy per se to show our reverence and humility before taking the Sacrament. Therefore wth the Church makes sense to me if I look at it in this way.

[Hill-Billy]

Yes, it has been done just like it says. Also, the priest is to administer to each person. That is he is to hand the broken bread to each person and the person hands it back to him. The person next to you does not hand it to you. What if the person next to you does not partake. You can't give an ordinance that you have not taken part of. Can't give what you dont have or hold. Next is the way we treat the unused bread and water. To toss it in the garbage to me is wrong. Way wrong. We need to drink all the water and eat all the bread. I hate it when these decons who are not supposed to pass the sacrament just toss the unused into the garbage.

Anyway that is the way it used to be. How do I Know this... My old dead Grandfather told me some 50 years ago. It is done the way it is most expediant.

[pam]

Where does it say that the priest is to administer to each person? My thoughts are that the word "administer" doesn't necessarily mean "pass" to each person. That would be the role of the Deacon. Basically the Priests and/or the Elders are administrators of the Sacrament under the direction of the Bishop.

Administering to me would be the breaking of the bread, the prayer and the passing of the sacrament trays to the Deacons who then pass to each of the members.

Edited November 27, 2009 by pam

[Moksha]

Pam, another way of looking at this, is that everyone involved the the process of getting the symbolic communion to the supplicants is involved it its ministration.

[Moksha]

If kneeling was required for everyone, someone would undoubtedly declare that touching down with the right knee first shows proper respect and reverence.

And no more than one pair of kneepads!

[MarginOfError]

Yes, it has been done just like it says. Also, the priest is to administer to each person. That is he is to hand the broken bread to each person and the person hands it back to him. The person next to you does not hand it to you. What if the person next to you does not partake. You can't give an ordinance that you have not taken part of. Can't give what you dont have or hold. Next is the way we treat the unused bread and water. To toss it in the garbage to me is wrong. Way wrong. We need to drink all the water and eat all the bread. I hate it when these decons who are not supposed to pass the sacrament just toss the unused into the garbage.

Anyway that is the way it used to be. How do I Know this... My old dead Grandfather told me some 50 years ago. It is done the way it is most expediant.

Perhaps it is of value to note that "administer" means to manage, supervise, or oversee. It's also important to remember the division of labor in the offices of the Aaronic Priesthood are somewhat arbitrary, and there have been a number of changes aside from this one. In fact, deacons used to be ordained at the age of 12; teachers at 15; and priests at 18. Changes get made from time to time when the prophets feel that the change will better prepare the young men to receive and exercise the Melchizedek Priesthood.

With regard to kneeling, it might have been reasonable to do that at a time when you had smaller congregations. But with congregations the size of what we have now, it becomes more of a disruption with all the up and down. We've been instructed to do everything we can to ensure the spirit is as strong as possible during the administration of the Sacrament, and the ruckus of 200 people getting down and then rising up again isn't exactly conducive with that instruction.

Then you also have problems with space. In most chapels I have been in, there isn't really enough space between pews to kneel between them.

Finally, old people have a hard time getting up and down. It's just a lot more kind to not make them feel like they're not able to meet the expectation. This was actually the impetus behind no longer requiring people to stand up to make oaths in the temple ceremony. When we think about ordinances, we need to remember that substance is more important than form.

[pam]

Pam, another way of looking at this, is that everyone involved the the process of getting the symbolic communion to the supplicants is involved it its ministration.

I realize that. I was addressing the words administer and passing and what the difference could be.

[pam]

Next is the way we treat the unused bread and water. To toss it in the garbage to me is wrong. Way wrong. We need to drink all the water and eat all the bread. I hate it when these decons who are not supposed to pass the sacrament just toss the unused into the garbage.

Curious what you would propose is done with it? Have the teachers who clear off the sacrament table have a little feast on the left over bread? That seems even worse to me as it has been blessed and not to be used just to feast on to keep from wasting.

[Moksha]

I realize that. I was addressing the words administer and passing and what the difference could be.

Here is an analogy if it may help: Dentists administer gas, but some of us only pass it.

[pam]

Ummmm thanks for the analogy..but seems a bit irreverent when we're talking about something as sacred as the Sacrament.

[KeithLBrown]

The Blessing and Passing of the Sacrament

Having served as both the Second Counselor and as the First Counselor in the Bishopric, and now serving as the High Priest Group Leader, the first thing that I would teach about the Sacrament is that the sacred ordinance is symbolic in many ways. The broken bread represents the body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that in a literal sense was broken for us when He was nailed to the cruel Roman cross on Golgotha's Hill, and the water represents His precious blood that was shed or poured out for each of us. He became the sacrificial lamb for the slaughter -- sin's final sacrifice. He who knew no sin became sin for us or in other words on our behalf. He was crucified for all humanity - those born and those yet to be born. It was a tremendous selfless act of love. No greater love than this hath any man.

