Could Christ have........

[bytor2112]

We know that the Savior was perfect....sinless. We know that he grew from grace to grace and we know the Lucifer sought to tempt him.

Could Christ have fallen and sinned? If he had given in to temptation, would the plan of salvation been frustrated....temporarily or permanently or not at all. Would he have been able to repent? If so how?

[Justice]

My first impression is that he could have. And, if He had then the Father's plan would have been permanently frustrated in this eternal round.

[bytor2112]

So, what would have happened to mankind? Would the Father have just terminated life and waited till the next Eternal round? Who might have been chosen as a Savior? Was there aback up plan in place?

I marvel at the fact that HE was sinless. Amazing. Particularly when we think of all the possible sins....omission and commission.

[john doe]

Your question sparked another question to my mind: When Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and his parents searched for 3 days before finding Him in the temple teaching the rabbis, was His failure to tell them where He was a sin? Why, or why not?

[bytor2112]

Is disobedience a sin? Did Adam sin or transgress in the garden?

[Just_A_Guy]

I would venture to say that from Christ's mortal perspective, yes; He could have sinned.

But with the Father's foreknowledge, if He had known Christ would have sinned He never would have sent Christ at all. So, from God's perspective, there was never any doubt as to the results of Christ's life, ministry, and Atonement.

[Vanhin]

I do believe the Son of Man is an agent unto himself, like I believe the Man of Holiness is also. Jesus Christ was chosen as the Redeemer of mankind because He was "like unto God" from the beginning in all qualities except He did not have a glorified body. (Abraham 3:22-28) Since, in intelligence, Christ was like the Father, His word was His bond. This fact has allowed endless generations of earths and heavens to come and pass away, and countless inhabitants thereof to enter exaltation far in advance of the actual performance of the Atonement; which atonement we are privileged to have occurred on this very earth - for all mankind, nonetheless.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:31-39)

In deed, Adam received the gospel of Jesus Christ, and was able to repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, thereby receiving a remission of his sins, long before actual completion of the Atonement (Moses 6). It was as if it had already occurred. Hence, it was an infinite and eternal atonement, reaching all generations of time and eternity.

The Prophet Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon testified the following in our scriptures:

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

And I concur.

Regards,

Vanhin

[pam]

What's the difference between sin and transgression?

[Justice]

Pam: They are both broken law, but sin is willful with knowledge of consequences and choosing anyway.

A general idea is that a transgression would be like driving over the speed limit not knowing you were, while a sin would be driving over the limit while staring at the sign.

Let's say you borrow something from a friend and you forget you have it and never return it. Compare that to borrowing something and deciding you like it so you keep it. The result is the same, you keep your friend's item. But, one was not with willful intention while the other is.

Other definitions I've heard are when you break a law that is not a moral law for a better purpose, or when you break a law because you are unable to keep. There may be some truth to all of them.

I do know that willful rebellion is sin, so I'd say generally that anything unwillful is transgression.

Bytor: Mankind would have been lost and fallen forever. The soul of man cannot be destroyed. Separation from God is the death of the soul, with no chance to be redeemed back into His presence.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Justice

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree that Christ had the potential to sin -- that's what made him a good and credible example to us. That's what brings meaning to the three temptations that Satan put before Christ.

If he had've sinned, what would've happened? We know that God has foreknowledge which allowed him to pick Jesus as the one who would save mankind with full confidence. Having foreknowledge, without predetermining events pretty much assured that Jesus would come and be successful.

[tubaloth]

Could Christ have fallen and sinned?

Yes Agency was still there. You can't make choices unless you have the freedom to choose. The choice to become savior, and to fulfill it was always Christ's choice.

If he had given in to temptation, would the plan of salvation been frustrated....temporarily or permanently or not at all.

That we don't really know. The reason Christ had to be sinless is because he didn't fall under the demands of Justice. Once Christ was part of those benefiting from the Atonement then it became more of paying his own debt. So then the Atonement would have been done out of selfishness and not out of Love. In theory because Christ was still an eternal being could have paid the price. (he is the only one that can give up the ghost). But its a matter if that would have satisfy an eternal law. Even more if Christ (being eternal) breaks an eternal law, can his punishment be enough? We don't know.

Even more we don't know if there was a plan B. Was there somebody else also perfect? As of what we are taught we don't know, and I don't think there was.

But like it was pointed out. Heavenly Father knows the end from the beginning, so he already know that this plan of salvation is going to work! He already knew Christ would be successful, and probably the reason why He chose Him.

Would he have been able to repent? If so how?

The probably is the killer question. We don't know. If all came down to Christ then maybe he could pay for his own sins. If somebody else stepped in that was sinless then in theory he could use that atonement.

When Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and his parents searched for 3 days before finding Him in the temple teaching the rabbis, was His failure to tell them where He was a sin? Why, or why not?

Sin is breaking a commandment of God. I have to assume Christ knew at this stage what his purpose was on earth. In a sense Christ knew what commandment he was following (To do his Fathers Businesses). Now is it still a sin to obey a greater commandment and disobey a smaller commandment? For this case probably not in Heavenly Father's eyes. Thats not to say Christ didn't tell somebody where he was, and they being mortal forgot (I mean it was 3 days). We just don't know.

[OneEternalSonata]

I do know that willful rebellion is sin, so I'd say generally that anything unwillful is transgression.

Adam & Eve knew the commandment/law prior to eating the fruit, and willfully ate. Yet, Church leaders teach they transgressed. As I like your comments, what are your thoughts on that, Justice?

I found this definition: Transgression-The exceeding of due bounds or limits.

The American Heritage® Dictionary, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Also: Transgress-To pass over or beyond any limit; to surpass.

