Telling kids Santa is real

[pam]

I just AMAZED that Pammy agreed with Pale right there!

Miracles do happen..just don't get used to it.

[pam]

Well let me say this. It matters not one ounce whether people want to have their children believing in Santa Claus or not. That's up to the parents. I don't believe either side is right or wrong. Whatever works. As long as we aren't condemning the parents for the opposite side or opposite opinion on the matter.

[Vort]

Well let me say this. It matters not one ounce whether people want to have their children believing in Santa Claus or not. That's up to the parents. I don't believe either side is right or wrong. Whatever works. As long as we aren't condemning the parents for the opposite side or opposite opinion on the matter.

Clearly, the "side" teaching their kids that there is an actual Santa Claus is wrong. Or do you think there really is a magical obese philanthropist living at the north pole?

As for condemning such parents: I do not condemn them. That is not my place. But I find it interesting that you would be so explicit in justifying them. Would you likewise justify those parents who teach their children that men (or women) are intrinsically evil and not to be trusted, or that sex is primarily a recreational tool, or that getting drunk is an acceptable pastime? Would you say that they are not "right or wrong", or that they should not be condemned for teaching their children such things? Does it matter an ounce?

Perhaps most children derive no harm from belief in Santa, as it is claimed that most people derive no harm from drinking alcohol. But clearly, some are harmed. How many cases of children being damaged by belief in Santa Claus would you require to rethink your position? Or is no number too large a price to pay for the wonderful fun of believing in Santa?

[pam]

How am I justifying them? Just because I don't see anything wrong with it doesn't make it right or wrong.

You might think it's harmful to tell your kids that there is a Santa. I don't. I don't believe that makes you right any more than it makes me wrong.

People have different parenting styles. So what? Yes I agree that some might not be able to handle finding out that what they thought was true isn't. So does that mean a blanket statement to all parents should be...Don't teach your child that there is a Santa Claus because it might cause damage?

I think a fine line can be drawn in how you present it. While at the same time teaching children the true meaning of Christmas. Children love fantasy. My kids did. But I didn't make it so overboard that they were scared to death that if they did one little thing wrong they would be on Santa's naughty list and not get anything for Christmas.

Again..what works for some parents may not work for another. What one parent might think is better for their child in what they are taught regarding it may not be the same for another.

That's why I'm saying don't condemn either side for their way of thinking. I really don't believe there is one right answer to it.

[pam]

I now have a 20 year old daughter and 18 year old twin boys. We still have our "Santa Plate" for the cookies and mug for the milk. We still put those out every year. Now it's become more of a joke to see who's going to get up first in the middle of the night to take the bite out of the cookie to make it look like Santa has been there. All in fun and it's become a family tradition.

[Bini]

Ace posts, Pam.

And. That's a cute family tradition that you've started!

[JohnnyRudick]

I now have a 20 year old daughter and 18 year old twin boys. We still have our "Santa Plate" for the cookies and mug for the milk. We still put those out every year. Now it's become more of a joke to see who's going to get up first in the middle of the night to take the bite out of the cookie to make it look like Santa has been there. All in fun and it's become a family tradition.

My one prayer about all this is that they don't also secretly give a wink and a nod

when the subject of "Jesus" comes up as we are finding out they do in so many

homes of our young people any more.

Only "playing Church".

Just a worry:(

Bro. Rudick

[pam]

Clearly, the "side" teaching their kids that there is an actual Santa Claus is wrong. Or do you think there really is a magical obese philanthropist living at the north pole?

As for condemning such parents: I do not condemn them. That is not my place. But I find it interesting that you would be so explicit in justifying them. Would you likewise justify those parents who teach their children that men (or women) are intrinsically evil and not to be trusted, or that sex is primarily a recreational tool, or that getting drunk is an acceptable pastime? Would you say that they are not "right or wrong", or that they should not be condemned for teaching their children such things? Does it matter an ounce?

Perhaps most children derive no harm from belief in Santa, as it is claimed that most people derive no harm from drinking alcohol. But clearly, some are harmed. How many cases of children being damaged by belief in Santa Claus would you require to rethink your position? Or is no number too large a price to pay for the wonderful fun of believing in Santa?

