Asking a girl out

[Vort]

None of this teen-age angst type stuff! You're too old for that, man!

This bears repeating. Maybe it's not fair -- after all, you are at whatever level you are at -- but overthinking such interpersonal affairs is a luxury reserved solely for women and very young men. You are neither.

(If it makes you feel any better, even women don't get a free pass on this after the age of about 40.)

[Vort]

But the girl is 23. She's a baby! If it were your daughter, you really gonna tell a 41 year old to RUN to ask out?

For my daughter? You better bet NOT.

But this isn't my daughter we're talking about. :)

Plus, if my 23-year-old daughter started dating a much older man (like nearly my age), I would strongly caution her and advise her against it. But in the end, she's a grown-up, and if I've raised her right, she will be capable of making that determination on her own.

[Misshalfway]

For my daughter? You better bet NOT.

But this isn't my daughter we're talking about. :)

Plus, if my 23-year-old daughter started dating a much older man (like nearly my age), I would strongly caution her and advise her against it. But in the end, she's a grown-up, and if I've raised her right, she will be capable of making that determination on her own.

Well, that sounds a little better.

Still, I am staying with my opinion. The girl is too young.

What do we call cougars that are men??

(To the OP.....I am a true romantic at heart, but barring earthquakes from heaven, I gotta call it like I see it. Sorry.)

[Vort]

What do we call cougars that are men??

We call them...

Men.

[Gwen]

What do we call cougars that are men??

if he's got money it's called a sugar daddy.... but apparently manther is an actual term as well.

[beefche]

I meant late 20 and up to about 31 or 32. I do NOT want to marry someone 41 and it be too tough for them to have kids.

I think I should be offended by this statement. I hope I meet someone who isn't considering my womb as a marriage factor.

[beefche]

BTW, stallion and mormonmusic, Elder Oaks would disagree with you regarding hanging out first. Especially for a man who is 41 years old. Linky

[EQ_Guy]

I think I should be offended by this statement. I hope I meet someone who isn't considering my womb as a marriage factor.

Hello Beefche,

My comment wasn't meant in a bad way. If possible, I'd just like to have my own kids. Most do that, so I don't think I'm asking for too much. I'm just being honest. I'm only interested in dating members and more directly, members who attend church on a regular basis and if possible someone that worthily has a Temple Recommend. I've been a member for awhile and hopefully will have a recommend soon, so yes, I'd like someone that has made those commitments as well.

Yes, I'm attracted to this person and they seem decent, but if I get some one-on-one time with her and feel we don't connect then my interest will die, just as it would if she suddenly goes inactive again. She was inactive for awhile and has just come back the last few months.

[Dravin]

I think I should be offended by this statement. I hope I meet someone who isn't considering my womb as a marriage factor.

Besides that fact that you have one/had one right?

I think it is a question of how much a factor it is. Assuming identicle people (never gonna happen, but bear with me) I'm gonna go with the one who can have kids over one who can't (yes I'm aware that isn't quite the choice being talked about). Of course I can see myself going for the one who likes geeky stuff over one who doesn't, everything else being equal, doesn't mean I'd discount somebody solely on that.

Thing is you are never going to be presented with identicle people (not even twins), so it is always going to be one factor among many. I've probably just jumped into a hole with EQ_Guy here, but there it is. Now hand me a shovel so I can dig myself deeper. :)

[Vort]

I hope I meet someone who isn't considering my womb as a marriage factor.

Not at all! More of a baby factory.

[beefche]

Vort--.

Look, all I'm saying is that even considering if someone can have children or not is very junvenile. I cannot tell you how many of my friends, in their 20's, had extreme difficulty conceiving children. I know of at least 5 couples, while in their 20's, had to have in vitro to have children (and even then, some miscarriages happened). A child with your blood does not mean that child is any more yours than an adopted child or even someone who had another child and you become the father of that child. Just something to think about--23 years old does not mean you 2 would have biological children.

BTW, when I was 23, I would never have considered dating a guy who was 41.

Having said all that negative stuff--she is an adult. So, if you are that attracted, just ask the girl out. Quit the teen stuff of "hanging out" or "wondering what she thinks of me" stuff. Be a man and ask the girl out. The worst she can do is scream at the top of her lungs, cry foul, call the cops or simply drop kick you. And I seriously doubt if any of those things will happen.

[Vort]

Yes, I'm attracted to this person and they seem decent, but if I get some one-on-one time with her and feel we don't connect then my interest will die, just as it would if she suddenly goes inactive again. She was inactive for awhile and has just come back the last few months.

EQ_Guy, I gotta say that the bolded part above raises some red flags in my mind.

As a general principle, I agree that someone who is very interested in his or her religion should seek out a mate who is equally interested. That's just common sense. But human beings are not mere automatons or playthings, to be valued for their external characteristics and discarded when they no longer appeal to you. I would hope that if you decided you truly cared for this girl, you would stand by her if she hit a rough patch. Maybe you would let her know you would not marry her until her feelings better matched yours, but you wouldn't just leave her in the cold -- and if you were already married to her, you would stand by her even if she made poor choices. Maybe you feel this way, but it didn't quite come through to me.

