Obstacles to our faith

[lattelady]

What is the biggest obstacle to your faith?

Mine is my own lack of consistency in studying the Word and applying it. I know that is where truth lies, and still I neglect it.

[Pegasus]

I've never encountered anything that I wasn't able to conquer just by listening to the still small voice of the Holy Ghost.

[RanMan]

Laziness is my personal stumbling block. Being too comfortable and not wanting to get up and do anything.

[Maxgreen1]

Pride*

So I try harder to put others first.

And I try my best to do lots and lots of service.

*Against fellow men

[ehkape]

Our own church history and the way it is dealt with today by our leaders.

It seems to be more important to have many short faithpromoting pieces of history in our lesson manuals than to face the whole history with some of its teachings and practices that may be embarassing.

There is no point to pretend some things never happend. They did. So why not be honest about it?

[FunkyTown]

Our own church history and the way it is dealt with today by our leaders.

It seems to be more important to have many short faithpromoting pieces of history in our lesson manuals than to face the whole history with some of its teachings and practices that may be embarassing.

There is no point to pretend some things never happend. They did. So why not be honest about it?

They aren't dishonest, Ehkape. They just don't talk about it in church because it's not faith promoting.

Tell me: When was the last time you went to Mass and had a lesson on the crusades? Or, if you were a protestant before joining, a lesson on when the Protestants murdered the Catholics in Prague?

If you want a history lesson on the church, attend BYU and study it. If you want to learn and grow in your faith, attend church.

[Misshalfway]

I couldn't have said it better Funky. Thanks.

I will say that I do think that the church does do some white washing and I think the members sometimes set the leaders on too high a perch. But, it has been my experience that the church wants its members to understand its history. I think the problem happens because people don't know how to square the truthfulness of the restoration with the frailties of the servants who restored it.

[Guest mormonmusic]

For me, my biggest stumbling blocks have proven to be:

a) frustration in not being able to get results when I've had priesthood leadership positions; the ratio of effort to results was so low, it curbed my enthusiasm

b) my tendency to overlook the positives in life, which then creates negative faith

c) the behavior of others in the gospel, which presents challenges to my testimony.

However, lest we sound too negative, I've managed to prevail over all these things to date....having strong spiritual experiences is the key, and keeping a personal journal of them is important so they can rejuvenate you when your testimony starts to wane.

I activated myself years ago simply by reading my missionary journal. I'd forgotten the many ways the Spirit had activated testimony and motion from people to do good, and it rekindled the eternal perspective you need to stay strong and active in the gospel.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know what my biggest obstacle is to my faith cuz my list is long. Which reminds me I don't know exactly what you mean by faith. Do you mean faith as in following the tenants of my church OR do you mean actually exercizing faith in the trenches of life? Heck! maybe its the same thing.

I guess I have many weaknesses that try to get in the way of my faith. Sometimes its fear or blindness cause I can't see outcomes or maybe I want to control them. Other times its frustration with others and their lack of love. Sometimes its pride or laziness or emotional pain..... or some combination of them working together with the temptations of Satan.

My family and I just recommitted to reading the scriptures every morning before school. I am always amazed at how much power reading the scriptures adds to my life. It's crazy to watch. My kids are visably happier and they leave the house with a little extra light in their faces....in their countenances. It is crazy cool to witness.

I love the scriptures. Reading them is one of the best things about living my religion. There is not any other source that has impacted or helped my life along.

[sulli]

Our own church history and the way it is dealt with today by our leaders.

It seems to be more important to have many short faithpromoting pieces of history in our lesson manuals than to face the whole history with some of its teachings and practices that may be embarassing.

There is no point to pretend some things never happend. They did. So why not be honest about it?

I agree with this to a great extent. I think a lot of the things in the history of the church have been really shocking to me because they are not really talked about. I also grew up in wards where we were not really encouraged to try and understand the history either. It was very whitewashed.

I promise I am not a troll, but for me the shock from learning about parts of the history has shaken my faith to a great degree. Ehkape's response is definitely a credible reason to struggle with your faith.

[ehkape]

If you want a history lesson on the church, attend BYU and study it. If you want to learn and grow in your faith, attend church.

Thanks. There is no BYU in Europe... So I can't

As to being honest or dishonest: To me it is dishonest if I don't tell the whole story.

When my brother and I were young and picked up a fight one of us usually said "He hit me, so I hit him" That was true. But If the whole truth would have been "I hit him, he hit me, so I hit him again" it changes the whole picture. Honest or dishonest?