No Vort you don't condemn those parents but yet why do I feel like this entire post is condemning me for my opinion? Do I not have a right to my opinion as you are so openly stating yours? Obviously you feel your opinion is more correct than mine..when I have stated twice now I don't think either one is correct nor do I feel either is wrong. I think it's a parents choice. Plain and simple.

[Vort]

No Vort you don't condemn those parents but yet why do I feel like this entire post is condemning me for my opinion? Do I not have a right to my opinion as you are so openly stating yours? Obviously you feel your opinion is more correct than mine..when I have stated twice now I don't think either one is correct nor do I feel either is wrong. I think it's a parents choice. Plain and simple.

You ask a good question, Pam. I will happily answer your question if you will actually read and consider what I write, rather than just glance over it. I have had too many posts into which I've put a lot of effort but that end up just getting a cursory glance (or completely ignored). For you, I am happy to write up a response -- if you really want to read it.

[pam]

Actually Vort..I have read them twice.

[pam]

And also I'm done. Freak..we're arguing about Santa Claus. hahahahahaha

[Vort]

Actually Vort..I have read them twice.

I did not mean to accuse you of not reading my posts. I just wanted to know if you were really interested in an answer before investing the time in writing it up.

Consider a hypothetical situation:

There exists a society where parents routinely cut off the tip of the small toe of their newborn infants. Where this tradition started is unimportant; the point is, that's what they do. Now, there are some parents who refuse to cut off the tip of their newborn's toe. They say it's unnecessary, dangerous, and stupid. Other parents warn them that their children risk being seen as freaks for not having their toes properly cut. They argue that cutting the tip of the toe reduces incidents of hangnail, a painful malady that has been known to become infected.

Now, in this situation, someone writes: "It matters not one ounce whether people want to have their children's toes cut or not. That's up to the parents. I don't believe either side is right or wrong. Whatever works. As long as we aren't condemning the parents for the opposite side or opposite opinion on the matter."

Do you agree?

I do. In a sense, at least. I do not believe that God would consider any parents in that culture to be doing anything wrong. So the statement above is absolutely true: The choice is the parents', and there is nothing morally wrong in the eyes of God with doing it.

But it's still not a good thing to do. You will certainly agree that ANY rational person raised outside that culture would look at the infant toe-cutting practice with abhorrence. The ONLY reason those in the culture don't see the bizarreness of their practice is that they have been raised with it and conditioned to it.

(Of course, our culture does EXACTLY this, except we cut off the end of our infants' penises instead of the end of their little toes. Had I cut off the end of my oldest son's toe, I would have been arrested, charged with, and convicted of child abuse. Instead, I paid someone to cut off the end of his penis, and the law justified me. So, I believe, did God. But I don't justify myself. If I could make the choice now, I'd cut off his toe instead. But I digress.)

I am sure that you see the comparison I am drawing. I also expect that your response might be, "But cutting off body parts is abusive. Teaching about Santa Claus is harmless." I could disprove the "harmless" part in many instances, but instead let me ask: Why don't you teach your children about Stinky Steve, the flatulent hobo that watches children while they sleep and gives them candy for keeping their room clean? "Clean your room -- Stinky Steve is watching you!"

(And no fair saying, "Sure, Stinky Steve would be great! We'd have a ball laughing it up!" I mean that you teach your children that Stinky Steve is a real, actual, living being that seriously and for true watches them all night and makes sure their room is clean.)

"That would be absurd!" you probably would exclaim. But is it really any more absurd than the idea of Santa Claus, an obese elf that owns flying reindeer and flies at light speed around the globe distributing gifts through various chimneys?

The only reason that you or anyone else thinks Santa Claus is an acceptable thing to teach to our children as a true, living being is because of tradition. And the only reason you do not perceive that tradition as absurd in the extreme is because you grew up with it.

But what of it? Maybe everything I have written is true. So what? you ask. Even if Santa Claus is as absurd as I say, what harm does it cause to tell the kiddies he's real?

Here's the harm. Santa Claus is God. He has Godlike power: He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. HE KNOWS IF YOU'VE BEEN BAD OR GOOD. He loves all the little children, and if they are good, he gives them gifts because he loves them.

Surely you see the potential confusion in a child's mind from this kind of teaching. Surely you can imagine that it would not be a rare thing for a child to be devastated when s/he discovers that Santa is not real. And surely it cannot be that rare for a child to decide that s/he won't be fooled again.