When a Priest or Elder is called upon to administer the Sacrament he is performing the ordnance under the direction of his Bishop or Branch President who is the presiding officer of the meeting. The word administer refers to the preparation, blessing, and passing of the Sacramental emblems. First and foremost, it should be remembered that this sacred ordinance is performed in remembrance of the Crucified One - our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore, reverence and humility are to be demonstrated by the Priests or Elders seated at the table, as well as the Deacons who will pass the emblems to the members of the congregation. Those who administer the Sacrament in essence set the spiritual tone for those who are about to partake of it.

When a Priest or Elder kneels to give the Sacramental prayer for the bread or for the water, he is kneeling and offering the prayer on behalf of the entire congregation -- for those who will partake of the Sacrament, as well as for those who will not partake for whatever reasons. When we partake of the Sacrament each week we are renewing covenants which we have made and at the same time we are remembering Him who paid the ultimate price for us all. Through the Atonement He paid a debt that He did not owe and a debt that none of us could ever pay on our own. We must remember that the Atonement of Jesus Christ (of which the sacred ordinance of the Sacrament is a reminder of) was not for the one or just for some. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was for EVERYONE. Christ died for all of our sins -- past, present, and future. Therefore, the Sacrament is meant for EVERYONE. Christ invites all to come and dine. However, with that being said, we must also remember that Christ also taught that we should not partake of the Sacrament unworthily. Therefore, there may be people among the congregation that may not partake.

The Deacons are not required to pass the Sacrament to each member individually. Here again is another important lesson to be learned. By passing the Sacramental emblems to one another we are demonstrating our love for one another and our willingness to serve one another. This is also representative of the earthly ministry of Christ as He came to be a servant to others, not merely to be served, and He did so in humility. If a member is not partaking of the Sacrament for whatever reason, he is free to pass it on to the member sitting beside him. Once all of the members on a row who wish to partake have been served, then the bread or the water is passed back to the Deacon and he continues to serve until everyone who wishes to partake has had a chance to partake.

After the Sacrament service is over it is customary to clean out the trays. There is nothing in the Church handbooks that states that all of the bread must be eaten and all of the water must be drank. The trays are always cleaned in order that the next time the Sacrament is prepared there will be clean vessels to use. The clean trays in essence are a symbol of purity. We teach that the bread and water are symbolic of the literal body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is indeed Holy and Pure - He is without spot or blemish, therefore, the Sacrament should always be prepared using clean trays. You will also note that a clean white table cloth is always used to cover the bread and the water once prepared. The white table cloth is also a symbol of purity.

Truly, there is much to be learned from the sacred ordnance of the Sacrament.

Edited November 28, 2009 by KeithLBrown
Revision of text and correction of gramatical errors

[pam]

Thank you Keith. I LOVED it!!

[Hill-Billy]

Well, my dear sister Pam;

Look at D&C 20 the whole truth, and also look at sec 46, 76 "and the Elder or Priest shall administer; Read the whole thing. Now see if you can look over your history of the church and find that this was the way it was in the beginning and that to have Decons do it is a new way, not the old way. For good or bad it was changed.

[john doe]

So, you've got nothing.

[NeuroTypical]

Joseph Fielding Smith urged caution when getting too uppity about how the sacrament should and shouldn't be carried out. He figured such uppitiness is what threw the Catholics off course.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, Vol 1, p.103

It is a very interesting study to discover how ordinances and doctrines became changed in the first centuries of the Christian era. These changes date back even to the days of the apostles. Paul frequently had to rebuke, warn and counsel with the members in the several branches which he was instrumental in organizing when on his missionary journeys. He severely rebuked the saints at Corinth for desecrating the holy ordinance of the Sacrament and turning it into a feast where the Spirit of the Lord could not be present.

The first changes that came, evidently came innocently because some enterprising bishop or other officer endeavored to introduce into his meetings, or among his congregation something new—just a little different, in advancement of that which was practiced elsewhere. This tendency is very apparent in the wards and stakes of the Church today.