Faithpromoting or not - who cares. I was raised LDS and grew up in a sheltered LDS comunity. Its not my intention to compare our church with protestants, catholic or any born again out there. The question was about the biggest stumbling block in OUR faith - to me thats our history:

Polygamie and polyandrie, denying Blacks the Priesthood, the different accounts of the 1st vision, the lectures on faith, early apostles/leaders leaving the church for whatever reason, unfulfilled prophecies given by Joseph, the split in the church after J.S. death, some of Brigham Youngs teachings (i.e. Adam being God), changes to the Doctrine and Covenants, changes to the endowment, the Utah war, church involvement in buisnisses, etc, etc.

Having to find out about all of these events even though being raised LDS and having served a full time mission is a massive stumbling block to me.

"Truth restored" seems to be valid only for some faithpromoting parts of our church.

[ehkape]

I think a lot of the things in the history of the church have been really shocking to me because they are not really talked about. I also grew up in wards where we were not really encouraged to try and understand the history either. It was very whitewashed.

Exactly. If I would have heard about any of the "darker" history within a church setting, it might have been easier to understand. As a missionary I heard all sorts of accusationas against the church. Never having heard about anything like that before, I firmly denied that such things happend. After my mission I was called as elders quorum president. I had one of my elders become less active because of something called the "Adam-God-Theory" I wanted to help him understand that he had wrong information from the wrong sources and looked up the Journal of Discourses. Well - to my surprise I found that I was mistaken... What a shock! Then I remembered many of the accusations tossed at my on my mission. I studied a little more in detail and - what a shock again! Most of them being true.

Now think of the damage that has been done:

1. as a missionary I told my investigators that they were wrong. So they stopped investigating and probably thaught missionaries are trained to lie. How sad is that!

2. I couldn't help my "sheep" who needed help. He eventually had his name taken off the record. How sad!

3. My own faith (and mainly my trust) in the church is shaken because I had to find out the "other" history on my own and not in an open straightforward and honest way. I am still a member and my wife does the best she can to help me see the good parts about the gospel but it would have never been such a massive shock if at least some of the things would have been included in sunday school, seminary, institute or any other church connected forum.

Edited November 30, 2009 by ehkape

[Still_Small_Voice]

Sulli if you read thru the Bible you will see many of the Lord's servants stumbling in weakness. Moses when talking with the Lord did not want to talk to Pharoah because he said he had a "slow tongue." Aaron built an idol (a golden calf) for the children of Israel to worship. David committed adultery then murdered the woman's husband. Peter lied and said he did not know Jesus Christ three times.

Gain a testimony of the principles of the gospel by living it. The saints in the past were weak but many of them repented and became the people God wanted them to be thru the Atonement of Christ.

This is a great comfort to me to know that despite all of my weaknesses Christ can call me His own at the last day if I will strive to follow Him in faith as I struggle in this mortal life.

[Maxel]

FunkyTown, you put it so eloquently. Thank you.

For me, the biggest stumbling blocks in my faith is the personal application, particularly in the areas of laziness and overcoming lust. Doctrinally, I have rarely been presented with something that proved as a major stumbling block.

[Misshalfway]

Exactly. If I would have heard about any of the "darker" history within a church setting, it might have been easier to understand. As a missionary I heard all sorts of accusationas against the church. Never having heard about anything like that before, I firmly denied that such things happend. After my mission I was called as elders quorum president. I had one of my elders become less active because of something called the "Adam-God-Theory" I wanted to help him understand that he had wrong information from the wrong sources and looked up the Journal of Discourses. Well - to my surprise I found that I was mistaken... What a shock! Then I remembered many of the accusations tossed at my on my mission. I studied a little more in detail and - what a shock again! Most of them being true.

Now think of the damage that has been done:

1. as a missionary I told my investiogors that they were wrong. So they stopped investigating and probably thaught missionaries are trained to lie. How sad is that!

2. I couldn't help my "sheep" who needed help. He eventually had his name taken off the record. How sad!

3. My own faith (and mainly my trust) in the church is shaken because I had to find out the "other" history on my own and not in an open straightforward and honest way. I am still a member and my wife does the best she can to help me see the good parts about the gospel but it would have never been such a massive shock if at least some of the things would have been included in sunday school, seminary, institute or any other church connected forum.

I just wanna say that I completely appreciate this concern and the points you have made. You know.....I wish that I could say that the restoration meant that the leaders of the church never made PR mistakes or that they always did the perfect thing with regards to dealing with the history. But, I think for the most part they are doing the best they can.

For whatever reason God doesn't command in all things. He waits for us to catch on or He gives a segment of knowledge and He lets events play out.

Other times I wonder about history and historians in general. If someone where to come into my life and my choices with such scutany, I can guarantee they will get it wrong or take it out of context or miss the unseen mitigating circumstances. As I have anguished over my own concerns about JSmith and the church itself, I have come to the conclusion that maybe there are things that aren't for us to understand. How much of JSmith's private life should we be allowed to evaluate. We have learned to give Emma some slack as we have been invited to suspend our contempt over her choices. Perhaps we need to apply a little of that empathy to the rest of those who tried to live this gospel while still battling the flesh at the same time.