I have no problem with Santa as a game. We "do" Santa at our house, too. But I never, ever, ever tell my children that Santa is "real". They will never hear that sort of intentional mistruth from me.

Tell me: Suppose Jesus Christ walked the earth in mortality in 21st century America. Suppose he had children that he was bringing up in the light of his Father. Would Jesus tell his children that Santa was bringing them presents? I don't believe it.

So, there's my explanation.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Vort

[JohnnyRudick]

No Vort you don't condemn those parents but yet why do I feel like this entire post is condemning me for my opinion? Do I not have a right to my opinion as you are so openly stating yours? Obviously you feel your opinion is more correct than mine..when I have stated twice now I don't think either one is correct nor do I feel either is wrong. I think it's a parents choice. Plain and simple.

Pam I am not condemning you in this.

I just believe that you and others like you are

"Caught in a trap.

And can't walk out"

Because you love it too much baby.

Don't ya know that your

Caught in a trap.

And can't walk out

Because you love it too much baby.

Don't ya know that your

Caught in a trap.

And can't walk out

Because you love it too much baby.

Don't ya know that your

Caught in a trap.

And can't walk out

Because you love it too much baby.

Just one opinion though:D

[pam]

That's rather condescending. Yeh it's nice to know that I'm not allowed an opinion. But then again I'm not being condemned. Just being told my opinion has no relevance and is wrong. But that's okay. We did the Santa thing and wow..amazing..my kids came out of it with no damage done. It's what I chose to do with my kids and I have no regrets.

Just like those that want to do otherwise...I have no problem with that at all. If that's what a parent feels..honestly that's awesome.

Edited December 11, 2009 by pam

[JohnnyRudick]

Yeh it's nice to know that I'm not allowed an opinion. But then again I'm not being condemned. Just being told my opinion has no relevance and is wrong. But that's okay. We did the Santa thing and wow..amazing..my kids came out of it with no damage done. It's what I chose to do with my kids and I have no regrets.

Just like those that want to do otherwise...I have no problem with that at all. If that's what a parent feels..honestly that's awesome.

Just a pullin' on your foot (a little) Pam.

You know I love ya:)

Merry Christmas:D

Ho, ho, ho:santa:

Bro. Rudick

[mightynancy]

The difference is that the Spirit will testify of Christ.

Santa Claus is a fun fantasy.

Kids can tell the difference.

[JohnnyRudick]

The difference is that the Spirit will testify of Christ.

Santa Claus is a fun fantasy.

Kids can tell the difference.

Of course we have to realize we are not only speaking of the children of the Church,

but children everywhere in all circumstances.

When raised that Christmas is only a fun time, where Santa brings "stuff".

The Spirit is not recognized or even wanted.

Yes, years later they do learn the difference when the Spirit bears them witness.

Yet we take part in the ruse having faith that we are immune.

OK.

[Guest]

I did not mean to accuse you of not reading my posts. I just wanted to know if you were really interested in an answer before investing the time in writing it up.

Consider a hypothetical situation:

There exists a society where parents routinely cut off the tip of the small toe of their newborn infants. Where this tradition started is unimportant; the point is, that's what they do. Now, there are some parents who refuse to cut off the tip of their newborn's toe. They say it's unnecessary, dangerous, and stupid. Other parents warn them that their children risk being seen as freaks for not having their toes properly cut. They argue that cutting the tip of the toe reduces incidents of hangnail, a painful malady that has been known to become infected.

Now, in this situation, someone writes: "It matters not one ounce whether people want to have their children's toes cut or not. That's up to the parents. I don't believe either side is right or wrong. Whatever works. As long as we aren't condemning the parents for the opposite side or opposite opinion on the matter."

Do you agree?

I do. In a sense, at least. I do not believe that God would consider any parents in that culture to be doing anything wrong. So the statement above is absolutely true: The choice is the parents', and there is nothing morally wrong in the eyes of God with doing it.

But it's still not a good thing to do. You will certainly agree that ANY rational person raised outside that culture would look at the infant toe-cutting practice with abhorrence. The ONLY reason those in the culture don't see the bizarreness of their practice is that they have been raised with it and conditioned to it.

(Of course, our culture does EXACTLY this, except we cut off the end of our infants' penises instead of the end of their little toes. Had I cut off the end of my oldest son's toe, I would have been arrested, charged with, and convicted of child abuse. Instead, I paid someone to cut off the end of his penis, and the law justified me. So, I believe, did God. But I don't justify myself. If I could make the choice now, I'd cut off his toe instead. But I digress.)