For example, let us consider the ordinance of the Sacrament. It became the custom in many wards throughout the church to have the young men who passed the Sacrament all dressed alike with dark coats, white shirts and uniform ties. This could in time lead to the established custom of dressing them in uniform, such as we see done in some sectarian and other churches. Then again as they passed the Sacrament they had to stand with their left hand plastered on their backs in a most awkward manner. The priests or elders who administered these holy emblems had to stand in a certain way as the one officiating in the prayer knelt at the table. In some instances the Bishop stood in the pulpit with raised hands in an attitude of benediction. Other customs among the quorums and in the services of the wards were introduced. Members of the Church were instructed that they must not touch the trays containing the bread and the water with their left hand, but must take it in their right hand after partaking as their neighbor held the tray in his or her right hand. In the Priesthood in the wards, we now have "supervisors" directing the activities of the deacons and the priests. How long will it take before these supervisors are considered as a regular part of the Priesthood and it will be necessary to set them apart or ordain them to this office? So we see that we, if we are not careful, will find ourselves traveling the road that brought the Church of Jesus Christ in the first centuries into disrepute and paved the way for the apostasy.

There are three symbolic elements in the sacrament. The bread symbolizes Christ's flesh, the water His body, and kneeling symbolizes our relationship to Him. You get to work on your own personal discipleship - not the next guy's over. If the Bishop has no issue with a visitor or excommunicated person taking the tray and handing it off to the next guy, why do you have an issue. If you have a problem with a couple of soldiers sweating in Afghanistan blessing and passing water from a canteen cup and an MRE cracker, you might want to focus your disapproving eye inward. If you figure there needs to be more ritual in the church in general, I hear the Catholics are always happy to have new people.

LM

[john doe]

To toss it in the garbage to me is wrong. Way wrong. We need to drink all the water and eat all the bread. I hate it when these decons who are not supposed to pass the sacrament just toss the unused into the garbage.

So, you want sacrament bread- and water- eating contests after church? Seems to me that would be a little sacrilegious. How do you propose they be disposed of? And just so you know, the deacons currently don't dispose of the unused sacrament, the teachers do.

[pam]

Well, my dear sister Pam;

Look at D&C 20 the whole truth, and also look at sec 46, 76 "and the Elder or Priest shall administer; Read the whole thing. Now see if you can look over your history of the church and find that this was the way it was in the beginning and that to have Decons do it is a new way, not the old way. For good or bad it was changed.

My dear brother Hill Billy,

If I am incorrect as you have attempted to point out..why are there no other Priesthood holders who have also responded on this corrected me..in fact they have agreed with me as I have also agreed with them.

Edited November 28, 2009 by pam

[bytebear]

Another example of the need for modern prophets. When we as members disagree on methods and procedure, there is a hierarchy put in place, led by a prophet and headed by Jesus Christ himself to clarify and keep things being done according to God's will. There are times when wards do things in an incorrect manner, and sometimes it takes a visit from an apostle or area authority to notice it and clarify things, but this is not one of them, and I doubt anyone on this board has the authority to make such decisions for the church.

[KeithLBrown]

Dear Brother Hill-Billy and all,

Might I suggest that you take some time to either read or listen to what an Apostle of the Lord had to say about the sacred ordinance of the Sacrament. In a General Conference address during the Saturday morning session of the October 2008 Conference, Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke on the subject "Sacrament Meeting and the Sacrament." You can also read the message by going here or here.

[pam]

Thank you Keith. I also have that talk on my website under the Sacrament topic. It's an awesome talk.

[Hill-Billy]

Why argue over it. Just do it right the first time and don't change it. I think JS did it right. Why not just follow his lead. Since his day, the day the Lord gave him all the answers and the way things should be done. We are not the same church we were then, we are completly different church. Only time will tell if that is OK or did we do something wrong in changing everything. Members in the church, as I am, get up set when we read D&C 85:7 so on. To set in order the house of god in order; if he is to set it in order would you not think that it has to become out-of-order first?

I love this church, but just look at our history and compare with ancient history to see we are not perfect and men make mistakes.

[pam]

Yikes! There have been 8 Prophets/Presidents of the church in my lifetime. If we were doing things incorrectly, would you not think that one of those would have changed the way we perform and administer the Sacrament if it were incorrect? The Sacrament has been administered and passed the same way all my life. You say men make mistakes and I would agree...but did/do all these men who have led and lead the Church today make the same mistake?

[Justice]

There have been many organizational and administrative changes in the church over the years. I've always understood those changes as the Lord revealing truth line upon line, and not that we are being led astray from the original.

Remember, administering is very different than ministering. Administering is as has been mentioned, it's "managing." Ministering is typically done one-by-one. Maybe that will ease the confusion.