Someone on this forum has a great tagline, a couplet translation of an ancient Greek, I think, something like, "Life's heaven if you marry well; but marry poorly, live in hell." Unlike some others I've heard during my life, I don't think marriage is particularly hard (especially given the alternative), but a successful marriage certainly takes a lot of work and sacrifice. As an adult man approaching middle age, you should be well aware of this, at least in principle, before getting involved in a serious relationship. Especially if your dating partner is very young (and therefore very inexperienced), you will need to take the lead in that. When two people marry young, they essentially grow up together; but if one is middle-aged or close to it, that dynamic changes.

Don't like my advice? I don't blame you. But remember, you asked. :)

[beefche]

Besides that fact that you have one/had one right?

I think it is a question of how much a factor it is. Assuming identicle people (never gonna happen, but bear with me) I'm gonna go with the one who can have kids over one who can't (yes I'm aware that isn't quite the choice being talked about). Of course I can see myself going for the one who likes geeky stuff over one who doesn't, everything else being equal, doesn't mean I'd discount somebody solely on that.

Thing is you are never going to be presented with identicle people (not even twins), so it is always going to be one factor among many. I've probably just jumped into a hole with EQ_Guy here, but there it is. Now hand me a shovel so I can dig myself deeper. :)

Nope, I'm childless--so I guess I prove EQGuy's theory, right?

BTW, before you dig your hole anymore, you are absolutely correct in that there is no such thing as 2 identical people with only one difference. You may and will likely be attracted to more than one person at a time, but there will be noticeable differences between the 2. What ultimately attracts you to one or the other will vary (and I'm just taking a guess here--her womb or baby producing ability will not come into play before other factors).

[Vort]

Look, all I'm saying is that even considering if someone can have children or not is very junvenile.

Ba dum bum TSHHHH!

She'll be here all week, folks!

A child with your blood does not mean that child is any more yours than an adopted child or even someone who had another child and you become the father of that child.

Easy to say, easy to believe when it's someone else, but I don't think it's that easy to live. Even for those who sincerely feel this way, when they have natural children in addition to adopted children, they often find that there is simply a natural psychological (emotional?) bond to the fruit of their own bodies that is weaker or even absent with the adopted child. This should not be surprising, nor am I convinced it's uniformly a bad thing.

BTW, when I was 23, I would never have considered dating a guy who was 41.

Tell me about it. I'm 46, and I still wouldn't consider dating a guy who was 41. (Though admittedly, my wife might get jealous.)

[beefche]

Vort, don't you have an avatar to change?

We're going to just have to disagree on the whole biological child thing. I would be interested to hear from folks who have adopted if they have any less feeling for their adopted ones than their biological ones.

[pam]

I have an adopted daughter in addition to two biological children. My feelings for my adopted daughter are no less than what I feel for the ones I physically gave birth to. She's my daughter no matter what. I mentioned this recently in another thread; but I have to remind myself sometimes I am not the one that gave birth to her. I've raised her since birth, I was at the hospital when she was born...she's as much my daughter as the other two are.

[Dravin]

Nope, I'm childless--so I guess I prove EQGuy's theory, right?

Actually I was talking about a womb... Wow, add this to the list of things you never thought you'd be talking about some day.

BTW, before you dig your hole anymore, you are absolutely correct in that there is no such thing as 2 identical people with only one difference. You may and will likely be attracted to more than one person at a time, but there will be noticeable differences between the 2. What ultimately attracts you to one or the other will vary (and I'm just taking a guess here--her womb or baby producing ability will not come into play before other factors).

Yep, it'd be one factor (most honestly probably a lower one on the list [assuming one lists everything]) among many. I want children, chances are I'll be enamored of somebody before I find out how fertile they are but it is a consideration. Yes I'm aware that one can adopt, and maybe my understanding of that particular procedure is flawed, but it is easier to have them the biological way (says the man...). My understand is there are background checks (not something I'm overly worried about) and financial requirements (something I am worried about). Yes giving birth is expensive, but they can't exactly put the baby back if you can't cough up the money. Though I suppose the cheapest way is to find a girl who already has a couple kids, don't have to pay for adoption or birth. :)

I won't lie, it isn't something I've spent nights pondering, so if things are coming acrossed as not overly thought out that is because it is. I think though in the end not being able to bear children wouldn't be a singular deal breaker in a relationship (and I certainly wouldn't divorce my wife over such), don't know how it might possibly factor into a tipping point though. Prior to the development of a relationship I don't know how I'd react, would I not ask her out in the first place or would those things that attract me to her outweigh such considerations?

Heh, all this talk of fertility and for all I know some day down the road I might find out I'm the one unable to have kids.

[EQ_Guy]

EQ_Guy, I gotta say that the bolded part above raises some red flags in my mind.