I am sure that you see the comparison I am drawing. I also expect that your response might be, "But cutting off body parts is abusive. Teaching about Santa Claus is harmless." I could disprove the "harmless" part in many instances, but instead let me ask: Why don't you teach your children about Stinky Steve, the flatulent hobo that watches children while they sleep and gives them candy for keeping their room clean? "Clean your room -- Stinky Steve is watching you!"

(And no fair saying, "Sure, Stinky Steve would be great! We'd have a ball laughing it up!" I mean that you teach your children that Stinky Steve is a real, actual, living being that seriously and for true watches them all night and makes sure their room is clean.)

"That would be absurd!" you probably would exclaim. But is it really any more absurd than the idea of Santa Claus, an obese elf that owns flying reindeer and flies at light speed around the globe distributing gifts through various chimneys?

The only reason that you or anyone else thinks Santa Claus is an acceptable thing to teach to our children as a true, living being is because of tradition. And the only reason you do not perceive that tradition as absurd in the extreme is because you grew up with it.

But what of it? Maybe everything I have written is true. So what? you ask. Even if Santa Claus is as absurd as I say, what harm does it cause to tell the kiddies he's real?

Here's the harm. Santa Claus is God. He has Godlike power: He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. HE KNOWS IF YOU'VE BEEN BAD OR GOOD. He loves all the little children, and if they are good, he gives them gifts because he loves them.

Surely you see the potential confusion in a child's mind from this kind of teaching. Surely you can imagine that it would not be a rare thing for a child to be devastated when s/he discovers that Santa is not real. And surely it cannot be that rare for a child to decide that s/he won't be fooled again.

I have no problem with Santa as a game. We "do" Santa at our house, too. But I never, ever, ever tell my children that Santa is "real". They will never hear that sort of intentional mistruth from me.

Tell me: Suppose Jesus Christ walked the earth in mortality in 21st century America. Suppose he had children that he was bringing up in the light of his Father. Would Jesus tell his children that Santa was bringing them presents? I don't believe it.

So, there's my explanation.

Here's my response. I am putting my neck out there because I know for a fact that this post is going to be dissected line by line and responded to in bullet points by Vort and I just don't have the stamina for that kind of debate. But, I'm just going to put my side of things out there because, in my opinion, Vort's principles, though admirable and on the right side of doctrine, is too rigid for me.

Okay, I will not make general comments because I don't want to speak for every single child/parent out there.

Children are not like computers where it will only learn what you program into it. Children learn by myriads of experiences - good and bad. A big part of this learning is fantasy/fiction versus reality. As a matter of fact, abstraction is a giant part of computational thinking (taught in computer science!).

But first, let me express to you that Santa IS REAL. He is rooted on a real flesh blood person - Bishop Nicholas of Myra who is recognized as a Saint although not formally canonized by the Roman Catholic church (he was a saint before eastern and western churches split). His stories of generosity may have been passed on as legends but a lot of them are rooted in real historical events.

Okay, so St. Nicholas became commercialized as Santa and the flying reindeers.

To teach "Santa is Real" without the benefit of grounding it in St. Nicholas might be too "disney" and I would agree with Vort that it would be too elaborate a fantasy to play. It would be too much like pretending Mickey Mouse is a real mouse...

But, at the same time, parents know their kids best and if they ONLY teach Santa and not teach the child basic fantasy versus fiction skills then, yeah, that would be very harmful. It will be akin to "brainwashing" that we are currently discussing in another thread.

The big difference between Santa and toe-cutting is that Santa is allowed to naturally transcend out of the reality into fantasy as the child matures. When my kids go to Disney, they see the Power Rangers do their act. I don't tell them these are "fake Rangers". I tell them, sure, they're the Power Rangers (not some substitute) and let them decide on their own what to make of it. But, I teach them at every opportunity that there's not really such things as "super powers" and that there's a big difference between "Only on TV" and reality. My kids don't go out jumping off buildings thinking they could fly because they saw the Power Rangers do it on TV!

Now, compare that with teaching about Jesus. So, they learn about Jesus and we tell them stories about Jesus and how he died on the cross and rose from the dead. Okay, that can be akin to "super powers". So, what's the difference? Technically, nothing. Basically, my child will still have to grow up and figure out if Jesus is fact or fiction. If they decide he is fiction, then that is their free agency.