Webster 1828 Dictionary, Noah Webster

[Justice]

I agree, they did know them.

Understanding this is very difficult because you have to put your mind in a place it is not. We understand law also, but we also know the consequences of our actions. Adam and Eve did not fully understand the consequences, namely "death." They were immortal and did not understand the consequences. There's no way for someone immortal to know what it means to die. Just as it is impossible for us to fully realize what the infinite and eternal are as finite beings.

In order to be guilty of sin we have to know the law, understand what breaking the law means (or the punishement), and opt for the punishement instead of obeying. It is a choice we make with full knowledge of the consequences. In this mortal life we come to understand death at a fairly young age. We see plants, animals and people die, and have a good idea of what it means.

It's like a young child when they are told not to touch a hot stove. They understand what the words mean, but do not fully understand the consequences until they are actually burned. Then, they are in a position to make the choice for themselves to not touch the stove because they do not want to suffer the consequences again.

We are in a state of death while mortal; we are dying day by day. Because of Christ this death is overcome. We can choose Him to overcome our spiritual death as well.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Could Christ have fallen and sinned?

Of course he could; he has agency as do we. He did everything of his own volition even though he was following the Father's will.

To me these type of questions are meaningless once we realize that the Father is Omniscient--He knows the future as well as He knows the past. He sent Jesus because He knew He was prepared, able, and willing to atone for mankind. Just try to comprehend what it means to be omniscient, and you'll be able to answer these type of questions (e.g. what if Satan decides to be good? Can God sin?)

[Justice]

In fact, Alma 42 is the best scripture on this:

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

All of 42:

Alma 42

[Traveler]

First: Jesus did not come into the world as a fallen being. All others have fallen but Jesus was the one exception which made the atonement possible. Because the rest of us have fallen we cannot merit repentance or redemptions. We cannot atone for sin. Because Jesus was not fallen, he had great advantage in withstanding the temptations of Satan. Being able to withstand temptation would seem to be a requirement of anyone that is able to live with G-d in heaven. It is true that while we are fallen that temptation and sin have advantage and it seems “impossible” to live without sin and to keep all the commandments. We have all seen this debated by even the most devout believers that are sure keeping all the commandments are impossible. This is because of a lack of faith and being spiritually borne of G-d.

This leads into point #2. That is; that it is impossible to be borne of the spirit of G-d and to sin. This is because the two are mutually exclusive. Like light and darkness the two cannot abide together. Where there is light there cannot be darkness and where there is darkness there cannot be light. Jesus could chose to sin but in order to do so he must reject the spirit of G-d within him.

And this leads into point #3. That is; that we could not know evil while the spirit of G-d was within us and therefore man must fall to know good from evil. But then how could Jesus come to a knowledge of good and evil? Because Jesus took upon him the sin of others and suffered even unto death. Therefore Jesus had knowledge of good and evil. This is a most important point because man cannot have knowledge of good and evil until they suffer with Christ in taking upon them the sins of others. Therefore, this is the great plan that all can experience and know good from evil and therefore become like G-d. In the first place having fallen and being subject to evil we know of evil (and Jesus knows of evil because having suffered because of the sin and evil of others) and then to know good which is not complete (or perfect) until that which is good and sanctified suffers for others. It is the glory of G-d to bring about immortality and eternal life of others and by so suffering with Christ for the benefit of others we too become like G-d. This is the Great Plan of Salvation.

The Traveler

[Snow]

First: Jesus did not come into the world as a fallen being. All others have fallen but Jesus was the one exception which made the atonement possible.

Not exactly.

Christ, being mortal, lived in the same fallen physical state as the rest of us.

[Moksha]

What's the difference between sin and transgression?

I think you need a seminary graduation certificate or else hold the rank of an Eagle Scout for the latter.

:)

[Justice]

Christ, being mortal, lived in the same fallen physical state as the rest of us.

Agreed.

This makes His perfect life even more amazing.

[ozzy]

So here's a related question. So we know that Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament who gave all the commandments. So if he had sinned, he would have broken his own commandment. Does that mean that had he sinned, it would have negated his commandment so he hadn't sinned?

[Snow]

So here's a related question. So we know that Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament who gave all the commandments. So if he had sinned, he would have broken his own commandment. Does that mean that had he sinned, it would have negated his commandment so he hadn't sinned?

Yes - that's exactly what it means.

[ozzy]

So no, he couldn't have sinned.

[TrueBlue32]

Jesus was fallen. He was made a little lower than the angels. He was in a position of being God then became mortal, partially anyways. Lets not forget he was divine also. Probably had far better communication with the Holy Ghost better than any of us. He being infinitely smarter than us even as he walked the earth would enable Him a greater ability to recognize sin of any type. It's hard to know just how much knowledge Christ had. He knew enough that he could do nothing except that which he has SEEN the Father do. By implication Christ has already had great visions on greater scales than that of Abraham in the PoGP even to the point of seeing the Father and His earthly ministry. I don't think it's comprehensible to know just how much Christ knew. What's also amazing, knowing Himself, his standing with God, and His position he was still able to be humble even to the point of washing the feet of the Apostles because His love of them and us was so great.

[Snow]

So no, he couldn't have sinned.

That sounds satanic - what that not Lucifer's plan to remove the ability to sin?

[sulli]

So, what would have happened to mankind? Would the Father have just terminated life and waited till the next Eternal round? Who might have been chosen as a Savior? Was there aback up plan in place?

I marvel at the fact that HE was sinless. Amazing. Particularly when we think of all the possible sins....omission and commission.

Is it really that amazing that he was sinless? He was half-god. . .