As a general principle, I agree that someone who is very interested in his or her religion should seek out a mate who is equally interested. That's just common sense. But human beings are not mere automatons or playthings, to be valued for their external characteristics and discarded when they no longer appeal to you. I would hope that if you decided you truly cared for this girl, you would stand by her if she hit a rough patch. Maybe you would let her know you would not marry her until her feelings better matched yours, but you wouldn't just leave her in the cold -- and if you were already married to her, you would stand by her even if she made poor choices. Maybe you feel this way, but it didn't quite come through to me.

Someone on this forum has a great tagline, a couplet translation of an ancient Greek, I think, something like, "Life's heaven if you marry well; but marry poorly, live in hell." Unlike some others I've heard during my life, I don't think marriage is particularly hard (especially given the alternative), but a successful marriage certainly takes a lot of work and sacrifice. As an adult man approaching middle age, you should be well aware of this, at least in principle, before getting involved in a serious relationship. Especially if your dating partner is very young (and therefore very inexperienced), you will need to take the lead in that. When two people marry young, they essentially grow up together; but if one is middle-aged or close to it, that dynamic changes.

Don't like my advice? I don't blame you. But remember, you asked. :)

What I meant by her going inactive is that I do NOT care to date non-members. If I had met this girl someone else and she treated me the same way I might have thought, "wow, what a nice girl... how come I can't meet a member liker her." One of the reasons I'd like to talk with her more in-depth is to ask her why she came back to church. I asked her this and she told me, but not in-depth. I can identify with her because I've had inactive phases as well.

[EQ_Guy]

Vort--.

Look, all I'm saying is that even considering if someone can have children or not is very junvenile. I cannot tell you how many of my friends, in their 20's, had extreme difficulty conceiving children. I know of at least 5 couples, while in their 20's, had to have in vitro to have children (and even then, some miscarriages happened). A child with your blood does not mean that child is any more yours than an adopted child or even someone who had another child and you become the father of that child. Just something to think about--23 years old does not mean you 2 would have biological children.

BTW, when I was 23, I would never have considered dating a guy who was 41.

Having said all that negative stuff--she is an adult. So, if you are that attracted, just ask the girl out. Quit the teen stuff of "hanging out" or "wondering what she thinks of me" stuff. Be a man and ask the girl out. The worst she can do is scream at the top of her lungs, cry foul, call the cops or simply drop kick you. And I seriously doubt if any of those things will happen.

I'm new to this site, but I really don't get why I'm called juvenile because of my view on having kids. Sure, there's people that are in their early 20s that are sterile and who knows maybe this girl is, but odds are that she's not. Lots of people say they'd like to marry an RM or something for whatever reasons. Maybe they think they'll better grounded in the faith or whatever, but there are NO guarantees. Some RMs go inactive and never return. All I'm talking about is statistics. Just because someone has a Temple recommend and goes to the Temple on a regular basis doesn't mean they will in the future, but a person might like the idea of marrying a recommend person than someone who hasn't gone to church in 20 years and has no immediate desire to.

[Vort]

I have an adopted daughter in addition to two biological children. My feelings for my adopted daughter are no less than what I feel for the ones I physically gave birth to. She's my daughter no matter what. I mentioned this recently in another thread; but I have to remind myself sometimes I am not the one that gave birth to her. I've raised her since birth, I was at the hospital when she was born...she's as much my daughter as the other two are.

This is wonderful, Pam, but unfortunately it doesn't demonstrate much besides in your particular case. How many adoptive parents who don't feel the same about their adoptive children as their natural children are going to respond? And if they do, what are the odds they're going to say, "Yes, well, you know, I have to admit that there is a certain something I feel toward my natural child that just isn't there with adopted Freddy"?

Previous generations had no problem admitting (or showing) bias in favor of natural children over adopted. I am happy that is no longer the case, but somehow I doubt that means human nature itself has fundamentally changed.

[Vort]

I'm new to this site, but I really don't get why I'm called juvenile because of my view on having kids.

Don't worry about it.

You asked for advice and you got both barrels full. Aren't we helpful? But seriously, you are no worse a person just because someone on an internet discussion list said something about you. If she was right, take her words to heart and improve yourself. If she was wrong, ignore her. Easy as that.

[EQ_Guy]

Don't worry about it.

You asked for advice and you got both barrels full. Aren't we helpful? But seriously, you are no worse a person just because someone on an internet discussion list said something about you. If she was right, take her words to heart and improve yourself. If she was wrong, ignore her. Easy as that.

Thank you.

[beefche]

I'm new to this site, but I really don't get why I'm called juvenile because of my view on having kids.

Hey, welcome to an internet forum! The place where people can call you juvenile in one breath and in the next thread call you a wizened muse!

[Vort]

Hey, welcome to an internet forum! The place where people can call you juvenile in one breath and in the next thread call you a wizened muse!

How come no one has ever called me a wizened muse? (And don't say it's the avatar, Beefche.)

[Dravin]

Because curmudgeon fits better?

Hey, welcome to an internet forum! The place where people can call you juvenile in one breath and in the next thread call you a wizened muse!

You should have gone with it being a complement on his youthfulness.