God, for whatever reason, puts the weak things of the world out into it to teach the rest. Why uneducated cocky half blind 19 year olds? Why call headstrong and somewhat predjudiced persons to become prophets? God calls whom he calls. Our job is to get a testimony and follow inspite of it all. And maybe we learn how to read and evaluate our history too.

The church will continue on and it will most likely make more mistakes along the way. But God is able to get his work done. He was able to use a boy to bring to pass a restoration that thwarted the most powerful of religions and project that message to almost this entire globe! And He did in inspite of alll the collosal mistakes and falseness and frailties of everyone involved.

The message of the gospel to this world IS NOT its history! The power is in the principles!! This is where we lead people and this is where we anchor ourselves! Then the winds of weakness and PR mistakes and whatever can pass overus and we can withstand it all.

I think our history is a great sifter. I think it must be met and treated like we should treat each other -- with gentlenss and great compassion and lots and lots of tender mercy as we listen to the spirit to understand all of it. And its ok if it shocks us or disturbs us. The journey to come to terms can be powerful and humbling one.

[Maxel]

Okay, since people are bashing the Church, let me paraphrase something Blake Ostler said at a symposium.

"I found out about the controversial issues of the Church when I was 11. Members who don't know about these things don't know about them because they've never cared to look."

If you belong to a religion and aren't interested in its history, then you don't care too much about it. I'm sorry, but that's the hard truth. I found out about the major controversial events in the Church's history when I was 13-14, from anti-Mormon websites. The information is there, available to anyone who will look for it- the anti-Mormons have seen to that, as have the real historians (both Mormon and non-Mormon).

As for asking why the Church doesn't talk about it- there have been official statements from the leaders, either repudiating past doctrine (like BY's Adam-God doctrine) or clarifying past events, and even apologizing for the Mormons' role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Sunday School is for learning about the good things of the Kingdom of God, not about the moments of weakness of His servants as they sought to bring about the Lord's kingdom.

On a side note, in my opinion most of the controversial stories from the Church's past don't hold water- that is, there's little if anything particularly damning about the Church or its leaders in those stories.

[ehkape]

The message of the gospel to this world IS NOT its history! The power is in the principles!! This is where we lead people and this is where we anchor ourselves!

Thanks for your post. I agree. I don't want a time machine to go back and change history. I want an open and honest dialogue within our LDS comunity so that we can look back at history and say exactly what you said.

I am glad that the church is now publishing the Joseph Smith papers. I think, they are moving in the right direction to make secondary reading available. I just wish the same spirit continues with the new manuals and lessons in the future.

[sulli]

Gain a testimony of the principles of the gospel by living it. The saints in the past were weak but many of them repented and became the people God wanted them to be thru the Atonement of Christ.

This is a great comfort to me to know that despite all of my weaknesses Christ can call me His own at the last day if I will strive to follow Him in faith as I struggle in this mortal life.

I don't disagree with you. Living the principles of the Gospel will show you whether or not the principle is a true principle. I have strived to live the gospel faithfully my whole life. I have strived to always strengthen what I was taught were the five points of a testimony - belief in God, belief in His Son, belief that Joseph Smith was/is a prophet, belief in the Book of Mormon, testimony that the church is true. I have been taught to follow the teachings and example of Christ.

Here is where I have personally run into problems. (I am not making generalizations. I am speaking about my own personal experience.) The image that my primary teachers, parents and leaders put forward was useful for building my faith. I grew up hearing stories in primary about how noble Joseph was even as a child - so noble that when he had surgery on his leg he would not drink any alcohol. He was so noble that he saw God and Christ and was called to be a prophet.

I was not shown a weak man. I was always shown a very strong, and noble man. I was always shown a man that was nearly perfect even from his youth. I can go back and read the Bible and see the weakness of those prophets, but I was NEVER shown the weakness of Joseph Smith. So yeah I was shocked and surprised when I started to learn things about church history that did not show him as being perfect. I felt betrayed and lied to. THIS is what I mean when the history of the church starts to surface and it shocks you.

It would have been better for my testimony if Joseph Smith had been portrayed to me as a man with weaknesses that were ironed out by the atonement, but I was not shown that. I was shown that he was perfect.

Does that make sense?

[Misshalfway]

Okay, since people are bashing the Church,

I honestly don't think anyone is "bashing" the church. Why this reaction? Our history is sometimes hard to understand. It takes a minute to process especially for those who never knew they had to look further. Bringing this concern out in frank terms, imho, is not bashing.