But see... that's the thing - I don't teach my kids what is real and what is not. I teach my kids HOW TO RECOGNIZE what is real and what is not.

Edited December 11, 2009 by anatess

[Guest]

Food for thought:

My parents taught me that if I run around while eating - or even immediately after eating, I will get appendicitis. My dad even took out the encyclopedia and traced the path of the food particle from the mouth down the esophagus to the stomach, to the intestines and (he shakes the page) if you move the intestines too much, the food particle can get stuck inside the appendix! So, all of us kids sit down for meals - that is breakfast, lunch, and dinner - around the dining table for at least 30 minutes.

That was my dad's idea of keeping us on the dining table without the desire to mad-dash to play. He has an hour and 30 minutes at least a day of our complete attention.

It never occurred to me to question this during biology classes. I kept on believing this until I was 21 years old! My older brother went to medical school and never "shared his realization" with me. He thought it was funny that I still thought it was real.

I think it was a great thing my dad did to get us behaved. I wouldn't do it to my children - not my style. But I do appreciate why he did it.

[talisyn]

My daughter has believed there is a Santa Claus for, well, all her life. She's been wondering about it for a few years now, but is willing to go along with the fantasy. Life is filled with too many stark realities. There has to be a time when children know that anything is possible. There must be a time in a child's life when fairies play and pixie dust makes you fly, when they can look up at a snow-filled night and know that wonderful things exist. Santa Claus is the medium for that for many children. I say let the jolly old elf give a few gifts to the small ones. They will grow up soon enough.

Newseum - Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus says it much better than I can.

[Gwen]

i didn't read every post but i'm going to jump in here.... lol.... i'm not a santa pusher, school teaches about santa and i teach about god... i have no problems with those roles.....

our branch pres (recently called) decided we would not have santa at our branch christmas party this yr..... ppl are not happy, i'm afraid we'll have a revolt on our hands.... i made sure to state publicly that i support him 100% (i have 75% of the primary so i figure i should get the biggest say anyway lol); i also talked to him privately about why i support him with his decision.

i have no problem with parents who do a full blown santa thing.... just not what i do.

[nbblood]

I did not mean to accuse you of not reading my posts. I just wanted to know if you were really interested in an answer before investing the time in writing it up.

Consider a hypothetical situation:

There exists a society where parents routinely cut off the tip of the small toe of their newborn infants. Where this tradition started is unimportant; the point is, that's what they do. Now, there are some parents who refuse to cut off the tip of their newborn's toe. They say it's unnecessary, dangerous, and stupid. Other parents warn them that their children risk being seen as freaks for not having their toes properly cut. They argue that cutting the tip of the toe reduces incidents of hangnail, a painful malady that has been known to become infected.

Now, in this situation, someone writes: "It matters not one ounce whether people want to have their children's toes cut or not. That's up to the parents. I don't believe either side is right or wrong. Whatever works. As long as we aren't condemning the parents for the opposite side or opposite opinion on the matter."

Do you agree?

I do. In a sense, at least. I do not believe that God would consider any parents in that culture to be doing anything wrong. So the statement above is absolutely true: The choice is the parents', and there is nothing morally wrong in the eyes of God with doing it.

But it's still not a good thing to do. You will certainly agree that ANY rational person raised outside that culture would look at the infant toe-cutting practice with abhorrence. The ONLY reason those in the culture don't see the bizarreness of their practice is that they have been raised with it and conditioned to it.

(Of course, our culture does EXACTLY this, except we cut off the end of our infants' penises instead of the end of their little toes. Had I cut off the end of my oldest son's toe, I would have been arrested, charged with, and convicted of child abuse. Instead, I paid someone to cut off the end of his penis, and the law justified me. So, I believe, did God. But I don't justify myself. If I could make the choice now, I'd cut off his toe instead. But I digress.)

I am sure that you see the comparison I am drawing. I also expect that your response might be, "But cutting off body parts is abusive. Teaching about Santa Claus is harmless." I could disprove the "harmless" part in many instances, but instead let me ask: Why don't you teach your children about Stinky Steve, the flatulent hobo that watches children while they sleep and gives them candy for keeping their room clean? "Clean your room -- Stinky Steve is watching you!"