[Gwen]

something to consider.... not saying that finding some things out can't be a stumbling block, i know it can be.... but the reality is you found them out because they were available to you. to echo a similar sentiments already expressed... in the grand scheme of churches ours is very young. it was begun at a time in history when records of everything, and i mean everything, could be kept. so they were kept (some more accurate than others). they weren't hid or altered or anything, they are there if you want to go looking for them. church is for learning the saving doctrines, if you didn't hear it in all those yrs then maybe it's not important for your salvation. not saying it's not important but not part of salvation. other churches have been around a long time and have much uglier things in their past. but the records weren't kept, or they were intentionally changed or hid or just plain forgotten about. every church if put under the same microscope would look bad. the very reason some stand by no religion at all, they have looked it up and can't find a "christian church" that actually has a "perfect christian" past.

yes history can be a major stumbling block. the fact that it's there to stumble over contradicts the complaint that the church hides it's history. what you are stumbling over isn't something the church created, it's something you created. the reality is it's true for every stumbling block. like any stumbling block we have to face it, deal with it, be honest about it, and decide for us if we are just going to stumble or let it knock us off our feet.

[Kishkumen_Called]

If I may digress slightly, I've been reading a wonderful book that makes the distinction between sin and weakness and how they are entirely different, with different causes, different cures, and different outcomes. It's entitled: Weakness Is Not Sin: The Liberating Distinction That Awakens Our Strengths by Wendy Ulrich (amazon or deseretbook).

I highly recommend it.

The reason I bring this up is because the posts thus far encompass both sins and weaknesses. Sins we're commanded to overcome thru the Atonement of Christ and "sin no more." Weaknesses on the other hand, are trickier and stickier - we may or may not overcome weaknesses throughout our lives, but morally, weaknesses are neutral - they don't count against us as sin. However, they still can impede progress.

Cheers

[sulli]

Okay, since people are bashing the Church, let me paraphrase something Blake Ostler said at a symposium.

"I found out about the controversial issues of the Church when I was 11. Members who don't know about these things don't know about them because they've never cared to look."

If you belong to a religion and aren't interested in its history, then you don't care too much about it. I'm sorry, but that's the hard truth. I found out about the major controversial events in the Church's history when I was 13-14, from anti-Mormon websites. The information is there, available to anyone who will look for it- the anti-Mormons have seen to that, as have the real historians (both Mormon and non-Mormon).

The information is there, but we aren't encouraged to look for it, or at least I was not. I was always taught that you don't look at those things. Not to mention the temple recommend interview question that asks something about whether or not you associate with anyone or any groups that are anti-mormon. I felt that if I ever looked at that information I would have to answer "yes" to that question and thus be found unworthy.

[Maxel]

I honestly don't think anyone is "bashing" the church. Why this reaction? Our history is sometimes hard to understand. It takes a minute to process especially for those who never knew they had to look further. Bringing this concern out in frank terms, imho, is not bashing.

Perhaps my response was overly reactionary.

After writing a fuller response, I've found that I'm too impassioned on this subject at the moment to write a post that won't offend the parties in question. Therefore, I will return to this thread at a later time.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for your post. I agree. I don't want a time machine to go back and change history. I want an open and honest dialogue within our LDS comunity so that we can look back at history and say exactly what you said.

You aren't alone in wanting more of this. How much better would it be if we all had a sound understanding of things. And If every bishop had a clad iron memory of times and dates and important quotes. I think we come to this understanding on our own just like so many parts of earth life growth.

Having said that, it hasn't been my experience with the church that every embarrassing thing has been suppressed. My BYU religion classes were pretty open about things and I can't list the number of conversations outside of church I have participated in and learned from that discussed things out in the open. Even the D&C seems to be an address the individual mistakes of the early Saints. God seemed pretty direct to a few about their faults. So, I don't think we hide everything. I think what the church tries to do is to direct people to the most important parts in hopes that those foundations will get the most effort, time and precious resources. And there is no doubt they sometimes flub.

There is so much information out there and many BYU professers just waiting to expound , so if anyone wants to learn they can. The online resources alone are astounding.

And you know....after going thru my own battle with the history and trying to learn from the spirit....my heart tells me that many of these concerns don't matter. I am glad I struggled with them, but I find it interesting that knowing more about them doesn't change my focus on trying to live the gospel. In fact, for the most part they are irrelevant. But perhaps I needed to learn that.

[Kishkumen_Called]

Can you blame an institution for acting as an individual? Even if you are forthright and honest about incidents in your life where you were ___ (pick a negative adjective that references your judgement or actions), how often do you want to bring it up, much less take it on Oprah? It may be a learning point for a select few you choose to share it with, but other than that, what purpose does it serve?

I'm not advocating nor suggesting that we stop searching in history, but please keep in mind that history, who ever it's written by, always has an agenda (be it positive or negative).

As a part of my professional life, I have had many people open up to me about things that had nothing to do with my services. While there is professional ethos to consider, I rarely have an encounter where sharing negative experiences with others would benefit anyone.

My 0.02

Cheers