(And no fair saying, "Sure, Stinky Steve would be great! We'd have a ball laughing it up!" I mean that you teach your children that Stinky Steve is a real, actual, living being that seriously and for true watches them all night and makes sure their room is clean.)

"That would be absurd!" you probably would exclaim. But is it really any more absurd than the idea of Santa Claus, an obese elf that owns flying reindeer and flies at light speed around the globe distributing gifts through various chimneys?

The only reason that you or anyone else thinks Santa Claus is an acceptable thing to teach to our children as a true, living being is because of tradition. And the only reason you do not perceive that tradition as absurd in the extreme is because you grew up with it.

But what of it? Maybe everything I have written is true. So what? you ask. Even if Santa Claus is as absurd as I say, what harm does it cause to tell the kiddies he's real?

Here's the harm. Santa Claus is God. He has Godlike power: He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. HE KNOWS IF YOU'VE BEEN BAD OR GOOD. He loves all the little children, and if they are good, he gives them gifts because he loves them.

Surely you see the potential confusion in a child's mind from this kind of teaching. Surely you can imagine that it would not be a rare thing for a child to be devastated when s/he discovers that Santa is not real. And surely it cannot be that rare for a child to decide that s/he won't be fooled again.

I have no problem with Santa as a game. We "do" Santa at our house, too. But I never, ever, ever tell my children that Santa is "real". They will never hear that sort of intentional mistruth from me.

Tell me: Suppose Jesus Christ walked the earth in mortality in 21st century America. Suppose he had children that he was bringing up in the light of his Father. Would Jesus tell his children that Santa was bringing them presents? I don't believe it.

So, there's my explanation.

Wow....you know there's not an epidemic of people growing up mentally damaged by a false belief in Santa Claus right? You don't think that Jesus Christ would have a sense of fun and adventure by playing this game (and that's what it amounts to, a fun, albeit deceptive, game with children that lasts until they're about 7 or so) that we call Santa Claus? I rather think he would enjoy the spirit of anonymous giving and the fact that it brings families together and the light in children's eyes as they dream about this remarkable event. Even if that means misleading them to believe that Santa is real (for a little while).

Yes, it is very possible to play the Santa Claus game and still bring the spirit and teach the true meaning of Christmas. Everything doesn't always have to be solemn and somber. Fun and twinkling eyes of ambitious young children are ok. Like I said, the game is up very soon. I don't know of a single person anywhere that has been mentally or spiritually scarred by a false belief in Santa Claus.

I really think if Jesus Christ would come to the ward Christmas party, he would volunteer to don the red suit himself.

I also think there comes a point when it's time to abandon the "real" Santa Claus and for kids to move on to a more mature perception of the holiday season. I think responsible parents know when that is, based on their unique situation. Really, it's gonna be ok.

Here's the harm. Santa Claus is God. He has Godlike power: He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. HE KNOWS IF YOU'VE BEEN BAD OR GOOD. He loves all the little children, and if they are good, he gives them gifts because he loves them.

Surely you see the potential confusion in a child's mind from this kind of teaching. Surely you can imagine that it would not be a rare thing for a child to be devastated when s/he discovers that Santa is not real. And surely it cannot be that rare for a child to decide that s/he won't be fooled again.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. I don't think you give children enough credit for sorting through the Santa Claus thing. When the game's up, they know it. It's a seasonal thing that comes by every year, not a daily relationship in our lives. It's not something we talk about during FHE every week. It's not something we attend church meetings about. In short, it's not something that's an integral part of our lives. I think making the correlation between losing belief in Santa Claus and losing belief in God is, at very, very best......a long, hard, barely-can-see-the-other-end, stretch. Like I said, not buying it.

Of course, to each their own. Sorry, gotta run. My 2 1/2 year old is expecting Santa to bring her candy canes. Gotta make it happen and have fun with it.

Edited December 11, 2009 by nbblood

[JohnnyRudick]

Here's my response. I am putting my neck out there because I know for a fact that this post is going to be dissected line by line and responded to in bullet points by Vort and I just don't have the stamina for that kind of debate. But, I'm just going to put my side of things out there because, in my opinion, Vort's principles, though admirable and on the right side of doctrine, is too rigid for me.

Okay, I will not make general comments because I don't want to speak for every single child/parent out there.

Children are not like computers where it will only learn what you program into it. Children learn by myriads of experiences - good and bad. A big part of this learning is fantasy/fiction versus reality. As a matter of fact, abstraction is a giant part of computational thinking (taught in computer science!).

But first, let me express to you that Santa IS REAL. He is rooted on a real flesh blood person - Bishop Nicholas of Myra who is recognized as a Saint although not formally canonized by the Roman Catholic church (he was a saint before eastern and western churches split). His stories of generosity may have been passed on as legends but a lot of them are rooted in real historical events.

Okay, so St. Nicholas became commercialized as Santa and the flying reindeers.

To teach "Santa is Real" without the benefit of grounding it in St. Nicholas might be too "disney" and I would agree with Vort that it would be too elaborate a fantasy to play. It would be too much like pretending Mickey Mouse is a real mouse...

But, at the same time, parents know their kids best and if they ONLY teach Santa and not teach the child basic fantasy versus fiction skills then, yeah, that would be very harmful. It will be akin to "brainwashing" that we are currently discussing in another thread.

The big difference between Santa and toe-cutting is that Santa is allowed to naturally transcend out of the reality into fantasy as the child matures. When my kids go to Disney, they see the Power Rangers do their act. I don't tell them these are "fake Rangers". I tell them, sure, they're the Power Rangers (not some substitute) and let them decide on their own what to make of it. But, I teach them at every opportunity that there's not really such things as "super powers" and that there's a big difference between "Only on TV" and reality. My kids don't go out jumping off buildings thinking they could fly because they saw the Power Rangers do it on TV!

Now, compare that with teaching about Jesus. So, they learn about Jesus and we tell them stories about Jesus and how he died on the cross and rose from the dead. Okay, that can be akin to "super powers". So, what's the difference? Technically, nothing. Basically, my child will still have to grow up and figure out if Jesus is fact or fiction. If they decide he is fiction, then that is their free agency.

But see... that's the thing - I don't teach my kids what is real and what is not. I teach my kids HOW TO RECOGNIZE what is real and what is not.

Exactly:)

I agree whole heartedly with you;)

Could not have said it better myself:D

Bro. Rudick

[Vort]

Wow....you know there's not an epidemic of people growing up mentally damaged by a false belief in Santa Claus right?

How would you know this?

You don't think that Jesus Christ would have a sense of fun and adventure by playing this game (and that's what it amounts to, a fun, albeit deceptive, game with children that lasts until they're about 7 or so) that we call Santa Claus?

Correct. I do not believe Jesus would lie to his babies for this type of "fun".

Everything doesn't always have to be solemn and somber. Fun and twinkling eyes of ambitious young children are ok.

Did someone say differently?

I don't know of a single person anywhere that has been mentally or spiritually scarred by a false belief in Santa Claus.

I do. And not just one.

I really think if Jesus Christ would come to the ward Christmas party, he would volunteer to don the red suit himself.

Then the Christ you believe in is a different being from the one I believe in.

Really, it's gonna be ok.

Famous last words.

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.

Buy it or don't, as you wish. The fact remains: Santa Claus is a fiction. Those who teach their children that Santa is an actual being are intentionally deceiving their children.

I don't think you give children enough credit for sorting through the Santa Claus thing. When the game's up, they know it.

Yes, and sometimes it is devastating.

It's a seasonal thing that comes by every year, not a daily relationship in our lives.

Some children are evidently quite a bit more thoughtful and sensitive than you give them credit for.

I think making the correlation between losing belief in Santa Claus and losing belief in God is, at very, very best......a long, hard, barely-can-see-the-other-end, stretch. Like I said, not buying it.

Whether or not you "buy" it is irrelevant. It happens, however much you may wish to claim it does not.

[JohnnyRudick]

i didn't read every post but i'm going to jump in here.... lol.... i'm not a santa pusher, school teaches about santa and i teach about god... i have no problems with those roles.....

our branch pres (recently called) decided we would not have santa at our branch christmas party this yr..... ppl are not happy, i'm afraid we'll have a revolt on our hands.... i made sure to state publicly that i support him 100% (i have 75% of the primary so i figure i should get the biggest say anyway lol); i also talked to him privately about why i support him with his decision.

i have no problem with parents who do a full blown santa thing.... just not what i do.

Well,

I am in there with your Branch Pres.

If a home wished to do the "Santa thing" on their own.

That is up to them.

But I think. . .